I have finally relented and jumped on the AmigaOS 3.2 bandwagon. Obviously, that funds the Ben Hermans legal train wreck but he has enabled a product that people want! It's a dilemma really. Yes, no coders get paid and Cloanto suffer by not being able to fully capitalise their IP until agreement is reached.

Any thoughts? Are people like me the reason Hyperion don't need to settle out of court? Would AmigaOS still be developed at all without Hyperion? Discuss.

Last edited by BigD on 14-Dec-2022 at 11:25 PM.

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@BigD

None of above legal actions, is blocking continued development of AmigaOS3, and development of OS4.x is in jeopardy, thanks to legal case. With Amiga Inc and now Cloanto. Cloanto does not have a development team. (Cloanto has donated to random projects, but never heard about any actual work contracts.)

Either Hyperion owns AmigaOS, and they are allowed to open source, or they don't own it, and are not allowed to open source. without developers being paid, everything will undoubtedly slow down. the legal status determines that, not Hyperion.

The NDA is really is about Hyperion’s right to distribute work made by contractors, it also protects Hyperion’s assets, for anyone they think is worth they willing to pay, however they failed to pay some contractors in the past, but risk is up to anyone who wonts to work for Hyperion.

But only applies for work done on the OS, and OS tools. But anyone can write software / libraries / patches without a NDA, and open source it if you like. the NDA does not stop anyone from contributing.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Dec-2022 at 11:59 PM.
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Oh but it does.
The NDA prevents people from contributing to for example AROS.
The NDA prevents people who are engaged in development of other systems to contribute to AmigsOS, as it is regarded as way too risky, considering Hermans’ trackrecord.

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@kolla

Several of contractors, see AmigaOS as extra income, they are not willing to work for free on AROS. Some are professionals, with desire for AmigaOS and Amiga stuff, can be making lot more money working for a real company. This are developers you miss out on if there were no cash reward.

You earn to much on side, before you must register a company in Norway, this means you lose what you get paid in sate fees, and taxes. Of course, if your already do freelancer and charge by the hour, it’s a different thing.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Dec-2022 at 12:39 AM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

You dont really believe that working on open source software means you cant get paid for it do you?
Likewise there's no guarantee that working on a commercial product will mean you get paid.
This is Hyperion being discussed, not a professional or competent company.
Doing work for them is a gamble in regards to receiving financial compensation.

@fishy_fis

You dont really believe that working on open source software means you cant get paid for it do you?

Absolutely, I certainly don’t get played for having created 50 projects on github.
I also remember that AROS guy going broke, while working on SMP.

I have made some money on mplayer, but only because I asked for it, and was not an amount I can make a living off.

Most people working on open source stuff get no, or little reword for doing so.
You’re more likely going to get screwed by someone making a Linux distro.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

"Can't" (which is what I said) and "don't" are 2 different things.
And does anyone make a full time living working for Hyperion either?

No-one, or next to no-one makes a full time living from working on anything Amiga related.

Quote:

Several of contractors, see AmigaOS as extra income, they are not willing to work for free on AROS

Exactly as can be the case for AROS, or any niche/open source projects.
You yourself said *extra income*. Not a wage.
A person can make *extra income* working on AROS too. There's no need to do it for free, which is what you inferred. There's been AROS bounties of 4 figure sums.
Niche computer products dont pay the bills, they can just give a person a little pocket money.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 15-Dec-2022 at 10:19 AM.
Last edited by fishy_fis on 15-Dec-2022 at 10:18 AM.

@Thread

So generally we are a bit conflicted then? All the polling results are about equally matched! So Hyperion are 'The Good, the Bad and the Ugly' of the Amiga World! I know which one I think Ben is most like!


"I know AmigaOS is a smoldering mess but give me your money as there's always legal bills to pay! MY BILLS!!!"

_________________
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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Several of contractors, see AmigaOS as extra income,

Who are you talking about? All Amiga OS developers who have said anything on the matter have stated that they don’t get paid at all. Paid contract work? Not since a very, very long time.

Last edited by kolla on 15-Dec-2022 at 10:27 AM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Most people working on open source stuff get no, or little reword for doing so.

Depends entirely what exactly they are working on, quality of the product and business model they chose. Crappy software and/or bad business models will fail regardless of whether it is open sourcr or not.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

you must register a company in Norway, this means you lose what you get paid in sate fees, and taxes

Anyone running a company that pays taxes is doing it wrong! lol

@BigD

The development is always better under the development of those who actually stood up and bought the damn thing, even if it turn to be worse, that's at least their right.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

of course you get more money with paid work than open source

and amiga user are willing to spend lots of money for hardware but are often not willing to pay for software. Might be specific.

But if you are true why not drop NDA because it would make no difference then

@BigD

I would say it this way... you are (without wanting) of course feeding the lawsuit

A long time Hyperion sold AmigaOS 4.X and Cloanto 68k (expecially amigaforever including roms). There was no confrontation. Then Hyperion realized that money could be made in "classic" (whereas 4.X more or less was dead) so they started to sell rom licenses and created the update (or better sold what developers did for free). So the lawsuit started. In my view there is a high risk for hyperion about how the lawsuit ends so current undecided situation is better as long they can continue making money. Whatever motivation of people is to buy 3.2, it makes the lawsuit lasting longer. Hyperion will all do they can to make it never end. Otherwise it would be long over already.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 15-Dec-2022 at 11:27 AM.

@kolla

He certainly mix it with Aeon/Amigakit

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote: @BigD I would say it this way... you are (without wanting) of course feeding the lawsuit A long time Hyperion sold AmigaOS 4.X and Cloanto 68k (expecially amigaforever including roms). There was no confrontation. Then Hyperion realized that money could be made in "classic" (whereas 4.X more or less was dead) so they started to sell rom licenses and created the update (or better sold what developers did for free). So the lawsuit started. In my view there is a high risk for hyperion about how the lawsuit ends so current undecided situation is better as long they can continue making money. Whatever motivation of people is to buy 3.2, it makes the lawsuit lasting longer. Hyperion will all do they can to make it never end. Otherwise it would be long over already.

Nicely put! But you can't blame the users for wanting products! It is a miracle the AmigaOS is still being updated however it came about! However, the fact that Hyperion don't do the coding work themselves while using NDA to basically hold to ransom contractors/volunteer coders who are not their direct employees and also all the while squatting on someone else's IP seem to be the major concerns!

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@BigD

I think the most similar is:

Last edited by Templario on 15-Dec-2022 at 12:02 PM.

@BigD

Quote:

But you can't blame the users for wanting products!

Ben Hermans has been stabbing AmigaOS developers in the back for a decade and a half. Continuing to buy his products means that

(a) the legal situation will get worse and worse - note, for example, how 3.1.4 and 3.2 allegedly contain unlicensed code from Jörg Strohmeyer

(b) only die-hard nutjobs will work on any of Hyperion's OS projects. i.e. manpower will be a problem

(c) Aeonkit will continue to try to reimplement everything, because WORLD DOMINATION! And they will charge you a kidney for it. And they will try to grab as many trademarks and/or domains as they can. And C&D anybody who happens to stand in the way.

(d) open sourcing anything - the only real option left for AmigaOS - is out of the question

If you continue to pay Hyperion for their illegal products, build on the backs of the devs Ben has been shafting for 15 years, then yeah - we can blame you for all of the above.

@all

My Opinion: Amiga is doomed. The devil and meta god and some crazy alien machines from Outter Space and the Computer buisiness in General decided that Computers shall nevermore be used the fun way and that Computers should become as enigmatic and intransparent as possible. The Users shall feel as silly as possible using Computers and the people who understand Computers the enigmatic way Elitist! Amiga was about transparency.

Computers shall not be transparent. The AI Development is the same.

Transparency and self understanding of machines is just not wanted. The billions of Computer and Smartphone Users just shall not understand how Computers work. It is not wanted that silly people understand Computers in the deep. They shall be Consumers but not Producers.

The kids of today play games the fun way. But they can`t learn Computers in the deep the Fun Way.
I am no Coder and I don`t understand assembler but at least I know a few Assembler Commands move.q I even know i could google an 68k or i386 Assembler Listing and paste it here although I don`t understand it like the machines don`t understand what understanding is!
google on 68k Assembler listing


google on i386 Assembler listing

ARM Assembler listing

But the kids of today don`t learn and know such things!

@cgutjahr

Quote:

If you continue to pay Hyperion for their illegal products, build on the backs of the devs Ben has been shafting for 15 years, then yeah - we can blame you for all of the above.

I totally agree but given the choice between 3.1 Roms and OS3.9 + BB 1-4 from Cloanto/H&P Old Stock or 3.2.1 Roms from Hyperion in 2022; I think 3.2.1 Roms and the OS3.2 CD is the only sensible consumer choice! Plus you are supporting the resellers!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios