@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: @amigang commodore hardware with pistorm is not amiga. it is just joystick, mouse and keyboard inteface for rpi. nothing more.

False.

For example, https://youtu.be/ZG2dC_JD81Y
Emu68 (PiStorm and RPi 4B 2Ghz) pushed AGA displayed Clickboom's Quake demo1 into +60 fps.

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Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@NutsAboutAmiga:

>I do not know all different categories means, but you need a advanced Amiga, to have 3D graphics, >to write software, you need to find bugs, and this means you need a MMU, or you need to use >language that catch errors, any system that sucks at catching bugs, is useless for software >development.

My solution to the debugging issue is to always first develop on AmigaOS4, and once it runs port it back to 68k (if I want a 68k version). I would even develop a game intended for 68030 first on AmigaOS4. It is just easier to develop this way, with the catching bugs with stacktrace in case of crash instead of an instant reboot.

As to 3D Hardware, if the system is fast enough (like PiStorm) stuff like games can be done in software renderer. Of course it would be great to have 3D HW on these systems in the (near) future.

@matthey:

>Yes, Amiga support is fragmenting and diverging. This includes both the hardware and the >AmigaOS with 68000+OCS or 68020+AGA or 68020+AGA+RTG being the base hardware spec >and AmigaOS 3.1 being the base AmigaOS spec.

Personally I do not see 000+OCS or 020+AGA or 020+AGA+RTG as a target market. I see 060+RTG, Vampire and PiStorm as the three 68k markets. Yes there is a market for 030/040+AGA too but I currently have no games for those. Maybe in the future. 020? Definitely no. Too slow, and I expect in the time to make a new games most of these will get some updates anyways.

As to the fragmenting, the Amiga base was ALWAYS fragmented. In old times you had A500, A1200 and A4000. The only difference is back then anything but the lowend was basically ignored. Now the Mid and Highend is no longer ignored.

For each title I look how it runs and then say what the minimum specs are. Tries to optimizations sure, but there are limits what you can do. Something like 020 is completely out of reach for the kind of titles I do.

@ppcamiga1:
>amiga community don't need 64 bit or thumb in 68k
>what is really needed is cheap real (FPGA or ASIC) 68k with easy to use 16 bit graphics

While it would be nice to have a modern architecture I sort of agree there. And for the close future I would add OpenGL-capable 3D HW to this list you pose here, and a performance at least equivalent to a Pi3 using Emu68. Better at the level of a Pi4.

>commodore hardware with pistorm is not amiga.
>it is just joystick, mouse and keyboard inteface for rpi.
>nothing more.

You are wrong. Try a PiStorm A1200. You see nothing but an A1200 in front of you (when I saw Heretic2 68k first time running on a A1200 - which looks just like a naked A1200 to the eye, no expansion visible - I thought WOW. JUST WOW.)

BTW Emulation on PiStorm is more comparable to the JIT running on OS4, Petunia. You woud never claim an x1000 is no longer an Amiga because of Petunia ?

Both x1000 and PiStorm systems are Amigas. What CPU works there is completely irrelevant to the user. And if you use one you notice that. Added to that, what do have both ARM and PowerPC in common ? They both have this "coolness factor" - like 68k had when Amiga first came out - compared to "boring" x86 CPUs. That's my personal emotional opinion on it of course.

MagicSN

@MagicSN

I'm right and you are wrong.

commodore hardware with pistorm is not amiga.
it is just joystick, mouse and keyboard inteface for rpi.
nothing more.

don't lie !!! don't spread pistorm propaganda bs.
emulator on rpi is not comparable to the JIT running on MOS or Amiga OS 4.
MOS or Amiga OS 4 is native !!! whole os is native !!!
68k software on MOS and Amiga OS4 use NATIVE ppc code.
just 68k code is translated to ppc code.

cpu is important
if you want to use x86 use windows
if you want to use arm use android

@ppcamiga1

if you want to use PowerCraPC use MacOS or MacOS X before the switch to Intel.

Commodore hardware with an UnderPoweredPC is not amiga.

Emulator on MOS or Amiga OS 4 is not comparable to the JIT running on WinUAE or, even better, Amithlon or, even more better, Emu68.

MOS or Amiga OS 4 is NOT native !!! whole os is NOT native !!!

68k software on MOS and Amiga OS4 do NOT use NATIVE 68k code: they are just emulators, like any others!

@ppcamiga1

commodore hardware with pistorm is not amiga?

But PPC Macs with MOS or X1000/X5000 with AmigaOS are not amiga either with your definition

@cdimauro

Quote:

if you want to use PowerCraPC use MacOS or MacOS X before the switch to Intel.

Huh, why not Linux or BSD?

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B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@kolla: why you are so evil?

@MagicSN

Quote:

Try a PiStorm A1200. You see nothing but an A1200 in front of you (when I saw Heretic2 68k first time running on a A1200 - which looks just like a naked A1200 to the eye, no expansion visible - I thought WOW. JUST WOW.)

This is what p*sses him off the most. He can't stand the basic fact that the original Amiga can be made to do such things.

I bought an A1200 because it was more capable and more expandable than my A600. I bought my first 040 card because it allowed me to do more things, more quickly than my 020/Fast. I bought a BlizzPPC because it allowed me to do yet even more things. I bought the BVision for it because it allowed me to do even more things again. My interests were music, coding and other creative things primarily and gaming second. I got into the NG scene in the early days too, but it seems to have ended up beached.

For these reasons I personally see the PiStorm as the perfect way to rejoin that journey*. It's available, affordable and much more powerful than any physical 68K espansion.

*Assuming I ever get my A1200 properly serviced, that is.

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Doing stupid things for fun...

@cdimauro

I don’t grasp what’s so evil about that… aren’t we all computer enthusiasts?

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B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

It sounds like the consensus is that real Amigas have 68k under the hood and all other CPUs no matter x86, PowerPC, or ARM need not apply.

How does one get new hardware to run AmigaOS 3.2?

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@ppcamiga1

You even know to whom you are talking here ?

I am the guy who was involved in a high percentage of game ports to AmigaOS 4. I probably forgot more about AmigaOS coding and hardware than you ever knew.

And I do not do "propaganda for PiStorm", I use AmigaOS 4 (my primary Amiga system) as well as PiStorm and Vampire. Actualy the different systems give higher chance to OS4 titles too. Each of the Amiga variants is on their own not strong enough to survive. Which is why I support AmigaOS4, PiStorm, Vampire (and hopefully soon WarpOS) were possible.

And 68k software on OS4, MOS or Pistorm - it works the same way, through a JIT Emulator.
With your words "just 68k code is translated to ARM Code". Same principle.

If you seit in front of two A1200s, one with a real 68k, and one with a PiStorm and don't know which is which, what are you doing then ? Not using either for fear of using by mistake one with a different CPU ? Asides from the different speed and the bootup screen you won't notice the difference.

Just try it out. You won't really notice a difference when using a PiStorm Amiga just that it is faster and that it has RTG already in (of course it is still slower than an x1000 let alone a x5000), but when you use two systems (strictly 68k systems, the OS of a Pistorm will still be a 68k OS so many of the nice features of a OS4 system will be missing) they will be both the same.

And I don't let you tell me what system I should use based on the CPU I have. That is my own decision, not yours. Unless you pay me a monthly salary you cannot decide what OS I use. And even then I can use privately a different one than you want.

And what if I tell you that some OS4 titles have actually been compiled on a x86 system under Windows ? Does it matter ? No, it does not matter at all...

MagicSN

@AmigaMac

Quote:

real Amigas have 68k under the hood

Real Amiga has Amiga chipset under the hood.

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B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@kolla

Real Amiga use AmigaOS. Just that.

@AmigaMac

Quote:

real Amigas have 68k under the hood

Real Amiga has Amiga chipset under the hood.

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B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@all: keep calm. What's an Amiga was already clearly defined by Commodore and it's a machine that should have:
- a processor from Motorola 68k family;
- the custom chipset (OCS, ECS, and AGA);
- the Amiga o.s. (pay attention: not the AmigaOS or the Amiga OS. The Amiga o.s. = the Amiga operating system).

Definitions are important, and people should use them instead of reporting their wishes.

RTFM!


@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @cdimauro I don’t grasp what’s so evil about that… aren’t we all computer enthusiasts?

Yes, but not computer masochists.

@MagicSN

Real Amiga have the look & feel of AmigaOS

And now?

@cdimauro

You define a retro machine. Nothing against that, I like the 68k platform for a number of reasons. But if we talk about "NG" in any context here, that is not enough

Ah this old incendiary.

There are Amigas and Compatibles and there is AmigaOS. Only the trademark holder can really tell you what an Amiga is, but for the avoidance of doubt, my take is that the Amiga is the original series of 68K/custom chipset machines made by commodore that ran AmigaOS as their primary OS. Compatibles include any machines that also run AmigaOS as their primary OS but are not the original commode hardware. I also hold that AmigaOS4 is still AmigaOS, despite the CPU architecture change.

Under this definition, all newer NG machines are "compatibles".

Again, this is my take. Yours may be different.

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Doing stupid things for fun...

@kolla

I just don’t have space for collection of classic hardware, and its expensive.
in my experience all the adapters, special monitors, and flickering was annoying.
we see old classic games on LCD, being played at 25 FPS, it’s just not same experience has had back in 80’s, no matter what, I was never a true gamer to begin with, I was more interested in how things were made. The lack of support for multitasking in old games puts me off as well. These things just don’t cut it for me anymore, so 90% of stuff chipset is used for, is irrelevant to me, anyway its wrong approach anyways, good software use API’s, it does bang hardware. and you should be using a playback routine. Static linking is stupid, that how get stuck with B/W and 2bit sound.

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Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: @MagicSN I'm right and you are wrong. commodore hardware with pistorm is not amiga. it is just joystick, mouse and keyboard inteface for rpi. nothing more. don't lie !!! don't spread pistorm propaganda bs. emulator on rpi is not comparable to the JIT running on MOS or Amiga OS 4. MOS or Amiga OS 4 is native !!! whole os is native !!! 68k software on MOS and Amiga OS4 use NATIVE ppc code. just 68k code is translated to ppc code. cpu is important if you want to use x86 use windows if you want to use arm use android

68000 was Motorola's toy, not Commodore's. The big chunk of 68000 is the micro-coded ROM you fool. 68000's simple CPU core executes 68K instructions in several clock cycles.

Commodore has purchased 68000 licensed clones.

The main purpose of the Amiga chipset is to patch the multimedia incompetent weak IPC 68000.

A500 with PiStorm-Emu68 and stock A500 plays Metro Siege out of the box! Just works! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-epWxOG5eg

I tested Metro Siege with A500 with PiStorm-RPi3A+ Emu68.

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Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB