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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  How to convert a tool icon into a commodity icon?
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Hypex 
How to convert a tool icon into a commodity icon?
Posted on 10-Sep-2022 17:31:10
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10718
From: Greensborough, Australia

Hi guys.

I found I have a new problem I don't recall seeing on OS4 before. Using WBStartup Prefs I added a program to my startup. The next time I booted I got a message from Workbench about a program that hadn't returned and if it should wait. I don't think I've seen this messsage since the OS3 days.

I didn't notice anything particular about the icon. I'm aware of the custom commodity tooltypes but didn't recall what the options were so needed to look up DONOTWAIT. Since OS4 hides them in the Info window.

Well I checked some commodity icons and found that Info has more options on the bottom! They are all tools so I don't know why Info would act differently. I disabled RAWBInfo and added DONOTWAIT in. But after enabling it back Info still doesn't recognise it as a commodity.

So, it still seems strange to me, but how do you convert a tool icon into a commodity icon? I converted it from a tool to a tool but it made no difference. I tried to load up a default icon but it's still a tool and not a commmodity icon. Dragging a commodity in the Info window didnt fix it.

I'm stumped!

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kolla 
Re: How to convert a tool icon into a commodity icon?
Posted on 10-Sep-2022 17:37:44
#2 ]
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Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2217
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Hypex

It just needs to be located in WBStartup drawer.

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OldFart 
Re: How to convert a tool icon into a commodity icon?
Posted on 10-Sep-2022 17:54:16
#3 ]
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Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 3008
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@Hypex

Quote:
I found I have a new problem I don't recall seeing on OS4 before. Using WBStartup Prefs I added a program to my startup. The next time I booted I got a message from Workbench about a program that hadn't returned and if it should wait.

Glad you brought this one up! I have the same experience with an ARexx-script (Alex Camora's 'AddMenu.rexx'), which I now run from User-Startup. But even when I run it from it from WBStartup, I have an identical experience, so that move brings me little soulas.

After every boot I have that experience of moving the mouse in "the right position" as soon as Workbench shows up. From experience I know where that TRP is, so I can just click as soon as that requester kicks in. Grown to got used to it.

I'm very interested what solutions come up here.

OldFart

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amigagr 
Re: How to convert a tool icon into a commodity icon?
Posted on 10-Sep-2022 19:03:38
#4 ]
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Joined: 2-Sep-2022
Posts: 9
From: Thessaloniki, Greece

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@Hypex

It just needs to be located in WBStartup drawer.


however, this folder does not exist any more

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kolla 
Re: How to convert a tool icon into a commodity icon?
Posted on 10-Sep-2022 20:21:59
#5 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2217
From: Trondheim, Norway

@amigagr

How silly.

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nbache 
Re: How to convert a tool icon into a commodity icon?
Posted on 10-Sep-2022 23:12:26
#6 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Apr-2003
Posts: 1028
From: Copenhagen, Denmark

@kolla

Viewing the icon information from within WBStartup prefs is the modern equivalent.

Best regards,

Niels

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kolla 
Re: How to convert a tool icon into a commodity icon?
Posted on 11-Sep-2022 7:18:42
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 2217
From: Trondheim, Norway

It appears to obfuscate rather than simplify… progress!!

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Hypex 
Re: How to convert a tool icon into a commodity icon?
Posted on 11-Sep-2022 10:42:11
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10718
From: Greensborough, Australia

@kolla

Yes, as mentioned, it doesn't exist any more. The functionality has been moved into WBStartup Prefs. This avoids the need to copy programs into a system drawer. And they can remain where they are, which can be good if program is part of a set, it's own drawer.

But, it takes away the easiness of simply dragging files in there. At one stage I had added it back in but not on my later X1000 install. I think they could have left it there as a virtual drawer and had the Workbench track so things copied in get linked. But AmigaDOS needs more sophisticated infrastructure, so files copied in can get converted to a file link, which it has obviously needed for years now. MacOS finder could do it.

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Hypex 
Re: How to convert a tool icon into a commodity icon?
Posted on 11-Sep-2022 11:05:17
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10718
From: Greensborough, Australia

@nbache

I found that viewing icon info blocks WBStartup Prefs. Which doesn't make sense as I thought it would just tell WB to open it up. But it looks like it waits for it to close. I suppose this is another "Workbenchism" since Workbench never fully multi-tasked.

In any case this brings up that commodities are not in any special place, like kolla suggested, with WBStartup. However, they are in Utilities, if it that is a special place.

OTOH, another program I have is in neither place, and that also loads fine as well. So what causes RAWInfo to hide those extra options? What makes it reveal the extra options?

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Hypex 
Re: How to convert a tool icon into a commodity icon?
Posted on 11-Sep-2022 11:14:01
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10718
From: Greensborough, Australia

@OldFart

Quote:
I'm very interested what solutions come up here.


Sounds like you've developed some muscle memory. Well your arm must be tired of that so hopefully we can give it some rest. I think a solution is in my OP but I'll list them simply here in order.

The answer lies here:
https://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/AmigaOS_Manual:_Workbench_Fundamentals#Icon_Tool_Types

Try this for a quick fix that should work.

1. Open the icon info.
2. Add the tooltype DONOTWAIT.
3. Save and reboot.

I can do this of course. But I found that Info still ignores the tooltype. However I may need CX_PRI for Info to bring up the extra options. In any case I think they should always come up. Having it show or hide them, without giving you a choice or telling you why, is confusing to me and not what I would call a feature!

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amigagr 
Re: How to convert a tool icon into a commodity icon?
Posted on 11-Sep-2022 17:36:12
#11 ]
New Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2022
Posts: 9
From: Thessaloniki, Greece

Commodities are special-purpose programs. In fact, most programs or applications are not suitable for becoming commodities. The Commodities Exchange framework is ideal for programs that need to monitor all user input: hotkey utilities, screen blankers, mouse blankers, etc.

In the past, some developers turned their programs into commodities only to provide them with a handy keyboard shortcut to bring up/close their GUI. Please note that such practice is actually a misuse of the commodities framework.

Commodities Exchange should never be used as an alternate method of receiving user input for an application. Other applications depend on getting user input in some form or another from the input stream. A greedy program that diverts input to itself rather than letting the input go to where the user expects it can seriously confuse the user, not to mention compromise the advantages of multitasking.

https://wiki.amigaos.net/wiki/Commodities_Exchange_Library#Commodities_Exchange_Library

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: How to convert a tool icon into a commodity icon?
Posted on 11-Sep-2022 19:18:30
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12290
From: Norway

@amigagr

Well besides Exchange, there is no simple easy way to quit programs safely, it might not be what Exchange framework was intended for, but alternative.

Sending Break to a CLI process, often end in desalter as programs don’t expect to exit that why, as result fail to free memory, bitmaps and windows, most programs do not have an exception for CTRL+C, and that way also lacks a user-friendly GUI.

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Hypex 
Re: How to convert a tool icon into a commodity icon?
Posted on 12-Sep-2022 3:20:32
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10718
From: Greensborough, Australia

@amigagr

The commodities features may have been slightly misused over the years and MUI makes sure every program is a commodity. At the other end even modern programs continued to use input.device directly after commodities provided a system managed way to access input. However, this issue I have doesn't involve code or practices, but how Info recognises an icon and how to get Info to edit an icon as a commodity. Or in reality, a Workbench startup icon, would be closer to what I'm thinking. I used commodity as a reference since commodity icons show up with extra options and commonly stay resident.

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OldFart 
Re: How to convert a tool icon into a commodity icon?
Posted on 12-Sep-2022 9:03:26
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 3008
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@Hypex

Quote:
2. Add the tooltype DONOTWAIT.

This one did it!

Thanks

OldFart

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Hypex 
Re: How to convert a tool icon into a commodity icon?
Posted on 12-Sep-2022 12:07:02
#15 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10718
From: Greensborough, Australia

@OldFart

Excellent.

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broadblues 
Re: How to convert a tool icon into a commodity icon?
Posted on 12-Sep-2022 17:01:59
#16 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4434
From: Portsmouth England

@Hypex

You can't convert a tool icon into a commodity icon because there is no such thing as a commodity icon.

WRT to the DONOTWAIT and STARTPRI icons (and others) you can set the equivalent when started from WBStartup by unticking the Wait until finished checkbox, and changing the value shown in the Start priority integer gadget just above this. Bottom of the icon TAB).

You can drag and drop files onto the list of files to add them.

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broadblues 
Re: How to convert a tool icon into a commodity icon?
Posted on 12-Sep-2022 17:09:34
#17 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4434
From: Portsmouth England

@Hypex

Quote:

I found that viewing icon info blocks WBStartup Prefs. Which doesn't make sense as I thought it would just tell WB to open it up. But it looks like it waits for it to close. I suppose this is another "Workbenchism" since Workbench never fully multi-tasked.


It make lots of sense, you are opening the info window, as it it was a requester, you don't want to open a requester that might change the data a program is operating on and allow the main program to be closed, before that data is saved. Workbench is library in this context, not the program itself.

Quote:

So what causes RAWInfo to hide those extra options? What makes it reveal the extra options?


It will check if the the Info was opened on WBStartup prefs process or if it was opened from the WBStartup drawer.

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broadblues 
Re: How to convert a tool icon into a commodity icon?
Posted on 12-Sep-2022 17:11:32
#18 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4434
From: Portsmouth England

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
It appears to obfuscate rather than simplify… progress!!


Not really, Hypex is having a funny five, it's pretty easy to use really.

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Hypex 
Re: How to convert a tool icon into a commodity icon?
Posted on 12-Sep-2022 19:04:54
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10718
From: Greensborough, Australia

@broadblues

Quote:
You can't convert a tool icon into a commodity icon because there is no such thing as a commodity icon.


I said commodity icon as I was thinking how commodity icons have these startup options but what I meant was a startup icon Workbench doesn't wait on.

Quote:
WRT to the DONOTWAIT and STARTPRI icons (and others) you can set the equivalent when started from WBStartup by unticking the Wait until finished checkbox, and changing the value shown in the Start priority integer gadget just above this. Bottom of the icon TAB).


Yes that's what I found out. Though I had opened icons from both Workbench and WBStartup and somehow didn't see extra options show up from WBStartup. I think this is one of those things where you need some esoteric knowledge to know about it.

Quote:
It make lots of sense, you are opening the info window, as it it was a requester, you don't want to open a requester that might change the data a program is operating on and allow the main program to be closed, before that data is saved. Workbench is library in this context, not the program itself.


It doesn't make sense from an end user point of view to me. It looks exactly like an Info window on Workbench. If it's meant to work as a requester or editing window then it should open one that's integrated and looks like it belongs to WBStartup. It just looks like it asks Workbench to open it. I could see no difference.

Quote:
It will check if the the Info was opened on WBStartup prefs process or if it was opened from the WBStartup drawer.


Is this documented anywhere?

Last edited by Hypex on 13-Sep-2022 at 02:23 AM.

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broadblues 
Re: How to convert a tool icon into a commodity icon?
Posted on 14-Sep-2022 13:21:11
#20 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4434
From: Portsmouth England

@Hypex

Quote:

Though I had opened icons from both Workbench and WBStartup and somehow didn't see extra options show up from WBStartup.


I just created a temp WBStartup draw and can confirm they extra gadgets do occur on both the RAWBInfo icon tab and also on the plain workbench info window (that you rarely see as RAWBInfo or a third party replacement usually replace it...)

Quote:


It doesn't make sense from an end user point of view to me. It looks exactly like an Info window on Workbench. If it's meant to work as a requester or editing window then it should open one that's integrated and looks like it belongs to WBStartup. It just looks like it asks Workbench to open it. I could see no difference.



Well there is no difference as Workbench opened it on behalf of WBStartup prefs. But it's clearly being used in a "modal" context and only blocks WBStartup, not the rest of the workbench.

The command line WBInfo also blocks in the same way, so that any script using it can besure that the chnages required by the user are commited before the script continues.

Quote:

Quote:

It will check if the the Info was opened on WBStartup prefs process or if it was opened from the WBStartup drawer.

Is this documented anywhere?


I would think the WBStartup drawer part is documented in the original AmigaOS 3.1/5/9 manuals but I don't have acopy to hand. The behaviour from WBStartup prefs mimics the behaviour with the old drawer.

[

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