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Poll : Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Yes, I would Join! £30
Yes, for less
Maybe
No
Bad idea, I have a better one....
Pancakes!
 
PosterThread
NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 26-Sep-2022 15:34:25
#381 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@cdimauro

the future of Amiga is here:

https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44680&forum=17

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cdimauro 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 26-Sep-2022 15:53:46
#382 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@cdimauro

the future of Amiga is here:

https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44680&forum=17

Which is much better than of PowerPCs, AmigaOnes, and OS4.

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OlafS25 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 26-Sep-2022 15:54:42
#383 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

LOL

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 26-Sep-2022 17:48:26
#384 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12795
From: Norway

@cdimauro

Sorry that was the wrong link, here it is:

https://tinyurl.com/24kre4bp

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Sep-2022 at 05:49 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 26-Sep-2022 19:17:55
#385 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@cdimauro

Sorry that was the wrong link, here it is:

https://tinyurl.com/24kre4bp

I can't open it: it's blocked by Ghostery...

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matthey 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 27-Sep-2022 0:02:00
#386 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1968
From: Kansas

agami Quote:

0.1% of 2 billion is 2 million. 50% of these (1 million) represent the low-hanging fruit. The platform would need to grow to above 20 million users through serving niches, and creating additional platform switching opportunities. At 1% market share, accompanied by moderate but reasonable yearly growth numbers, the platform would be considered sustainable and viable.


I think there is room for a 3rd general purpose computer platform as well. There are plenty of people who don't like Windows but can't or won't switch due to software. I don't even think the biggest software problem anymore is productivity software. I expect enough productivity software is open source now for 75% of PC user needs. There may be some people that think MS Office is needed when it really isn't but they are people that like the MS ecosystem and don't mind paying the MS tax (including Windows). Apple has their ecosystem and tax as well. Both are higher end higher cost ecosystems. That end of the market is pretty well covered by the two competitors where the low end PC market is not. The Low end PC market is currently divided because it is mostly Linux but with too many flavors, distros, ISAs and hardware combinations to proliferate (lack of standardization is the problem). The Raspberry Pi is the closest to a 3rd platform only because most people use Raspbian on pretty well standardized hardware.

OS Question/Poll: What Operating System did you choose for your Raspberry Pi?
https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=197553

There aren't many answers to the poll but 50% of the votes were for Raspbian. If there are 50 million RPi units sold and 50% are using Raspbian then that would be 25 million Raspbian Pi users. If 20 million users was your thresh hold for a viable 3rd platform, the Raspbian Pi may be it. I mentioned that productivity software wasn't so much of a problem but I believe software is. Many younger people have switched to smart phones for their PC use. Many of the desktop computers that remain are either for gaming or are functional computers cheaper than smart phones while the low end of the market is trying to avoid the MS and Apple tax. The RPi fits for the functional computing although it is not as good for the gaming. Some of that desktop market is for high end gaming and can't be won by a new 3rd platform but I believe there is room for a low end gaming platform and retro appeal is a good thing to build it off of. The Amiga developed into a standard low cost gaming platform back in the '80s which really started with the low cost Amiga 500. It is possible to push performance/price again even building on that original platform. It remains to be seen how modern we could get but the 68k was hidden away with very good traits that competed well with x86 and I expect the Imagination Technologies hybrid ray tracing GPU could be bolted onto the Amiga chipset with chunky support added. A good combination of retro and semi-modern gaming should be possible to make a low end 3rd platform not just functional but fun again. It wouldn't happen over night but the RPi strategy is a good example of how to do it and there should be room for two competitor at the low end of the PC market like there are two at the high end.

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agami 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 27-Sep-2022 7:15:48
#387 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Karlos

Quote:
Karlos wrote:
@agami

I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm commenting on what seems to be self evident.

"Self evident" is anecdotal evidence by another name.


Quote:
So Joe Average on Mac or Windows can't swap over to the alternative due to it being more difficult. If he can't find what he needs using free alternatives like Linux or by switching to something like ChromeOS I'm all ears as to how switching to anything resembling AmigaOS will help with it's total lack of familiar application software and general immaturity as an operating system (lack of SMP, security etc.)

Where did I state that it would "resemble" Amiga OS? Or that it would not be an operating environment supporting all the contemporary standards and operating expectations, e.g. SMP/SMT, security, etc?

The reason that the majority of targeted users would switch and stay, would be because the transition would be a net positive.

Last edited by agami on 27-Sep-2022 at 07:57 AM.

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agami 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 27-Sep-2022 7:47:19
#388 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@cdimauro

Quote:
cdimauro wrote:
@agami

Quote:
... does not even specify a CPU architecture.

Seriously? I think that you better have to make a deep clarification about your project, because it looks really too fuzzy in its current state.

Let me ask you a question: What percentage of Windows or macOS developers care what CPU architecture the platform is running on?
Whatever the actual %, I'm sure we can agree that the majority of contemporary application and game developers are coding to APIs, whereas a minority of developers are working on the development of operating systems and APIs.
Which of course says nothing about the % of application and game users who care about what CPU architecture the OS is using.

To be successful in the commercial computing platform space a new entrant must be able to deliver a platform which incorporates the operating dynamics where it is in some ways better than the existing options, and equal in others, in order to appeal to the larger developer and consumer demographics.

These dynamics, at the core of the operating environment architecture, are the same whether the hardware will be x86(64) or ARM64.

Quote:

Quote:
A phase of the project would evaluate and determine which hardware design would be best suited,...

So, in short, you don't evaluate new architectures, but you're only looking at existing ISAs (which might be improved over the time. IF the project succeeds).

Correct?

It has to be this way.
What most developers and users care about is performance, and increasingly performance per $. Until there is an established platform momentum, it is uneconomical form both time and money, to bother with anything that doesn't already have a known and well documented performance/$ profile. Currently, these are x86(64) and ARM64.

Since the operating system would follow modern design conventions and be adequately abstracted from the selected CPU architecture, it will present few obstacles when transitioning to other CPU architectures in the future, independent of the evolution in the operating environment dynamics.

Ideally and ultimately, the 3rd commercial computing platform would operate on multiple CPU architectures concurrently, and much like Apple would allow for the compilation of "dual binaries": A given application or game would look and work the same for two different users, one on an ARM64-based system, and the other on a x86(64)-based system.

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OlafS25 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 27-Sep-2022 9:00:44
#389 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6321
From: Unknown

@agami

People use something if it satisfies a need. That can be real needs or just emotional needs like interest in retro. And if you want to get interest by users it must offer advantages to current options. We need new and innovative products that are on technological level of 2022/2023. And it must not only be different but offer advantages like easier to use. Hardware is not so important for most people today, most users do not even know it. But daily tasks must be easy to use.

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Karlos 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 27-Sep-2022 9:56:52
#390 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4394
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@agami

Quote:

Quote:
I'm all ears as to how switching to anything resembling AmigaOS will help...

Where did I state that it would "resemble" Amiga OS? Or that it would not be an operating environment supporting all the contemporary standards and operating expectations, e.g. SMP/SMT, security, etc?


You're right! How could I be so silly? I can't imagine what gave me that impression, given the context of the post being in a thread entitled "Commodore Amiga Global Alliance" on a forum called "Amiga World", dedicated to users of a classic computing platform that runs something called "AmigaOS".

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V8 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 28-Sep-2022 1:20:04
#391 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Mar-2022
Posts: 129
From: Unknown

@agami

There is an awful lot of empty words with no actual content. Paradigm this, paradigm that, learn from the 90s and people want to switch to something that will serve them better.
But there is no actual content, so don't be surprised when people, at best, are sceptical, or worse, think this reminds them on Beljxanders plans.

That is the problem with your business plan, it does not sound like a business plan at all, there is no details of what you want to do, or how you want to do it, or how it will work. It just sounds like "it will be like amiga, but modern, and since amiga was popular in the 90s, this will be popular now" but that is not really a business plan.


Can you give one example of exactly what features you plan that will "serve people better" and why it would make people switch? Like an actual example of a feature and how it will work, how it will be different from any features on any other os and WHY it is better than similar features on Linux/windows/OSX ?


And since you don't care about ISA, which is wise, and since end-users today don't really care about the OS and only about applications. Why is your plan better than just creating a new window manager and ui guideline for linux? That would be a lot less work and should result in the same thing.

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agami 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 28-Sep-2022 1:24:04
#392 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Karlos

Quote:
Karlos wrote:
@agami

You're right! How could I be so silly? I can't imagine what gave me that impression, given the context of the post being in a thread entitled "Commodore Amiga Global Alliance" on a forum called "Amiga World", dedicated to users of a classic computing platform that runs something called "AmigaOS".

Great. So you admit that I never actually stated that the OS/OE for my blueprinted 3rd commercial consumer computing platform would "resemble" Amiga OS, and that it is just an "impression" you derived from the Forum name, the demographic of its constituents, and the topic title of this thread; In which by the way fewer than 50% of the 392+ postings are related to the opening topic.

Last edited by agami on 28-Sep-2022 at 02:29 AM.
Last edited by agami on 28-Sep-2022 at 01:24 AM.

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agami 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 28-Sep-2022 2:11:09
#393 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@V8

Quote:
V8 wrote:
@agami

There is an awful lot of empty words with no actual content. Paradigm this, paradigm that, learn from the 90s and people want to switch to something that will serve them better.
But there is no actual content, so don't be surprised when people, at best, are sceptical, or worse, think this reminds them on Beljxanders plans.

That is the problem with your business plan, it does not sound like a business plan at all, there is no details of what you want to do, or how you want to do it, or how it will work. It just sounds like "it will be like amiga, but modern, and since amiga was popular in the 90s, this will be popular now" but that is not really a business plan.

This isn't exactly the forum to delve into such details. If the above is your take-away from what I have said to date on the topic of what it would take to establish a 3rd commercial consumer computing platform, then it is yet another example of how unsuitable the "post, quote and reply" format is unsuitable to convey broader concepts.

Furthermore, I'm not familiar with "Beljxander's plans".


Quote:
Can you give one example of exactly what features you plan that will "serve people better" and why it would make people switch? Like an actual example of a feature and how it will work, how it will be different from any features on any other os and WHY it is better than similar features on Linux/windows/OSX ?

I'd have no issue having a constructive interchange of ideas on any examples or specific features I've proposed for new OS/OE, but again I don't believe this to be the appropriate forum.

There is much information on the subject, and I am not exaggerating when I say that I could teach a semester on the topic; So to paste short-form idea snippets here (because long-form posts are ignored by most) would only open them to out-of-context comments such as "Why a whole new OS when you can just write an app to do the same on x platform?"


Quote:
And since you don't care about ISA, which is wise, and since end-users today don't really care about the OS and only about applications. Why is your plan better than just creating a new window manager and ui guideline for linux? That would be a lot less work and should result in the same thing.

Hey Apple, why create a whole new smartphone device with its own OS, when you could've just written a new suite of apps with a fancy skin for Windows Mobile 5 platform?
Would that have resulted in the same thing?

I doubt I'd ever get the required funding if all I wanted is to create "yet another consumer computing platform" which is just a slight variation on what is available from current offerings. The plan involves creating a platform that aims to sound the proverbial starting pistol on the 3rd computing revolution. To use another entrepreneurial quote, the platform aims to "skate where the puck is going to be".

All of today's common consumer computing platforms, commercial or otherwise, are long drawn-out extensions of the computing concepts and workflows (paradigms) of the late '80s and '90s. They are products of the 2nd computing revolution. These platforms are ending where the next platforms are starting, so having just a new window manager with UI guidelines, a la System76's Cosmic DE, would not achieve the thing in which I am interested.

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agami 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 28-Sep-2022 2:27:32
#394 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@V8

I'd like to add, 2022 turned out to be almost as shitty a year as 2020 and 2021, despite the reduction in COVID-related restrictions to commerce.

I had originally planned to hit the proverbial pavement this year and start having the much delayed conversations with investors. Alas, the economic conditions, global and personal, have delayed them further into 2023.

There will come a time when all of the information will start to flow in dedicated channels, to generate interest from developers.

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matthey 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 28-Sep-2022 3:20:09
#395 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1968
From: Kansas

agami Quote:

Hey Apple, why create a whole new smartphone device with its own OS, when you could've just written a new suite of apps with a fancy skin for Windows Mobile 5 platform?
Would that have resulted in the same thing?

I doubt I'd ever get the required funding if all I wanted is to create "yet another consumer computing platform" which is just a slight variation on what is available from current offerings. The plan involves creating a platform that aims to sound the proverbial starting pistol on the 3rd computing revolution. To use another entrepreneurial quote, the platform aims to "skate where the puck is going to be".

All of today's common consumer computing platforms, commercial or otherwise, are long drawn-out extensions of the computing concepts and workflows (paradigms) of the late '80s and '90s. They are products of the 2nd computing revolution. These platforms are ending where the next platforms are starting, so having just a new window manager with UI guidelines, a la System76's Cosmic DE, would not achieve the thing in which I am interested.


What marks the beginning of the computing revolutions?

1st
Solid state transistor? IC, LSI and VLSI integration? Intel 4004? 6502? CBM Pet? Xerox Alto? GUI and mouse?

2nd
68000? Amiga? Internet? Smart phones? MS/Intel duopoly?

3rd
Augmented reality? Virtual AI Agami? Skynet?

Last edited by matthey on 28-Sep-2022 at 03:20 AM.

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agami 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 28-Sep-2022 6:22:22
#396 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1637
From: Melbourne, Australia

@matthey

Quote:
matthey wrote:

What marks the beginning of the computing revolutions?

...

You're mixing computer revolution (hardware) and specific use cases (part of computing revolution).

The 1st computing revolution was marked by the direct manipulation of computing data by computing scientists. Think people in white lab coats with punch cards.

The 2nd computing revolution was marked by the personalisation of computing as assisted with information management over direct data manipulation. This is everything since the late '70s up until the pocket computer (smartphone) of today.

The 3rd computing revolution will be marked by the paradoxical de-computing of computing.
Like with the previous revolutions, in both computing and computers, there's not a sharp break between the previous and new, and is generally expressed and experienced as a gradual ramping up of one, while the other ramps down.

Elements of the 3rd computing revolution are already here, e.g. IoT, digital virtual assistants, and some implementations of narrow A.I.

The consensus is that the 3rd computing revolution will be marked by the de-personalisation of computing hardware in an ecosystem referred to Ubiquitous Computing.

Last edited by agami on 28-Sep-2022 at 06:25 AM.
Last edited by agami on 28-Sep-2022 at 06:23 AM.

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amigang 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 28-Sep-2022 10:24:43
#397 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 2018
From: Cheshire, England

@agami

I can see that, TV has a computer in them now, Cars now have computers in them, Smart Speakers are also computer in a way, watches and health trackers are getting more poweful. Hell even Fridges and Washing machine for some reason are starting to have wifi and online features built it.

I dont know if I am a big fan of everything being connected just for the hell of it and companies trying to force a use case for it.

I could see how cloud computing could be a centeral controled system for all these device, Google ChromeBook is i feel a glips of the future, where all the devices in your home might only have a chip as simple as a Pi in it that just connects to internet and everything Streamed to you.

I am surpised that not more is done around the Hub/Routers and they be your central computer to power all the devices locally, and you just upgrade that to suddenly have more powerful computer access to all devices that access it.

I love the Steam Link that I pickup for £20 and basically I have access to my main computer in anyroom with a monitor. its all pretty cool tech.

I feel this 3rd revoultion is already hear, and 4th revoultion is AI judging by Dall : E and other stuff it can do.

However I dont feel this the market for Amiga, as others have pointed out I feel Amiga target should be the OS for very low power devices, hobbist, retro community and maybe Pixel Art / retro music maker. There the markets I feel Amiga should target.

Last edited by amigang on 28-Sep-2022 at 05:05 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 28-Sep-2022 10:45:35
#398 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 4394
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@agami

Quote:
Great. So you admit that I never actually stated that the OS/OE for my blueprinted 3rd commercial consumer computing platform would "resemble" Amiga OS, and that it is just an "impression" you derived from the Forum name, the demographic of its constituents, and the topic title of this thread; In which by the way fewer than 50% of the 392+ postings are related to the opening topic.


That and your other postings regarding the future of AmigaOS/MC68K. You have to admit, it's not an unreasonable leap.

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matthey 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 28-Sep-2022 14:27:03
#399 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 1968
From: Kansas

agami Quote:

You're mixing computer revolution (hardware) and specific use cases (part of computing revolution).

The 1st computing revolution was marked by the direct manipulation of computing data by computing scientists. Think people in white lab coats with punch cards.


Punch cards marked the start of the 1st computing revolution. How did I miss punch cards?

agami Quote:

The 2nd computing revolution was marked by the personalisation of computing as assisted with information management over direct data manipulation. This is everything since the late '70s up until the pocket computer (smartphone) of today.


Computer data cassette tapes marked the start of the 2nd computing revolution. I'm so blind!

agami Quote:

The 3rd computing revolution will be marked by the paradoxical de-computing of computing.
Like with the previous revolutions, in both computing and computers, there's not a sharp break between the previous and new, and is generally expressed and experienced as a gradual ramping up of one, while the other ramps down.

Elements of the 3rd computing revolution are already here, e.g. IoT, digital virtual assistants, and some implementations of narrow A.I.

The consensus is that the 3rd computing revolution will be marked by the de-personalisation of computing hardware in an ecosystem referred to Ubiquitous Computing.


I was pretty close on the 3rd computing revolution. I mentioned an evolved virtual assistant and AI. I thought about IoT, AI and a virtual assistant but they have been around for awhile and could be considered 2nd generation. I couldn't think what an evolution of IoT could be called though. It doesn't really need to change as much as finish building out for Big Brother and AI to take control resulting in Skynet, George Orwell's 1984 or the mark of the beast scenarios. Whoever controls the data controls information which is very powerful (Ministry of Truth, government control of the media and Disinformation Governance Board). IoT are the "sensors" that passively input the data all around us.

So you are looking at data input and flows?

1st computing revolution
group input of data

2nd computing revolution
personal input of data

3rd computing revolution
passive input of data

How do we stop the resulting concentration of power and dystopia that follows though?

Last edited by matthey on 28-Sep-2022 at 02:27 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Commodore Amiga Global Alliance
Posted on 28-Sep-2022 19:56:19
#400 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3621
From: Germany

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
cdimauro wrote:
@agami

Seriously? I think that you better have to make a deep clarification about your project, because it looks really too fuzzy in its current state.

Let me ask you a question: What percentage of Windows or macOS developers care what CPU architecture the platform is running on?
Whatever the actual %, I'm sure we can agree that the majority of contemporary application and game developers are coding to APIs, whereas a minority of developers are working on the development of operating systems and APIs.
Which of course says nothing about the % of application and game users who care about what CPU architecture the OS is using.

To be successful in the commercial computing platform space a new entrant must be able to deliver a platform which incorporates the operating dynamics where it is in some ways better than the existing options, and equal in others, in order to appeal to the larger developer and consumer demographics.

These dynamics, at the core of the operating environment architecture, are the same whether the hardware will be x86(64) or ARM64.

Quote:

So, in short, you don't evaluate new architectures, but you're only looking at existing ISAs (which might be improved over the time. IF the project succeeds).

Correct?

It has to be this way.
What most developers and users care about is performance, and increasingly performance per $. Until there is an established platform momentum, it is uneconomical form both time and money, to bother with anything that doesn't already have a known and well documented performance/$ profile. Currently, these are x86(64) and ARM64.

Since the operating system would follow modern design conventions and be adequately abstracted from the selected CPU architecture, it will present few obstacles when transitioning to other CPU architectures in the future, independent of the evolution in the operating environment dynamics.

Ideally and ultimately, the 3rd commercial computing platform would operate on multiple CPU architectures concurrently, and much like Apple would allow for the compilation of "dual binaries": A given application or game would look and work the same for two different users, one on an ARM64-based system, and the other on a x86(64)-based system.

OK, but do you understand that the situation is even worse after this clarification?

You want to create a new platform, but what's the added value compared to the existing ones? Why people should embrace it?

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