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BigD 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 14-Aug-2022 10:38:53
#41 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6480
From: UK

@cdimauro

And yet they're never in stock! Creating artificial demand much? They're great products but 10,000s is PiStorm level numbers not Apollo IMHO = 5,000-7,500 for sure!

Last edited by BigD on 14-Aug-2022 at 10:39 AM.

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OneTimer1 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 14-Aug-2022 11:38:43
#42 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 764
From: Unknown

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
it was reported on a recent thread on EAB.


Hard to check without a link.

If I wrote 15000 on EAB it would be 15000

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
There was grond writing there, which is an Apollo team member AFAIR, that haven't denied it.


If I wrote about using the Vampire as a cure for cancer, they wouldn't deny it.

---

A Vampire V4 SL is IMHO the fastest Amiga clone around, maybe I would buy it if the Apollo team wouldn't act so problematic in public.

After they stopped selling the V2, they nearly dropped all support for it and I have my doubts about USB support on the V4 SL and compatibility with older games. Seeing Gunnar establishing new graphic standards instead of fixing USB support doesn't feel good to me.


Last edited by OneTimer1 on 14-Aug-2022 at 11:44 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 14-Aug-2022 12:08:27
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2814
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

The Z80 was my first introduction to machine code programming. I would say assembly language but I didn't get hold of an actual assembler for some time.

Back then I used to use those 5mm block graph paper booklets that you'd get for primary school maths and hand assemble the code. Hours spent with the opcode reference in the back of the spectrum manual, one of those booklets and a pencil and eraser

Then there was loading it in. You'd usually write a basic program that read an array of data statements and poked them into your chosen location. Make sure you saved that, and the bytes sequence at the address before you dared to run it. I mean it's a step up from punched cards but it makes me laugh when younger developers today complain that languages like C are too "low level".

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cdimauro 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 14-Aug-2022 21:56:33
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2791
From: Germany

@BigD
Quote:

BigD wrote:
@cdimauro

And yet they're never in stock! Creating artificial demand much? They're great products but 10,000s is PiStorm level numbers not Apollo IMHO = 5,000-7,500 for sure!

Which is quite high, anyway.


@OneTimer1
Quote:

OneTimer1 wrote:
Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
it was reported on a recent thread on EAB.


Hard to check without a link.

I only check the posts from the last days on EAB (I'm not registered) and the thread is already out of scope.

The last post there was from Hammer. If you're registered then you can just search his posts and you'll immediately find the thread (Vampire in the title, of course).
Quote:
If I wrote 15000 on EAB it would be 15000

Right.
Quote:
Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
There was grond writing there, which is an Apollo team member AFAIR, that haven't denied it.


If I wrote about using the Vampire as a cure for cancer, they wouldn't deny it.

grond isn't a blind fanatic; rather a serious professional.
Quote:
---

A Vampire V4 SL is IMHO the fastest Amiga clone around, maybe I would buy it if the Apollo team wouldn't act so problematic in public.

After they stopped selling the V2, they nearly dropped all support for it and I have my doubts about USB support on the V4 SL and compatibility with older games. Seeing Gunnar establishing new graphic standards instead of fixing USB support doesn't feel good to me.

The problem with V2 is that it uses a too small FPGA, so there's not much that could be done anymore.

But I agree that if there are serious bugs they should provide fixes.


@Karlos
Quote:

Karlos wrote:
The Z80 was my first introduction to machine code programming. I would say assembly language but I didn't get hold of an actual assembler for some time.

Back then I used to use those 5mm block graph paper booklets that you'd get for primary school maths and hand assemble the code. Hours spent with the opcode reference in the back of the spectrum manual, one of those booklets and a pencil and eraser

Then there was loading it in. You'd usually write a basic program that read an array of data statements and poked them into your chosen location. Make sure you saved that, and the bytes sequence at the address before you dared to run it. I mean it's a step up from punched cards but it makes me laugh when younger developers today complain that languages like C are too "low level".

Similar experience, but with the 6510 and 8-bit Commodore machines (Plus 4, 128).

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cdimauro 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 15-Aug-2022 20:01:06
#45 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2791
From: Germany

@OneTimer1

Quote:

OneTimer1 wrote:
Quote:

cdimauro wrote:
it was reported on a recent thread on EAB.


Hard to check without a link.

The thread popped-up again, so here's the link: http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=107430&page=13

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OneTimer1 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 16-Aug-2022 20:47:52
#46 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 764
From: Unknown

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

The thread popped-up again, so here's the link: http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=107430&page=13


Well the number was brought up by Cego, someone who is acting like a 68080 zealot on the Apollo-Forum, without real access to the Apollo production numbers.
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=1558647&postcount=244

And Promilus took the number 10000 (mentioned by Cego for all 68080 cards) and claimed it to be the number of Vampire V4 SL systems and no one not even grond corrected this (now obvious wrong) number.
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=1558649&postcount=246

Vampire systems are a niche, much more than Amigas or accelerators for the Amiga.
Look here are some numbers for PowerUp cards as example:
https://powerup.amigaworld.de/index.php?lang=en&page=43
They where made during a time when there where far more active Amiga Users than today, you can even search for production number of A4000T systems, you would be astonished how low the numbers where, 10000 Vampire systems seems like a propaganda lie to me, especially after I found out where the unbelievable number of 5000 came from.

Last edited by OneTimer1 on 16-Aug-2022 at 08:55 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 16-Aug-2022 21:11:01
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2791
From: Germany

@OneTimer1: as I've said, grond was part of the team. Why he hasn't correct it, if the numbers were wrong?

Yes, the numbers of PowerUp cards aren't that much. But they were other times.

In fact, in the last years there was a great revival for the 68K platform. You can also see it with the Amiga Mini, which AFAIR has much bigger numbers compared to Vampire.

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agami 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 17-Aug-2022 0:50:10
#48 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1039
From: Melbourne, Australia

10k units of all Vampire SKUs combined makes more sense. I personally have 2x V2 and 2x V4, and I know I am am outlier.

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kolla 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 17-Aug-2022 9:07:32
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2212
From: Trondheim, Norway

There is no "Vampire V4", sigh!

The only Vampire cards are those designed by Majsta, it is HIS brand, and HIS alone!

Last edited by kolla on 17-Aug-2022 at 09:08 AM.

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QBit 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 19-Aug-2022 3:03:18
#50 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Jun-2018
Posts: 217
From: Unknown

@all

I like Toni Wilen.. he doesn`t give a #### what the peple blabber, he just does his thing and delivers!




We need more Toni Wilens and less cdimauros!

Last edited by QBit on 19-Aug-2022 at 03:06 AM.

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Zylesea 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 19-Aug-2022 23:00:36
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2236
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

if these numbers are remotely true - where are all these users? They are surprisingly silent.

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MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

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Karlos 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 19-Aug-2022 23:20:30
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2814
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Zylesea

Well, we're not exactly getting any younger, are we?

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Zylesea 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 19-Aug-2022 23:37:53
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2236
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@Karlos

That's true indeed. And I was more active before, too. But the OS4 and MorphOS users are more visible.

_________________
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MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

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Karlos 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 20-Aug-2022 0:05:15
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2814
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@Zylesea

Maybe the 68K users prefer to spend their time elsewhere. EAB is a pretty busy place, it seems.

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BigD 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 20-Aug-2022 0:38:36
#55 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 6480
From: UK

@Zylesea

Well they are likely to be elsewhere. THEA500 Mini peeps are all on Discord and I think the FaceBook page is quite active for Classic Amiga stuff. Don't Apollo have their own exclusive forums like their exclusive AMMX software?

Last edited by BigD on 20-Aug-2022 at 12:39 AM.

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matthey 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 20-Aug-2022 1:39:40
#56 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1603
From: Kansas

There is not much here for retro 68k Amiga users. Really, there isn't much here for any Amiga user considering the availability and price of NG hardware for the much less popular PPC architecture. The similar but better ARM AArch64 architecture killed PPC and is the easy choice to switch to to repeat the same mistake which retro 68k Amiga fans can ignore again. Unless retro meets 68k NG Amiga, the Amiga will likely dissipate into more factions using different niche hardware and fizzle as the generation which remembers the Amiga fondly and the Amiga itself passes into obscurity.

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Kronos 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 20-Aug-2022 18:03:23
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2262
From: Unknown

@OneTimer1

Quote:

OneTimer1 wrote:


Well the number was brought up by Cego, someone who is acting like a 68080 zealot on the Apollo-Forum, without real access to the Apollo production numbers.
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=1558647&postcount=244

And Promilus took the number 10000 (mentioned by Cego for all 68080 cards) and claimed it to be the number of Vampire V4 SL systems and no one not even grond corrected this (now obvious wrong) number.


Given how these kind of numbers have been handled in the past I wouldn't be surprised if the games hadn't gone through a few cycles before getting into 5 digits.

Cos one thing is for sure, for such numbers it is awfully quite regarding actual users of the HW.

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cdimauro 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 20-Aug-2022 20:39:31
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2791
From: Germany

@QBit

Quote:

QBit wrote:

We need more Toni Wilens and less cdimauros!


You said to ignore me, right?


@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote:
@OneTimer1

Quote:

OneTimer1 wrote:


Well the number was brought up by Cego, someone who is acting like a 68080 zealot on the Apollo-Forum, without real access to the Apollo production numbers.
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=1558647&postcount=244

And Promilus took the number 10000 (mentioned by Cego for all 68080 cards) and claimed it to be the number of Vampire V4 SL systems and no one not even grond corrected this (now obvious wrong) number.


Given how these kind of numbers have been handled in the past I wouldn't be surprised if the games hadn't gone through a few cycles before getting into 5 digits.

Cos one thing is for sure, for such numbers it is awfully quite regarding actual users of the HW.

Last news on the topic directly from Gunnar this time:
http://apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=4Če=38817&x=1&z=_Oiy70
There are about 10.000 Vampire/Apollo systems in the field.

Satisfied now, or do you need a copy of the 10k invoices?

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matthey 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 20-Aug-2022 21:17:59
#59 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1603
From: Kansas

Kronos Quote:

Given how these kind of numbers have been handled in the past I wouldn't be surprised if the games hadn't gone through a few cycles before getting into 5 digits.

Cos one thing is for sure, for such numbers it is awfully quite regarding actual users of the HW.


I expect there is at least 5000 Vampire/Apollo hardware units sold and I consider 10000 or more units sold to be likely. The original Vampire 600 accelerator was only for the Amiga 600 yet hundreds of units were sold in a few months with no advertising.

http://www.majsta.com/modules.php?name=News&file=categories&op=newindex&catid=1 Quote:

Now, 30 more boards left for me to send, next 300 will be done by kipper2k in short period of time.


The Vampire 600 alone has likely sold over 1000 units and it is possible that was done in the first year. There are at least 4 versions/revisions of the Vampire 600. The Vampire 600 is not as popular as Vampire cards for the Amiga 500/1000/2000/CDTV (one card fits all "68000" Amiga models) and the Amiga 1200 (unknown how popular the standalone model is). There is enough production that modern and semi mass production and assembly is needed and used (Majsta and kipper2k together couldn't keep up with production of just the Vampire 600).

Vampire 1200 wave soldering
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GscnOHt1GG4

Would you still be "surprised" by 10,000 Vampire/Apollo units sold?

While Vampire/Apollo cards have likely outsold all PPC NG hardware, the 68k Amiga market is much larger than this. There are many new 68060 cards including the TF1260, Warp1260 and the FPGA Arcade 68060 (Matze is also working on the 68060-TK accelerator) which I expect average at least 1000 units of production each. Rev 6 68060s quickly dried up and now it is difficult to find even a full 68060 with MMU and FPU. Then there is other FPGA hardware with MiSTer being one of the highest end and most mature. It is possible to boot directly into the Amiga MiniMIG core, it has 68030/68040 performance, very good and configurable compatibility including AGA support, supports original I/O like mice and joysticks, etc. This is a mature FPGA option that can replace old Amigas and even a user who never used the Amiga now has a very favorable opinion of the Amiga.

MiSTer: An Amiga FPGA Super-Computer - New Year Countdown #13 | SmokeMonster
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bigaln3swU8

Even knowing MiSTer and other universal FPGA units sold wouldn't indicate Amiga interest as there is value in using other retro FPGA cores but there are likely thousands of MiSTer customers who purchased the device primarily for the Amiga and thousands more who bought lower cost alternatives. The FPGA Natami "MX Bringup Thread" had 761,487 views at one point I recorded and went higher after so it likely would have sold at least tens of thousands of units. Moving to hardware using 68k Amiga emulation, the most popular is likely THEA500Mini which likely sold tens of thousands of units at launch judging by the position on https://www.amazon.co.uk/Best-Sellers-PC-Video-Games and has likely sold over a hundred thousand units by now while several times that is possible for Christmas if discounted. Then you have the PiStorm accelerator which has likely sold well due to the low cost of only $13 fully assembled.

https://www.hackster.io/news/hands-on-with-the-pistorm-the-ultimate-raspberry-pi-powered-accelerator-for-your-commodore-amiga-449ef0634f3e

(Win)UAE emulation was likely the most common 68k Amiga experience which remains popular on x86-64 for high performance emulation while low cost emulation on the Raspberry Pi has likely increased the most.

In conclusion, the retro 68k Amiga market is huge compared to the PPC NG Amiga market. It is likely at least 100 times larger by unit sales right now and I believe that is only scratching the surface as significantly cheaper and higher performance hardware is possible with mass production which would increase demand. If you can't see the retro market explosion then get your head out of the sand.

Last edited by matthey on 20-Aug-2022 at 09:26 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 20-Aug-2022 at 09:25 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 20-Aug-2022 at 09:21 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Which Meinboard?
Posted on 20-Aug-2022 21:59:30
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2791
From: Germany

@matthey: I totally agree. 68K is THE market for Amiga. No questions here.

And many people are also abandoning the died PowerPC platforms and reverted back to the 68K...

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