Finally Raspberry 5 has been announced, 2x CPU power and 2x GPU power,

Specs
2.4GHz quad-core 64-bit Arm Cortex-A76 CPU
VideoCore VII GPU, supporting OpenGL ES 3.1, Vulkan 1.2
Dual 4Kp60 HDMI® output (HDR + HEVC decoder)
LPDDR4X-4267 SDRAM (4GB and 8GB options)
Dual-band 802.11ac Wi-Fi® + Bluetooth 5.0 / BLE
microSD card slot (high-speed SDR104 mode)
PCIe 2.0 x1 interface for fast peripherals (requires adapter)
4 × USB ports (2 x 3.0 @ 5Gbps & 2 x 2.0)
Gigabit Ethernet (PoE+ requires separate PoE+ HAT)
2 × 4-lane MIPI camera/display ports
5V/5A DC power via USB-C, with Power Delivery support
Raspberry Pi standard 40-pin GPIO header
Real-time clock (RTC), powered from external battery
$60

So keeping this Amiga related, (of course), Amiga emulation on the Pi4 was already fast enough, but what's wrong going a little faster!! Plus for me on my Pi400 the Rabbit Hole feature that lets you access the Linux desktop in the background always felt just a bit slow, not by much but, a bit more power for this system felt necessary, as resources I guess were split between emulation and the native desktop, so hope this will fix these issues and Amikit XE / Amiberry gets a nice update to take advantage of the extra power.

I still think Amiga / Cloanto & Raspberry Pi Foundation are missing a trick and it would be amazing if they got together to make a slightly themed Amiga Pi 500 with a Amikit XE type setup to show to the masses what AmigaOs can do, and have all the old education apps , games and programs like Amos are exactly what Pi is trying to do with these systems.

Of course there also then the Pistorm powered by Pi5, again likely overkill, but still why not?

Plus also with the Arm chip getting better and better, PPC Emulation is another area I think should be looked into.

I mean Pistorm that could also offer G3/G4 PPC emulation so the classic Amiga users could have a cheap / new way to add PPC to there system would be really cool.

So what you thought on Pi5 and the impact this will have on the Amiga community

https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-5/
https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/raspberry-pi-5?variant=41044580171859

Last edited by amigang on 28-Sep-2023 at 11:43 AM.
Last edited by amigang on 28-Sep-2023 at 09:47 AM.

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@amigang

I would love to see AROS running on this beast, and have AROS 68k running seamless!

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The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

Not sure if this would be suitable for Pistorm as its a bit more power hungry.

If it works obviously the extra performance would help with Web Browsing, 3D Rendering (software & games) & Video Playback. It would be kind of fun to see these areas get another boost but much more important for Pistorm is continuing to improve compatibility.

@pixie

Ive never owned a Raspberry Pi or Installed AROS (apart from a virtual box) but have been interested in both for years. If or should I say when AROS works on Pi5 I will go for it .

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I’ll wait for version 6! Now that will be true revolution!

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Don't say that your put me off for another 4 years . But seriously, if your in no hurry when it comes to tech, there are certain moments when something improves to such a point that not only does it become more useful but you end up get more bang for your buck; I think the Pi5 arrival will be one of them.

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A2000+Supra28mhz+9mbRAM+OS3.2.2, CD32 & WinUAE

@thread

I welcome the Raspberry Pi 5, and I think I will eventually get one. If not this year, then next year. Big fan of this segment.

Additionally, I just have to say something about those who are pining for PPC emulation on really good performance-to-cost ratio ARM systems:
The absolute "need" for 68k emulation stems from both the unavailability of actual 68k hardware, and the fact that the vast majority of a very large library of 68k software for the Amiga is essentially abandonware. There is no one around to port these products to a newer architecture.

Most of the PPC software written for or ported to AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS is not considered abandonware, with most of them being in semi-active or active development. Unlike most of the 68k software they can port these to run natively on ARM.

Unless people are admitting that PPC hardware is for all personal computing intents and purposes dead, and AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS PPC are essentially abandonware, and the only way to keep running these operating systems and their software is via PPC emulation.

So unless MorphOS makes an announcement soon, I say bring on AROS for Raspberry Pi, and have the semi-active and active developers port their wares to run native on ARM via AROS for Pi.

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All the way, with 68k

@agami

Well in terms of PPC hardware upgrade path for classic Amiga, I’d say it is “abandonware”

The amount of options and boards are getting harder to find, I know mediator PCI kinda help with options,
https://amitopia.com/powerpc-upgrade-30-euros-amiga-mediatorpci/

But even then it’s can be a bit of hacks solution that not gonna work for everyone and even pci ppc card that work are getting rare. I heard that phase5 might do another run of PPC cards but not heard any news on that in years, fpga ppc seem unlikely on any affordable fpga chipset Amiga community would have, so emulation may be the way to go.

So a Pistorm that could do PPC would be brilliant.

Yes I know arm supported Amigaos/aros would be nice but Amiga world has got 2 decades of ppc software, might not be a huge catalogue, but it be a shame to ignore that.

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I’m still thinking of getting the Pi 400. Looks like a nice complete syatem.

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@amigang

Dammit! Just got myself an OrangePI 5+. I, for one, would sincerely welcome porting Amiga (any flavour, mind) to the ARM (and possibly RISC-V) architecture and be done with that steeply priced special and dedicated Amiga hardware.

Got a dead MicroA1, a (probably) broken X5000 (awaiting an answer from A-EON Technology about possible repair for quite some time now) and a just-sitting-there ElBox-ed A1200 with a whole slew of bells and whistles.
It does not need a huge amount of imagination to envision my interest dwindling by the day.

OldFart

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@amigang

Here the guys dont see one important thing the PCIe slot... It mean the PI will be able to install pcie boards example GPUS (with adapter). The bottleneck on the PI is the GPU with a faster gpu for sure everything on this small board will be magic.

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tlosm Quote:

Here the guys dont see one important thing the PCIe slot... It mean the PI will be able to install pcie boards example GPUS (with adapter). The bottleneck on the PI is the GPU with a faster gpu for sure everything on this small board will be magic.

The Cortex-A76 CPU cores are strong aggressively OoO micro-oped cores like most x86-64 cores. They are comparable to several generations old x86-64 and Apple ARM CPU cores in performance. This is made possible by moving to 16nm (Pi 4: 28nm, Pi 3: 40nm) but a smaller process would have been better to reduce heat (Cortex-A76 designed for 5-12nm process). It should be possible to underclock to reduce heat as a fan is recommended and adds cost.

Single Core DMIPS/MHz
---
Cortex-M0+ 1.16 (RPi Pico/RP2040)
68060 1.52+
PPC440/460EX 1.80 (Sam440/460)
ColdFireV5 1.83
QorIQ-P1022/e500v2 2.4 (A1222)
Cortex-A53 2.88 (RPi 3)
Cortex-A72 5.45 (RPi 4)
Cortex-A76 6.60 (RPi 5)

The RPi 5 GPU looks like it is the same as a RPi 4 GPU but clocked up significantly with much improved memory performance. The PCIe x1 slot is version 2.0 spec so 0.5 GiB/s data throughput (unofficial 3.0 spec with 1GiB/s) which is not good for a modern desktop GPU, requires an adapter and isn't compact as the slot sticks out the side. While a Cortex-A76 core may be able to emulate an A1222 e500v2 core at full speed, the A1222 has a version 1.0 spec PCIe x16 slot so 4 GiB/s of data throughput. The A1222 also has 2x SATA 2.6 while the RPi 5 best drive performance likely comes from USB 3.0 to SATA SSD but likely increases power draw more than a SD card which is also more compact but limited to about 90MiB/s throughput (about doubled from RPi 4 but still less than IDE max). I would have thought SATA would have been more useful than adding MIPI camera/display ports but maybe that is what the mobile phone SoC supports. Commodity mobile phone SoCs are cheap but like the A1222 embedded SoC, it's someone else's customization and probably not exactly what you want. There is a RPi Foundation custom ASIC on the RPi 5 so maybe they will eventually be able to design their own high end SoCs to replace the mobile phone SoCs allowing more customization and perhaps a reduction in the number of chips. Overall, the RPi 5 has super CPU performance for the price but has limited GPU options and large drive options could be simpler. It's imbalanced as far as CPU, GPU and drive performance but so is the A1222 with weak CPU performance compared to its GPU and drive potential performance. I expect there will be more RPi 5 heat and power problems as most mobile phones don't have much expansion connected at once. At some point it is better to have a regular case, expansion slots, bays and fans and once those are added it may not be much cheaper than low end x86-64 hardware that is setup for that.

It seems like there is an acceleration of Moore's Law due to the subsidization of chip foundries for national security reasons. New foundries use more modern chip fab processes which have become cheaper faster than they normally would be. Moore's Law is actually slowing down though as newer processes are taking longer to develop and cost more. It will save a lot of energy moving most chips up from 40-80nm to 10-40nm but it sure did antiquate older chips quickly. PowerPC was quickly crushed like the 68k was back in the day. The A1222 P1022 SoC at 45nm vs 16nm RPi 5 SoC is not a fair comparison. Fast product development cycles were required to sell hardware before it was outdated. Nothing happens fast in Amiga Neverland though.

Last edited by matthey on 01-Oct-2023 at 04:42 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 01-Oct-2023 at 02:59 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 30-Sep-2023 at 05:45 AM.

@OldFart

Quote:

OldFart wrote: @amigang Dammit! Just got myself an OrangePI 5+.

Good for you,

Quote:

Have you compared the Pi 5 to Orange Pi 5? Yes, also the Rock 5 B—see the comparisons in the performance section of my Pi 5 video. It is about as fast for PHP and media encoding, but the RK3588 and RK3588s (with their four additional Arm A55 cores) smoke the Pi in many compute-heavy benchmarks.

https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2023/answering-some-questions-about-raspberry-pi-5

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B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@agami

Agree with your thoughts.

I would suggest to everyone interested to toss the MorphOS Team a donation to show interest. Perhaps even with enough interest for a bounty and see if they bite. Mark aka Bigfoot was motivated by a bounty to update all the drivers and he is in the last stages of that. I'm pretty sure that he shown MorphOS running on a AMD processor so he might be a good source for other processors as well.

As we have discussed, they really mastered the OS and software ecosystem and sometimes I think we as a community focus a lot more on hardware than software, where frankly Software is more important.

I made some donations recently for important updates to PolyOrga, as I use that daily. I need to save up my pennies next for Jadacaps as Iris now works flawless with contacts/vcards and will have calendar integration/meeting invites likely by the end of the year. Using my PowerBook/Mac systems I'm mostly satisfied with the experience of the os and the applications for speed. Speed would be most helpful for Wayfarer, with some websites still rendering a bit slow and for Mplayer to play 4k media better.

I could see a point in the near future now that the OS and native applications are really at a good point where they might be able to focus on migration. I'm sorta glad they really focused on the software, as the hardware landscape has really opened up some nice options.

Last edited by Matt3k on 30-Sep-2023 at 11:18 AM.
Last edited by Matt3k on 30-Sep-2023 at 11:03 AM.

Last I looked the RPi 4 was the latest and just come back into fashion. But anyway. So whose the first to plug the Pi5 into their PiStorm? With a RPi5 in a PiStorm it could be like a Phase 5 PiStorm!

Hypex Quote:

Last I looked the RPi 4 was the latest and just come back into fashion. But anyway. So whose the first to plug the Pi5 into their PiStorm? With a RPi5 in a PiStorm it could be like a Phase 5 PiStorm!

Most people don't have a Pi 5 yet except the media and selected social influencers that are promoting it. The ARM Cortex-A76 CPU cores with higher performance memory should make it significantly higher performance than the RPi 4 for the PiStorm but the extra heat and power requirements means it may not be as invisible when embedded. A smaller chip process would have made it more practical for embedded use. The Orange Pi 5 has Cortex-A76 CPU cores and is using an 8nm chip process vs the 16nm process of the RPi 5. I haven't found a 4GiB version of the OPi so the extra 4GiB of memory and newer chip process makes it much more expensive if 4GiB of memory will suffice (OPi 8GiB $100 vs RPi 8GiB $80 but RPi 4GiB $60). The RPi has better software support being more open and more of a SBC standard. The OPi has 4 extra low power CPU cores, 2x M.2 connectors that can be converted to PCIe and runs cooler at the smaller node. The cheaper price of the RPi 5 and brand loyalty will likely be persuasive but RPi hardware is known for being low power and this reputation could be in jeopardy. The following is a good video on this competition.

Raspberry Pi 5: EVERYTHING you need to know
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBtOEmUqASQ&t=486s

After the competition comparison, the RPi PCIe slot is discussed and some gfx boards hooked up to the RPi with disappointing results. The problem is not connecting the hardware but major Linux driver problems. Maybe they need to add an AmigaOS 4 compatibility layer in the Linux kernel to use gfx drivers for AmigaOS 4. The same guy has an even funnier video of how bad Linux drivers are for the RPi and ARM as he tests even the best at the time NVidia and AMD graphics cards.

I tested EVERY graphics card on a Raspberry Pi!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9dItRUjQ0k

The video is older and using a RPi 4 compute module converted to provide PCIe x1 which is much cleaner than hacking a RPi 4 SBC USB 3.0 SerDes lane into a PCIe x1 slot even though it amazingly worked.

https://hackaday.com/2019/07/10/giving-the-pi-4-pci-express/

The Linux ARM SBC gfx card experience should be compared to an x86-64 SBC experience with Intel Celeron CPU at 14nm and M.2 providing PCIe x4 2.0.

Single Board Computer + GTX 1650 Can it Game? ODYSSEY / ReComputer SBC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLOUhaqkLqY

Up in no time playing games with the low end gfx card which is bottlenecked by the Intel Celeron CPU. The ReComputer is $218 but has Cadillac features for a small SBC. Seeed is marketing off the RPi as it includes a RPi 40 pin GPIO and RPi Foundation RP2040 ASIC that only costs $1.

https://www.seeedstudio.com/ODYSSEY-X86J4125800-v2-p-5531.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RP2040

x86-64 CPU cores don't scale down as far so the cost and power are higher than an ARM SBC. Wintel is still more standardized and has a software advantage over ARM with Linux even with AArch64 making the CPU more standardized. Using an integrated GPU is still the way to go for a SBC as it saves space, is potentially lower power, is potentially higher performance and fewer gfx drivers need to be supported. On x86-64, there is a game platform which requires a high performance CPU and GPU so it is often preferable for a x86-64 SBC SoC to come with a better GPU and the customer to pay up for the required performance. Most SBCs are small, low power and cheap so they don't include a higher performance GPU though. The RPi has been successful because the hardware is more standardized and open like the Amiga used to be. RPi is the new Amiga resurrected from the less popular ARM Acorn while the more loved 68k Amiga lost its way. For Amiga hardware to have a chance, it needs to return to a smaller footprint with the 68k, return to more standard hardware with the Amiga chipset for compatibility and compete more with the original Raspberry Pi and RP2040 SoC than a RPi 5.

Last edited by matthey on 01-Oct-2023 at 08:40 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 01-Oct-2023 at 08:34 PM.

@matthey

https://www.magazinmehatronika.com/en/raspberry-pi-5-model-b-review/


In fact, Raspberry Pi now makes a very beefy 5V/5A (25 W) power supply for its new boards (maybe a bit overkill, even, as you’ll see in the next paragraph), which is a significant step up from the 5V/3A (15 W) model designed for the Raspberry Pi 4. The newest Pi can technically run off a 15 W supply, but that leaves less room for peripherals and other accessories (and leaves more room for voltage drops), so grabbing one of the new bricks is recommended for ensuring smooth operation.

With a fan (more on that later), our Raspberry Pi 5 drew around 3 W when idle and 8.6 W under full load, which is about 1.5 W more than what the Raspberry Pi 4B required. The bare board, in our tests, drew around ~0.5 W less depending on the situation, so taking that into consideration, the new board needs just a watt more, yet is significantly more powerful than its predecessor.


Raspberry Pi 4B's IGP failed the Genshin Impact (Android) performance test.

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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hypex

PRi 5's GPIO is on PCIe bus hence it's not compatible with existing PiStorm software. There's no SMI on PRi 5.

Emu68 Raspi is for standalone configuration, but it requires customized Amiga ROM. The net result is a standalone Amithlon-like Emu68 setup.

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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@amigang

Still no M.2? Bummer...

@TRIPOS

Not until early 2024, when adapter boards will be available.

Cheers

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Hammer Quote:

https://www.magazinmehatronika.com/en/raspberry-pi-5-model-b-review/ In fact, Raspberry Pi now makes a very beefy 5V/5A (25 W) power supply for its new boards (maybe a bit overkill, even, as you’ll see in the next paragraph), which is a significant step up from the 5V/3A (15 W) model designed for the Raspberry Pi 4. The newest Pi can technically run off a 15 W supply, but that leaves less room for peripherals and other accessories (and leaves more room for voltage drops), so grabbing one of the new bricks is recommended for ensuring smooth operation. With a fan (more on that later), our Raspberry Pi 5 drew around 3 W when idle and 8.6 W under full load, which is about 1.5 W more than what the Raspberry Pi 4B required. The bare board, in our tests, drew around ~0.5 W less depending on the situation, so taking that into consideration, the new board needs just a watt more, yet is significantly more powerful than its predecessor.

The RPi 5 throttles after 30 seconds without a fan or heatsink. The idle power is three times that of the RPi 4. The RPi 5 has reduced appeal for embedded use. The memory is very energy efficient so I suspect the biggest increase in power is the transistors needed for microoped OoO CPU cores. It could be fixed by going smaller with the SoC chip process but cost is also important and the Orange Pi already went that route. The cooling and power supply also have a cost.

RPi 4GiB $62.87
RPi case with fan $10.48
RPi official 27W PSU $12.60
---
$85.95

RPi 8GiB $83.50
RPi case with fan $10.48
RPi official 27W PSU $12.60
---
$106.58

The value decreases with the 8GiB version as the Orange Pi is competitive for embedded use and low end Mini PC x86-64 hardware is competitive for desktop use and has a huge software advantage.

Mini PC Intel Celeron N4020 (up to 2.8GHz), 4GiB DDR4, eMMC 64GB $103
https://www.newegg.com/p/2SW-002G-00066

It's using an old discontinued SoC with Intel graphics but it is fanless, in a case and includes power supply. It has support for M.2 and eMMC as well. It only has 2 cores and 2 threads but it easily has better CPU performance than the RPi 4 while the RPi 5 would be closer, very close in single core performance while the RPi 5 may outperform it in multi-core performance. The Intel GPU easily outperforms the RPi 4 GPU but it would be much closer with the RPi 5 GPU.

https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-intel_celeron_n4020-vs-raspberry_pi_4_b_broadcom_bcm2711

The RPi 5 is approaching the crossover where x86-64 and ARM compete but there is a lot of competition here. The RPi 5 is missing competitive features, the GPU design doesn't have an upgrade path and the chip process is old for the CPU design, drawing more power and causing more heat but it allowed a little cheaper hardware than most of the competition, it has brand loyalty, it is more standard hardware and it has GPIO. It is probably good enough for the RPI Foundation to hold its position but I don't know where they go from here.

Hammer Quote:

Raspberry Pi 4B's IGP failed the Genshin Impact (Android) performance test.

The old low power RPi 5 integrated GPU actually responded very well to the increased memory bandwidth.

https://www.phoronix.com/review/raspberry-pi-5-graphics/2

It's getting 2-5 times the GPU performance for 3D benchmarks. The RPi 5 CPU and memory performance are a huge upgrade even though it may be better to significantly underclock the RPi 5 without good cooling. The active transistors are still a problem for idle power and are a no go for some embedded uses.

Edit: The power draw of the RPi 5 may be high considering how fast newer chip processes are being adopted by the competition even for relatively lower power SBCs. The ARM Coretex-A76 CPU cores are only the mid performance ARM CPU cores and there are 5 upgraded successor cores with incremental upgrades along with the higher performance Cortex-X line with the ARM Cortex-X4 being the highest performance ARM core in that line. To put the improvements in perspective, an ARM Cortex-A76 core already has more than twice the single core performance in DMIPS/MHz/core of a QorIQ P5020/P5040 PPC core using a 45nm process as used in the AmigaNOne X5000. The 4 CPU core P5040 SoC uses less than 45W max power while the RPi 5 with 4 CPU cores giving double the performance and with a GPU only needs a 27W power supply with room to power some external I/O.

CPU core | chip process | Single Core DMIPS/MHz
---
68060 500nm 1.52+
PPC970 90nm 2.9 (G5)
P5020 45nm 3.0 (X5000)
Cortex-A76 16nm 6.6 (RPi 5)

There is a larger performance gap between the best performance PPC CPU core ever vs ARM Cortex-A76, a mid performance 6 generation old ARM core, than there is between the 68060 and the best performing PPC core ever. From the 68060 to the P5020 is roughly a 450nm chip process advantage (91% shrink) while from the P5020 to Cortex-A76 there is only roughly a 29nm chip process advantage (28% shrink). Not even considering the 68060 is an in-order core using a tiny fraction of the transistors of these other OoO cores, maybe we can at least begin to see which cores are better designs. PPC is dead because nobody succeeded in making high performance PPC cores, including IBM, and low end PPC cores were just as disappointing. ARM didn't get to 2.0 DMIPS/MHz single core performance until the ARM Cortex-A8 in 2005 so PPC lived on for mid-performance embedded CPUs using less power than x86(-64) but that niche is long gone.

Last edited by matthey on 03-Oct-2023 at 11:27 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 03-Oct-2023 at 11:25 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 03-Oct-2023 at 11:20 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 03-Oct-2023 at 12:14 AM.