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Poll : Do you believe in Emulation?
Yes, of Course!
No, Never!
No, Shut the fuck up!
Date a girl!
Bullshit
Yes, Shut the fuck up!
This shit will fuck you up! With Pancakes!
 
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QBit 
I declare absolutely everything jailed in this emulated Omniverse!
Posted on 15-Dec-2022 1:25:01
#1 ]
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Joined: 15-Jun-2018
Posts: 290
From: Unknown

Hugh! I have spoken!

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: I declare absolutely everything jailed in this emulated Omniverse!
Posted on 15-Dec-2022 21:04:27
#2 ]
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Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12392
From: Norway

@QBit

Overall, I say it can be acceptable, but it's not the same as real thing. It depends on what you are emulating, how demanding it is. And what you are using the emulator for.

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agami 
Re: I declare absolutely everything jailed in this emulated Omniverse!
Posted on 16-Dec-2022 0:51:11
#3 ]
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Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1290
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Emulation

There is no "real" thing. There is only people's perception regarding the experience of a thing.

In other words, if we examine that old saying "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck", a thing is more commonly understood and defined by its interaction attributes.

If, by method of emulation, individuals can have a facsimile experience equal to a thing without emulation, are then the former and latter not equal things?

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Nonefornow 
Re: I declare absolutely everything jailed in this emulated Omniverse!
Posted on 16-Dec-2022 1:03:20
#4 ]
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Joined: 29-Jul-2013
Posts: 339
From: Greater Los Angeles Area

@agami

Quote:
"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck"


Or a duck decoy used by hunters. But I hear that those decoys don't taste so good.

I am of the opinion that anyone who uses emulation eventually will want to try the real thing (as the thing that is being emulated).

Last edited by Nonefornow on 16-Dec-2022 at 01:04 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: I declare absolutely everything jailed in this emulated Omniverse!
Posted on 16-Dec-2022 13:36:49
#5 ]
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Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3511
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@agami

I think what you are trying to say is that experience, of anything, is subjective not objective.

You could create the most perfect, cycle exact, bug for bug reimplementation/emulation of something, hide it away and don't tell the user. They would, in the absence of being told, assume they were using the real thing. However, if you told them it was an emulation or reimplementation of it, you'd get this immediate split between those who would admit they couldn't tell and those, who like the moron audiophiles that insist directionality is important for network cables, will find something subjective to complain about.

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Valiant 
Re: I declare absolutely everything jailed in this emulated Omniverse!
Posted on 16-Dec-2022 19:02:29
#6 ]
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@Nonefornow

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agami 
Re: I declare absolutely everything jailed in this emulated Omniverse!
Posted on 17-Dec-2022 9:44:25
#7 ]
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Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1290
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Karlos

Quote:
Karlos wrote:
@agami

I think what you are trying to say is that experience, of anything, is subjective not objective.

You could create the most perfect, cycle exact, bug for bug reimplementation/emulation of something, hide it away and don't tell the user. They would, in the absence of being told, assume they were using the real thing. However, if you told them it was an emulation or reimplementation of it, you'd get this immediate split between those who would admit they couldn't tell and those, who like the moron audiophiles that insist directionality is important for network cables, will find something subjective to complain about.

100%

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bhabbott 
Re: I declare absolutely everything jailed in this emulated Omniverse!
Posted on 17-Dec-2022 23:17:42
#8 ]
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Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 251
From: Aotearoa

@QBit

Thank for that poll. Now I know that 'shit' and 'shut the fuck up' is acceptable language on this forum.

In computing, emulation refers to the ability of a computer program in one device to imitate a different device. Whether that will be acceptable to the user depends on the accuracy of the emulation and the user's expectations.

For example:-

I don't have a CD32, but I do have an A1200. I can play CD32 games on my A1200 by emulating the CDROM drive and Akiko functions etc. For the most part that setup is identical to a real CD32.

But is that enough for me? The answer is no, because I also want to experience the physical presence of a CD32, and I want to build things that connect to it like I did back in the 90's. For any of that I need real hardware, not a software emulation.

So if someone was to reproduce all the physical parts of a CD32 (motherboard, chips, case etc.) would that be enough? The answer is still no, because I also want to own a genuine piece of history. Any modern reproduction can only ever be a copy or a fake.

Some people just want to run software that doesn't normally work on their system. Depending on expectations they may be satisfied with a pretty poor and incomplete emulation. When the A1000 debuted in 1985 it was touted as being compatible with PCs via emulation. The 'Transformer' emulation software was able to boot a protected Lotus 123 disk and run the program without errors. The industry was impressed because back then even some PC clones weren't compatible enough to run Lotus 123, and here it was running perfectly on completely different hardware - which was previously thought to be impossible.

Well OK, not quite perfectly - the Transfomer ran Lotus 123 at the about the speed of a 1MHz 8088 - and not completely different hardware because an external 5.25" floppy drive (the A1020) was needed to read 360k disks. The speed issue could be solved with a faster CPU, but still the PC crowd were not satisfied. Experience had taught them anything less than 100% IBM compatibility at the hardware level was the kiss of death. And they were right of course. With a real PC you could plug in cards to expand it in myriad ways - not so with software emulation.

Commodore's answer to this was the Sidecar, an almost complete PC in a box that plugged into the side of the A1000. For convenience it still used the Amiga's keyboard and display, but you could plug in eg. an EGA card and use an EGA compatible monitor. You could even put a PC hard drive in it and use it from the Amiga side. This system was later integrated into the A2000, A3000 and A4000 - with all the PC stuff moved to a plug-in 'bridgeboard'.

Amigas have been emulating PCs from day one, but few PC fans found it satisfactory even when it was mostly done with almost identical hardware. I had a Sidecar for a while, but it was little too accurate for my tastes (those long boot times etc.) and took up a lot of space on the desk. When I got the A3000 and needed to write some PC programs I found it was fast enough to emulate a 4.77MHz XT in almost real time, good enough for what I was doing and a lot more convenient than having to find space for an actual PC. The 50MHz 68030 in my A1200 did an even better job, including accurately displaying VGA graphics.

Today my A600 with Vampire can emulate a 486 running at ~12MHz, fast enough to run Windows 3.1 and even Tomb Raider (very slowly, but still playable!). This is great for testing out retro PC programs and taking screen shots of them etc. But of course I can't test out old PC hardware with it. For that I need a real PC - and not a modern one.

Software emulation can only get you so far. PC fans know this. It may do a pretty good job of emulating lesser hardware if you are not too picky, and may be a lot more convenient. But nothing beats the real thing for ultimate realism at all levels (if that is what you want).

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bhabbott 
Re: I declare absolutely everything jailed in this emulated Omniverse!
Posted on 18-Dec-2022 0:07:08
#9 ]
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Joined: 6-Jun-2018
Posts: 251
From: Aotearoa

@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote:
@agami

I think what you are trying to say is that experience, of anything, is subjective not objective.

You could create the most perfect, cycle exact, bug for bug reimplementation/emulation of something, hide it away and don't tell the user.

Not purely via software emulation. To compete the illusion you need to include the hardware that the user is expecting to be there. Now it becomes much more difficult to fool them.

The more a person has become familiar with the real thing, the harder it is to emulate it closely enough for them to not feel like something's wrong. For some of us the experience goes far beyond just having 'identical' graphics and sound etc. So you better make sure the disk drive operates identically (including being able to feel the heads stepping, which I often do when waiting for a game to load). Just perching me in front of an LCD screen, handing me a USB joystick and saying 'there's a real Amiga in there - honest!" will make me mighty suspicious. But what's worse is you will be depriving me of a large part of the experience I am familiar with. Even if it is a real Amiga in there I won't be satisfied.

Experience is not subjective when it relies on objective reality. It can be quantified and analyzed. Theoretically with enough data, processing power and 'fake' hardware you could emulate an Amiga perfectly. In practice it's not practicable. The closest we are getting is FPGAs and RPis just emulating those parts of the hardware that the user doesn't directly interact with.

Quote:
They would, in the absence of being told, assume they were using the real thing. However, if you told them it was an emulation or reimplementation of it, you'd get this immediate split between those who would admit they couldn't tell and those, who like the moron audiophiles that insist directionality is important for network cables, will find something subjective to complain about.

And yet audiophiles have proven that so-called 'identical' hardware sometimes does have audible differences. Like those gold plated phono plugs for example. Waste of money? Not after you have experienced signal variations due to corroded connections. Or that ridiculously thick 'monster' speaker cable - that actully does affect the sound of some amplifiers due to increased damping. I found this out early on when so-called 'insignificant' distortion was plainly obvious in a listening test. Turns out that while 1% is virtually inaudible in a class A valve amp, it's a different story for crossover distortion in transistor amps that gets worse as the level reduces.

You can talk about 'morons' who insist they can tell the difference when there is none, but we are nowhere near there yet. What we do have is people putting videos up on YouTube of games running on purported real Amigas that are plainly emulated - like that 'stock A4000' running Quake faster than a 50MHz 060. Had me fooled for a few seconds, until I remembered playing it on my A3000.


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Karlos 
Re: I declare absolutely everything jailed in this emulated Omniverse!
Posted on 18-Dec-2022 0:35:00
#10 ]
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Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3511
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@bhabbott

Gold plated phono jacks compared to corroded connections? Come on, that's obvious. As for the rest it's absolute bloody snake oil. You think I was joking? https://www.audiologica.co.uk/product/audioquest-diamond-ethernet/

Here they try to claim that "strand interaction" causes audio degradation. In a network cable linking up digital components. There are resellers that "individually test each cable's directionality" to make sure that your storage medium and DAC are put on the optimum ends of the cable based on listening tests.

The same company make those ludicrously thick cables you mention, only with "actively biased dialectic" with some 72v pack etc. There's literally no credible science to any of it, they are simply taking the piss out of people too stupid, but well heeled enough to to go along with it. The classic "a fool and his money are easily parted" has never been more relevant.

The mentality at work here is the same one that if told they are using the real hardware but are in fact using a hidden, cycle exact emulation will praise the experience and if told they are using a cycle exact emulation, when in fact they are using real hardware will claim they could tell all along. Such is the subjectivity of user experience.

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agami 
Re: I declare absolutely everything jailed in this emulated Omniverse!
Posted on 18-Dec-2022 5:38:33
#11 ]
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Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1290
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Karlos

Quote:
Karlos wrote:
@bhabbott

As for the rest it's absolute bloody snake oil. You think I was joking? https://www.audiologica.co.uk/product/audioquest-diamond-ethernet/

Holy crap. That price could only be justified if the cable used room-temperature superconductors.

The inverse ratio of money:sense is strong with these people.

Last edited by agami on 18-Dec-2022 at 05:39 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: I declare absolutely everything jailed in this emulated Omniverse!
Posted on 18-Dec-2022 9:19:43
#12 ]
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Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3511
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@agami

It gets worse. There are solid silver conductor USB cables costing around 1000 dollars.

When I first saw the ethernet cable and the claims about directionality, I assumed they were using the network cable to transmit balanced line analogue audio as why would they even test something so preposterous. As anyone familiar with electrical signalling knows, the whole point of the twisted pairs in long cables is that they carry mirror signals. You then invert one and mix them. The idea is that the signal then constructively mixes and any induced noises from other sources destructively mixes giving much improved SNR in places with inductive noise sources. It's what XLR cables do. But no. These are network cables intended to link together digital components using regular digital packets.

That's right. Suddenly ethernet cable, the cheapest of which can reliably carry thousands of times the data bandwidth needed by consumer digital audio gear now needs solid silver conductors and needs to be expertly tested (by a fellow audiophile technician) to ensure the cable ends are labelled correctly for the best audio reproduction. It's absolutely laughable. And yet, people still buy it.

As for valve amps, don't get me started. They are excellent for a range of applications (especially high power were most semiconductors can't cope) but purity of audio reproduction is not one of them. To underscore how little these people understand, the largest contributor of white noise in any good analogue circuit is thermal, the random motion of electrons in conductors that increases with temperature. Valves use a heated election emitter. Thermal noise is pretty much injected directly into the signal, but no, valve amps are superior. Don't get me wrong, they do have a unique "colour" and amplification characteristics that sound nice, but they have that by virtue of distorting the signal being amplified in characteristic ways not shared by semiconductor amplification.

Take the Venn intersection of subjectivity and gullibility and you will find a high proportion of audiophiles waiting to be fleeced and manufactures know it.

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Templario 
Re: I declare absolutely everything jailed in this emulated Omniverse!
Posted on 18-Dec-2022 10:34:34
#13 ]
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Joined: 22-Jun-2004
Posts: 3625
From: Unknown

@QBit
Yes the emulation for some cases is a good solution, for example for the game Last Battle with the emulation now is playable, in a real Amiga 500 the experience was very bad, slowest. And to develop games and programs and test.

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SHADES 
Re: I declare absolutely everything jailed in this emulated Omniverse!
Posted on 18-Dec-2022 23:24:39
#14 ]
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Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 841
From: Melbourne

@Karlos

As for Valve amps, that distortion and colour of sound is excatly what a lot of modern day musicians want. There is a lot of money currently put in to creating digital signal processing, to emulate transformer colouration and valve stage amplification, for production. It's not about purity (1-1 reproduction) and also why tube amps are still made and used. It's just not as simple as you perceive.
Now that I have said all this, 80% of the colour and tone for guitar is in the speaker cabinet and drivers and modeling DSP units are amazing these days. I for one, bought a Yamaha Helix that I still use to this day live, and I'm still speachless about what it can do.
That being said, I completely agree with the cable crap.

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Karlos 
Re: I declare absolutely everything jailed in this emulated Omniverse!
Posted on 19-Dec-2022 7:36:19
#15 ]
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@SHADES

As a musician, yes, of course you do, on individual tracks in your mix. I'm talking about valve amplification in the audiophile domain. HiFi, headphone amps etc. I'm not decrying the sound of valve amplification, even for those uses. I actually quite like it. But nobody can credibly claim it's an honest reconstruction of the input.

Last edited by Karlos on 19-Dec-2022 at 07:47 AM.

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SHADES 
Re: I declare absolutely everything jailed in this emulated Omniverse!
Posted on 19-Dec-2022 20:26:40
#16 ]
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Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 841
From: Melbourne

@Karlos

Quote:
But nobody can credibly claim it's an honest reconstruction of the input.


I agree, somewhat. However, even digital has limits Vs size.
To sample the "most assured not to be heard" natural harmonics that are generated by real instrument vibration and stored via an analogue technique, can clearly be simulated. This is why a lot of plugins for music require "oversampling" which also, has limits, however is much better than not having it.
Visually, it is far worse however, our brain is marvellous at filling in blanks.

To store full scale, high resolution, uncompressed video is still difficult.

Analogue may induce more noise, however the signal is attenuated differently, via magnetic particle and spin properties instead of zapping-off frequency limits. Some say a good magnetic tape can have more original natural harmonics than any digital recording, and we can measure this, however, as to if you can hear it....well yes. That's very debatable. Terms like depth and feel often get thrown around like they are easily understood, something I really struggle with. That is not to say, adding in some tape saturation to a mix, does tend to "glue" it together. there's another useless term.

Then there is the whole storage.
Current spinning rust still stores analogue via conversion from digital. It gets very complicated thinking like this.

Last edited by SHADES on 19-Dec-2022 at 08:30 PM.

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Karlos 
Re: I declare absolutely everything jailed in this emulated Omniverse!
Posted on 19-Dec-2022 21:33:01
#17 ]
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From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@SHADES

Well, I think people grossly misunderstand digital. They know it's quantised and that introduces a Dunning Kruger effect where they imagine this chair step approximation of some smooth continuous signal. That's not true. The output of any DAC has to go through a reconstitution filter to avoid the gazillions of alias frequencies that would otherwise pass through the same set of discrete points. The result is a smoothly varying analogue signal.

When the reconstruction filter has the same cutoff parameters as the antialiasing filter used when capturing the original signal then the difference between the filtered input and reconstructed output can be minimised beyond any person's ability to tell without having to go nuts with the quantisation step. 48kHz 24 bit with 24kHz cutoff is about as objectively good as it gets. Systems process the digital data at higher rates to for all sorts of valid reasons but for playback, 192kHz 24 bit is just willy waving.

Last edited by Karlos on 19-Dec-2022 at 10:06 PM.
Last edited by Karlos on 19-Dec-2022 at 09:36 PM.

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SHADES 
Re: I declare absolutely everything jailed in this emulated Omniverse!
Posted on 20-Dec-2022 5:53:37
#18 ]
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Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 841
From: Melbourne

@Karlos

Quote:
When the reconstruction filter has the same cutoff parameters as the antialiasing filter used when capturing the original signal then the difference between the filtered input and reconstructed output can be minimised beyond any person's ability to tell without having to go nuts with the quantisation step. 48kHz 24 bit with 24kHz cutoff is about as objectively good as it gets. Systems process the digital data at higher rates to for all sorts of valid reasons but for playback, 192kHz 24 bit is just willy waving.


That's not relevant when mixing in reverb and delay approximation into tracks.
You can do the experimentation yourself.
Some may argue, it doesn't matter because, the majority of all music gets mixed back down into 44.1 most of the time and as you just pointed out, there are filters to do sign curve approximation etc etc however, it absolutely has weird sound artefacts prior to dumping to 44.1 if not mixed at higher resolutions and bit depths. You can easily see this yourself with monitoring plugins and test5 samples. Jump onto YouTube and you will find such explanations with visual confirmation. Those of us that work with audio know all too well about unwanted aliasing. It is totally a thing. When dumped to analogue, that aliasing just shelves off into infinity (noise background) instead of reflecting in the digital domain as annoying artefacts. Analogue just gets more dithered as it gets harder to imprint.

Does this mean analogue is better than digital? no it does not.
You just need to understand what you are working with and the pros and cons of each.
If you understand your noise floor and bit depth rendering, once your achieved effect is mixed in the box, the filtering to 44.1 is applied to the overall combination of the tracks and so, doesn't suffer from the same processing. All those high frequency reflections are mushed up with the other sounds. The point is, those interactions were done correctly calculated and plotted with the oversampling headroom of higher resolution, not mushed up with the incorrect artefacts generated by limited digital lower sample domains.

I'm not explaining this well. Have a look at this. Some of it will be very basic to you, like Nyquist theory, but persist a little.

https://youtu.be/-jCwIsT0X8M

Last edited by SHADES on 20-Dec-2022 at 06:02 AM.
Last edited by SHADES on 20-Dec-2022 at 05:56 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: I declare absolutely everything jailed in this emulated Omniverse!
Posted on 20-Dec-2022 9:39:19
#19 ]
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@SHADES

This is why I said "systems process the digital data at higher for all sorts of valid reasons". Effects processing is definitely one of them and synthesis is another. One of the reasons digital synthesis struggles with cymbal reproduction, for example, is the huge number of ultrasonic harmonics that constructively interact within the audio range. If you can't process the ultrasonic components to begin with, you won't get their emergent effects in the audible range.

However, a linear PCM sample of a cymbal at 48kHz 16-bit properly captured and reproduced with a 24kHz antialias/reconstruction filters will sound no different to the best analogue capture to most people, especially considering the frequency response range of the equipment used to play back the audio.

It is interesting that you chose reverb as an example though, since most reverb relies on modelling the absorption of high frequency components of the source sound in the reflection return by attenuation in the air and properties of the reflect surface by... Filtering.

Last edited by Karlos on 20-Dec-2022 at 09:51 AM.

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Karlos 
Re: I declare absolutely everything jailed in this emulated Omniverse!
Posted on 20-Dec-2022 11:47:18
#20 ]
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Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 3511
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@SHADES

Quote:
Those of us that work with audio know all too well about unwanted aliasing.


I consider myself as an "audiophile", in the truest sense of the word in that acoustics, sound generation, processing and capture are of interest to me. Not in the cretinous sense of paying exorbitant prices for hardware making no objective, quantifiable improvement to the reproduction of recorded audio :)

To that end, I'm a musician (admittedly amateur) but as a coder I've built my own software modular synthesis from first principles. Literally, beginning with a graphing calculator working out how phase modulation works. Just for the shits and giggles, I eventually implemented said synthesis and a sequencer n PHP just so that I can have some sound in my "PHP demo engine" project.

An example here https://youtu.be/qr4CvcSNHtM

All sound is synthesised, processed and mixed entirely on the fly. Due to performance limitations (I mean it's a language intended for website backends) it's mono 48kHz with no EQ or other post processing.

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