@cdimauro

Quote:

NEVER. Where did you got it? AA+ was the low-end system. Not even the AAA machines planned to have the DSP integrated.

Hint: this topic is a "What If". Look in the mirror.

Quote:

Eggbrecht clearly stated that it would have been considered for FUTURE products, once the 16-bit audio is widespread.

So, your "What IF" is valid while Eggbrecht's plans are not valid.

You're a self-centered hypocrite.

_________________
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@cdimauro

Quote:

That's the PCB. Whereas I was talking about the CHIPSET, which was costed MUCH LESS compared to the A1200 one.

It's the PCB with components on it. I wasn't talking about bare PCB mainboard.

CHIPSET alone does NOT complete the Amiga PCB.

Again, Akiko only integrates enough services from AA Gayle, two CIAs, Budgie, DMA CD-ROM Controller (displaced AA Gayle's PIO IDE) and hardware C2P. Akiko's fabrication is out sourced to VTI instead of in-house CSG.

A1200's four chips reduced to one Akiko chip. Budgie is already out-source fabricated by VTI or LSI.

AA Gayle and two CIAs are fabricated by in-house CSG.

CD32 just wreaked your in-house CSG argument. CD32's Akiko chip has reduced in-house CSG participation.


-------------------

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Zw8AAOSwrklioMd4/s-l1600.webp
CSG's fabricated LiSA 1992 chip picture. CSG can fabricate LiSA, but not in the numbers required by bean counters.



Quote:

Have you took a look at the BOM material? I don't think so.

Look in the mirror.

Last edited by Hammer on 05-Sep-2024 at 08:17 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 05-Sep-2024 at 08:07 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 05-Sep-2024 at 07:58 AM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: NEVER. Where did you got it? AA+ was the low-end system. Not even the AAA machines planned to have the DSP integrated. Hint: this topic is a "What If". Look in the mirror.

Hint: Nature was a very bad step mother with you, since you continue to miss the context and do NOT understand what people write.

Specifically, I've absolutely NO problem with "What Ifs": I've also wrote mines!

However, you're stating something completely different here. See below.
Quote:

Quote: Eggbrecht clearly stated that it would have been considered for FUTURE products, once the 16-bit audio is widespread. So, your "What IF" is valid while Eggbrecht's plans are not valid. You're a self-centered hypocrite.

Your problem is that you don't know what Eggbrecht stated. There was NO "what If" with him, because he clearly reported his vision about the DSPs.

In fact, here are the FACTs:
- there was NO plan to use them on AA+ machines;
- AA+ machines were targeted for Commodore's mainstream market AKA low-cost machines. Whereas you pretend to add $20-30+$20=$40-$50 to the BOM of such machines only for integrating your useless DSP;
- not even the high-end- machines, based on AAA, were supposed to be equipped with the DSP;
- Eggebrecht said that DSP would have been included on FUTURE machines, WHEN the 16-bit audio would have been more common. FUTURE machines which do NOT include neither the AA+ nor the AAA, since it was NOT mentioned the DSP on such interview when he was talking about AA+ and AAA.

So, your "AA+ machines with the DSP" is NOT a "What if" from Eggbrecht, but something that YOU have invented. from scratch.

You live in the land of confusion...

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: That's the PCB. Whereas I was talking about the CHIPSET, which was costed MUCH LESS compared to the A1200 one. It's the PCB with components on it. I wasn't talking about bare PCB mainboard. CHIPSET alone does NOT complete the Amiga PCB. Again, Akiko only integrates enough services from AA Gayle, two CIAs, Budgie, DMA CD-ROM Controller (displaced AA Gayle's PIO IDE) and hardware C2P. Akiko's fabrication is out sourced to VTI instead of in-house CSG. A1200's four chips reduced to one Akiko chip. Budgie is already out-source fabricated by VTI or LSI. AA Gayle and two CIAs are fabricated by in-house CSG. CD32 just wreaked your in-house CSG argument. CD32's Akiko chip has reduced in-house CSG participation. ------------------- https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Zw8AAOSwrklioMd4/s-l1600.webp CSG's fabricated LiSA 1992 chip picture. CSG can fabricate LiSA, but not in the numbers required by bean counters.

Again, you continue to live on the land of confusion. In fact, the PCB was NOT part of this (sub)part of the discussion.

I was explicitly and ONLY talking about the chipset:

the CD32 proves that a BIG cost reduction would be possible, since the Amiga chipset is... an INTERNAL component. Whereas the DSP was still listed $20-30 at the beginning of the 1993, according to Eggbrecht.

Do you understand the meaning of the "chipset" word here? Does it imply the PCB?

Do you understand that this sentence was a reply to what YOU have stated before:

Alice, Lisa, and Paula wouldn't be operational without Gayle's or Fat Gary's address generation services.

Alice + Lisa + Paula + Fat Gary = $30.49

For audio, Paula would need Fat Gary/Gary and Alice/Agnus i.e. $15.49.

? Do you get that even YOU were talking about ONLY the chips of the chipset and NOT about the PCB?!?
Quote:

Quote: Have you took a look at the BOM material? I don't think so. Look in the mirror.

No, I'm just looking at what YOU've written: you have no clue at all of that the discussion was about, and start talking of completely different things.

A quick recap for you, since Nature was a very bad step mother with you:
- YOU were talking about the CHIPS of the Amiga chipset;
- I've replied talking about the SAME, and showing that CD32 had BIG cost reduction with them;
- YOU've started talking about ALL CD32 costs, included the PCB.

You live in the land of confusion! You don't need a mirror, but a good specialist...

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: Quote: OneTimer1 wrote: There was no easy fix for a chip, that was so tightly integrated into the Amiga chipset. There were easy fix possible for the Amiga chipset. The problem is finding engineers able to understand how it worked, and how to properly evolve it..

I have written about the lack of investments before, hiring hardware developers improving ECS systems would have been a good investment.

@cdimauro

Quote:

Nature was a very bad step mother with you,

That's you. For the record, you started the personality-based flame war.


Quote:

@cdimauro, our problem is that you don't know what Eggbrecht stated. There was NO "what If" with him, because he clearly reported his vision about the DSPs. In fact, here are the FACTs: - there was NO plan to use them on AA+ machines; - AA+ machines were targeted for Commodore's mainstream market AKA low-cost machines. Whereas you pretend to add $20-30+$20=$40-$50 to the BOM of such machines only for integrating your useless DSP; - not even the high-end- machines, based on AAA, were supposed to be equipped with the DSP; - Eggebrecht said that DSP would have been included on FUTURE machines, WHEN the 16-bit audio would have been more common. FUTURE machines which do NOT include neither the AA+ nor the AAA, since it was NOT mentioned the DSP on such interview when he was talking about AA+ and AAA.

Wrong narrative.

FACTS:

1. From http://www.bambi-amiga.co.uk/amigahistory/leweggebrecht.html

Quote:

Question: Does that mean that a AA+ machine will have a DSP? Lew: "We can't make that decision right now - it's something we'll have to look at but in that time frame, even in the low end, every machine is likely to have a DSP. It's a cost thing - although the AT&T chip itself is only $20 to $30 or so. AT&T has a number of lower cost options, as well, that are designed more specifically to go on the motherboard. The problem with the present DSP design is that it has one serial channel and everything you attach to it has to be run through at that channel rate. I think th ey're looking at having four independent channels running at different clock rates, and with that kind of enhancement, DSP makes a lot of sense."

a. "even in the low end, every machine is likely to have a DSP".
b. "It's a cost thing".

2. A1200 unit sold has $50 old debt tax.

From Commodore the Inside Story The Untold Tale of a Computer Giant by David Pleasance
Quote:

In 1992, a Scottish company called SCI started to build Amiga 1200s for Commodore International. The manufacturing contract was issued out of Commodore Hong Kong, who bought the machines from SCI and sold them to Commodore Electronics Limited (CEL) in Switzerland, who would then sell them on to the various Commodore entities around the world. But by the end of the year, Commodore International was running out of cash and ended up short-paying SCI by $20 million. Early in 1993, Commodore notified the Securities and Exchange Commission that its financial future was at risk and therefore that Commodore UK could be deemed to be trading while insolvent (without a parent company Commodore UK could not survive, and if there is a material risk of failure then you are deemed to be insolvent). The directors of a company in this condition become personally liable to the creditors for any act that puts the assets of the company at risk. With the inventory of Amiga 1200s dwindling, Mehdi Ali proposed a deal with SCI to build 400,000 units of the computer for Commodore UK, who in turn would pay them directly for the cost of the units plus $50 per machine to cover the old debt. Payment would be made as the inventory sold through. We among UK management had not been involved in the negotiations and had no knowledge of their goings on, and the situation turned out to be a double-edged sword. One day in March, a copy of the contract between SCI and Commodore International arrived in our office. We were stunned and sent it on to our liquidation counsel for advice. A few days later we got a reply. ‘Don’t worry about it,’ they said. ‘Why not?’ we asked. ‘Does it not bind Commodore UK to these actions?’ They told us it didn’t. ‘Commodore UK is not a party to the contract – legally, we don’t have to follow it. Commodore UK’s legal purchase of the Amigas from Commodore Switzerland creates an intercompany liability. How you pay that liability is up to you and Mehdi Ali – just make sure you do not pay more than that debt.’ During the third quarter of 1993, new machines started arriving from Scotland, invoices started arriving from Switzerland and we started remitting cash to SCI. As we knew we were not a party to the SCI contract, we sent Mehdi the money and credited the balance on our intercompany account. Early the following year, we sent more money to SCI – and also more money to Commodore US. By February, we had completely paid off the intercompany debt for the machines we had purchased.

Lew didn't reveal A1200's $50 old debt tax.


From Commodore - The FInal Years,
Quote:

Because there were not enough AGA chips to manufacture the A1200, Ali went to his backup plan of manufacturing A600 systems instead. In early September, SCI-UK began producing A600 computers for the Christmas season. This was an odd move, because Commodore should have been trying to clear out its inventory of A600 systems in anticipation of the A1200 launch. As a result, Ali’s team manufactured too many A600 computers for the market to absorb. “There were some mistakes made with buying a million A600s and then having to write them off,� says Dale Luck. “They just said, ‘Well let’s just make the same ones we did a year ago.’ But nobody wanted them. So they spent millions of dollars making a product nobody wanted, thinking they could make people buy it.�

The final A600 train wreck in Q3 1992.

By December 15 1992, SCI would have produced 70,000 A1200 units.

A1200 has osborned A600.

Last edited by Hammer on 10-Sep-2024 at 05:54 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 10-Sep-2024 at 05:53 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 10-Sep-2024 at 05:41 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 10-Sep-2024 at 05:32 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 10-Sep-2024 at 05:17 AM.

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@cdimauro

Quote:

Again, you continue to live on the land of confusion. In fact, the PCB was NOT part of this (sub)part of the discussion. I was explicitly and ONLY talking about the chipset:

That's a flawed argument when the populated mainboard PCB is required for basic operational Amiga.

Quote:

No, I'm just looking at what YOU've written: you have no clue at all of that the discussion was about, and start talking of completely different things. A quick recap for you, since Nature was a very bad step mother with you: - YOU were talking about the CHIPS of the Amiga chipset; - I've replied talking about the SAME, and showing that CD32 had BIG cost reduction with them; - YOU've started talking about ALL CD32 costs, included the PCB.

Fact: CD32's chips have reduced CGS's involvement which wreaked your in-house CSG argument.

Last edited by Hammer on 10-Sep-2024 at 06:03 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 10-Sep-2024 at 06:02 AM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Nature was a very bad step mother with you, That's you. For the record, you started the personality-based flame war.

Take a look at YOUR, PREVIUS, comments. It's you that you start insulting first when you're not able to counter-argument.
Quote:

Quote: @cdimauro, our problem is that you don't know what Eggbrecht stated. There was NO "what If" with him, because he clearly reported his vision about the DSPs. In fact, here are the FACTs: - there was NO plan to use them on AA+ machines; - AA+ machines were targeted for Commodore's mainstream market AKA low-cost machines. Whereas you pretend to add $20-30+$20=$40-$50 to the BOM of such machines only for integrating your useless DSP; - not even the high-end- machines, based on AAA, were supposed to be equipped with the DSP; - Eggebrecht said that DSP would have been included on FUTURE machines, WHEN the 16-bit audio would have been more common. FUTURE machines which do NOT include neither the AA+ nor the AAA, since it was NOT mentioned the DSP on such interview when he was talking about AA+ and AAA. Wrong narrative. FACTS: 1. From http://www.bambi-amiga.co.uk/amigahistory/leweggebrecht.html Quote: Question: Does that mean that a AA+ machine will have a DSP? Lew: "We can't make that decision right now - it's something we'll have to look at but in that time frame, even in the low end, every machine is likely to have a DSP. It's a cost thing - although the AT&T chip itself is only $20 to $30 or so. AT&T has a number of lower cost options, as well, that are designed more specifically to go on the motherboard. The problem with the present DSP design is that it has one serial channel and everything you attach to it has to be run through at that channel rate. I think th ey're looking at having four independent channels running at different clock rates, and with that kind of enhancement, DSP makes a lot of sense." a. "even in the low end, every machine is likely to have a DSP". b. "It's a cost thing".

Sure. It's a cost thing. and you also missed to report this:
c. "We can't make that decision right now"

and another part of the interview:

"The current capability is four channels of 8-bit samples at 27 KHz and we forsee that most systems in the future will have CD capability. Most of the sound and music will come from this so it was not as important to put that technology in. Our long term strategy is to put the DSP in every system, obviously. That will be sound in and sound out and you can do pretty much whatever you like."

e. "we forsee that most systems in the future will have CD capability"
f. "Our long term strategy is to put the DSP in every system"

LONG TERM.

Bonus: AAA had 8 channels, 16 bit samples, more than CD quality. It doesn't need a DSP...
Quote:

2. A1200 unit sold has $50 old debt tax. From Commodore the Inside Story The Untold Tale of a Computer Giant by David Pleasance Quote: In 1992, a Scottish company called SCI started to build Amiga 1200s for Commodore International. The manufacturing contract was issued out of Commodore Hong Kong, who bought the machines from SCI and sold them to Commodore Electronics Limited (CEL) in Switzerland, who would then sell them on to the various Commodore entities around the world. But by the end of the year, Commodore International was running out of cash and ended up short-paying SCI by $20 million. Early in 1993, Commodore notified the Securities and Exchange Commission that its financial future was at risk and therefore that Commodore UK could be deemed to be trading while insolvent (without a parent company Commodore UK could not survive, and if there is a material risk of failure then you are deemed to be insolvent). The directors of a company in this condition become personally liable to the creditors for any act that puts the assets of the company at risk. With the inventory of Amiga 1200s dwindling, Mehdi Ali proposed a deal with SCI to build 400,000 units of the computer for Commodore UK, who in turn would pay them directly for the cost of the units plus $50 per machine to cover the old debt. Payment would be made as the inventory sold through. We among UK management had not been involved in the negotiations and had no knowledge of their goings on, and the situation turned out to be a double-edged sword. One day in March, a copy of the contract between SCI and Commodore International arrived in our office. We were stunned and sent it on to our liquidation counsel for advice. A few days later we got a reply. ‘Don’t worry about it,’ they said. ‘Why not?’ we asked. ‘Does it not bind Commodore UK to these actions?’ They told us it didn’t. ‘Commodore UK is not a party to the contract – legally, we don’t have to follow it. Commodore UK’s legal purchase of the Amigas from Commodore Switzerland creates an intercompany liability. How you pay that liability is up to you and Mehdi Ali – just make sure you do not pay more than that debt.’ During the third quarter of 1993, new machines started arriving from Scotland, invoices started arriving from Switzerland and we started remitting cash to SCI. As we knew we were not a party to the SCI contract, we sent Mehdi the money and credited the balance on our intercompany account. Early the following year, we sent more money to SCI – and also more money to Commodore US. By February, we had completely paid off the intercompany debt for the machines we had purchased. Lew didn't reveal A1200's $50 old debt tax. From Commodore - The FInal Years, Quote: Because there were not enough AGA chips to manufacture the A1200, Ali went to his backup plan of manufacturing A600 systems instead. In early September, SCI-UK began producing A600 computers for the Christmas season. This was an odd move, because Commodore should have been trying to clear out its inventory of A600 systems in anticipation of the A1200 launch. As a result, Ali’s team manufactured too many A600 computers for the market to absorb. “There were some mistakes made with buying a million A600s and then having to write them off,� says Dale Luck. “They just said, ‘Well let’s just make the same ones we did a year ago.’ But nobody wanted them. So they spent millions of dollars making a product nobody wanted, thinking they could make people buy it.� The final A600 train wreck in Q3 1992. By December 15 1992, SCI would have produced 70,000 A1200 units. A1200 has osborned A600.

Irrelevant...

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Again, you continue to live on the land of confusion. In fact, the PCB was NOT part of this (sub)part of the discussion. I was explicitly and ONLY talking about the chipset: That's a flawed argument when the populated mainboard PCB is required for basic operational Amiga.

Again, Red Herring: the context was ONLY ABOUT THE CHIPSET!

And YOU were talking ONLY ABOUT THE CHIPSET!

I've just (!) replied keeping THE SAME CONTEXT!
Quote:

Quote: No, I'm just looking at what YOU've written: you have no clue at all of that the discussion was about, and start talking of completely different things. A quick recap for you, since Nature was a very bad step mother with you: - YOU were talking about the CHIPS of the Amiga chipset; - I've replied talking about the SAME, and showing that CD32 had BIG cost reduction with them; - YOU've started talking about ALL CD32 costs, included the PCB. Fact: CD32 has reduced CGS's involvement which wreaked your in-house CSG argument.

FACT: YOU CONTINUE TO CHANGE THE CONTEXT!

Take a look at what YOU have written before: it was ALL ABOUT THE CHIPS! And NOT about PCB and other things!

I cite a "friend":

hypocrite!

@cdimauro

Quote:

Take a look at YOUR, PREVIUS, comments. It's you that you start insulting first when you're not able to counter-argument.

Prove it.

Quote:

@cdimauro Sure. It's a cost thing. and you also missed to report this: c. "We can't make that decision right now" .

Hint: Commodore's finance is a trainwreck.

Lew has his "What If" vision.

Quote:

Irrelevant... .

It's relevant.

_________________
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@cdimauro

Quote:

Again, Red Herring: the context was ONLY ABOUT THE CHIPSET! And YOU were talking ONLY ABOUT THE CHIPSET! I've just (!) replied keeping THE SAME CONTEXT!

Again, that is a flawed argument when the populated mainboard PCB is required for cheap operational Amiga.

Quote:

FACT: YOU CONTINUE TO CHANGE THE CONTEXT! Take a look at what YOU have written before: it was ALL ABOUT THE CHIPS! And NOT about PCB and other things!

Fact: CD32's support chips cost reduction has reduced CGS's involvement which wreaked your in-house CSG argument.

AA chipset can operate with the following support chips,
1. Fat Gary, Ramsey, two CIAs, and four PLL bridge chips. The four PLL bridge chips weren't CSG's.

2. Fat Gary, Ramsey, two CIAs and Bridgette chips. Bridgette encapsulates the four PLL bridge chips. Bridgette's fab was out source to Symbios Logic.

3. AA Gayle and Budgie chips, Budgie is outsourced to external fabs e.g. VTI. Budgie encapsulates Bridgette's and Ramsey's services.

4. Akiko chip. Akiko chip is outsourced to external fabs e.g. VTI Akiko encapsulates Budgie, AA Gayle, and two CIA services. This has reduced CSG's involvement.

Your anti-DSP is flawed.

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Hammer Quote:

Your anti-DSP is flawed.

I tend to side with cdimauro. For a similar or not much higher cost compared to a DSP and support hardware, a 68EC030+AA+@28MHz should have been possible much earlier and would have offered more value. Lisa and Alice should have been combined for AGA if it wasn't rushed and likely would have been the combining to a 2 major chip chipset for AA+. I doubt there was a major cost advantage to in-house chip production as it was already becoming commoditized. There likely was a quicker turnaround time for in-house chips which could have accelerated development but CBM lack of development planning lost any advantage. A DSP may have been worthwhile for high end Amigas but even that doesn't make sense without better value chipset enhancements first.

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Take a look at YOUR, PREVIUS, comments. It's you that you start insulting first when you're not able to counter-argument. Prove it.

I've no problem, but first I wait that you prove all the times that I've asked you to prove your statement and for which I'm still waiting.

After that I'll give you satisfaction for your request.
Quote:

Quote: @cdimauro Sure. It's a cost thing. and you also missed to report this: c. "We can't make that decision right now" . Hint: Commodore's finance is a trainwreck.

And... who cares?

BTW, it wasn't at that time (when interviews and presentations were made) that it broke.
Quote:

Lew has his "What If" vision.

No, that wasn't a "What if", rather his plan.

In his position he doesn't need to talk of wishful thinkings: he takes decision.
Quote:

Quote: Irrelevant... . It's relevant.

Then... prove it!

"Possibly" (!) by looking at the context (!!) of this part of the discussion (!!!).

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Again, Red Herring: the context was ONLY ABOUT THE CHIPSET! And YOU were talking ONLY ABOUT THE CHIPSET! I've just (!) replied keeping THE SAME CONTEXT! Again, that is a flawed argument when the populated mainboard PCB is required for cheap operational Amiga.

Again #2: it wasn't MY argument, rather YOUR! YOU have talked ONLY about the chips! NOT ME!!!

I've "just" (!) replied ON THE SAME CONTEXT!!!

AFTER that, YOU have completely changed the context and MOVED IT to the overall costs including the PCB!

Those are the pure FACTS!
Quote:

Quote: FACT: YOU CONTINUE TO CHANGE THE CONTEXT! Take a look at what YOU have written before: it was ALL ABOUT THE CHIPS! And NOT about PCB and other things! Fact: CD32's support chips cost reduction has reduced CGS's involvement which wreaked your in-house CSG argument. AA chipset can operate with the following support chips, 1. Fat Gary, Ramsey, two CIAs, and four PLL bridge chips. The four PLL bridge chips weren't CSG's. 2. Fat Gary, Ramsey, two CIAs and Bridgette chips. Bridgette encapsulates the four PLL bridge chips. Bridgette's fab was out source to Symbios Logic. 3. AA Gayle and Budgie chips, Budgie is outsourced to external fabs e.g. VTI. Budgie encapsulates Bridgette's and Ramsey's services. 4. Akiko chip. Akiko chip is outsourced to external fabs e.g. VTI Akiko encapsulates Budgie, AA Gayle, and two CIA services. This has reduced CSG's involvement.

Those are completely different things!

Who funny cares who and where the chips are fabricated?!? It wasn't LSI because they were incapable (welcome to the "great" Commodore engineers club)? Instead, it was VLSI or HP? That's OK!

We've seen that it Lisa was super expensive compared to Alice and the rest of chips because of this decision, when the A3000+ was designed. However, there was a big cost reduction after that: this new path actually paid very well, and the costs of the chipset for the CD32 is a very clear proof of that.

Which is obviously: Commodore's LSI was totally uncompetitive compared to what offered other fabs: its node processes were super obsolete and very expensive. And you don't have to necessarily go looking for Intel's or IBM's processes.

At the time having a better process every 2 years generated big benefits in terms of chips cost reduction, increased frequencies and/or power consumption.

Commodore wasn't able to keep up and used Stone Age processes compared to other fabs, even when new processes were introduced by its fab. So, it formally gained because of the in-house chips production, but in reality they costed much more because the process was super obsolete (since competition was able to pack WAY MORE transistors in the same area. Or, the same transistors occupied A FRACTION of the area).
Quote:

Your anti-DSP is flawed.

The above and this specific part of the context has nothing to do with the DSP.

Besides that, yes: I'm anti-DSP because it was NOT required.

AAA had already 8 voices at 56kHz and 16-bit samples: it already filled the gap, and doesn't require a DSP.

AA+ was a CHEAP cut down for the low-end market: adding another $40-$50 purely on the productions costs (not the user price!) is a complete non-sense.

Especially taking into account that a backport of AAA's audio subsystem could have been made and it was certainly WAY CHEAPER!

@cdimauro

Only real missed opportunity that COULD be was I believe

a) Making A3000 AGA DSP final and releasing it instead of A4000 030, and before. Leaving A3000 original as only ECS machine ever :D
b) Skipping A500 plus, A2000 ECS and A600 entirely, scrapping ECS and pushing
for earlier A1200 and CD32 sales, that could give CBM needed funds
c) Releasing A4000 040 as A3000 AGA DSP 040 CD Tower as high end machine once a) and b) take foothold. Releasing CD expansion for A1200 to make it match A1200 as well as CD32 expansion to make it computer, making another profitable and viable expansion on both ends and bringing CD as standard
d) Making some next step?

But CBM decided to replace A500 with A500 Plus and A600, believing it needs to keep low end segment while delaying A1200, knowing A1200 would kill ECS sales?

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@vox

Quote:

vox wrote: @cdimauro Only real missed opportunity that COULD be was I believe a) Making A3000 AGA DSP final and releasing it instead of A4000 030, and before. Leaving A3000 original as only ECS machine ever :D

Maybe you missed some comments and my last series of articles: adding the DSP is most stupid decision that Commodore engineers have made.

Instead of studying how the chipset worked and how to add more channels, they wasted tons of time and money on this absurd idea.
Quote:

b) Skipping A500 plus, A2000 ECS and A600 entirely, scrapping ECS and pushing

Those machines could have been very very good, if they would have had a nice evolution of the chipset, instead of the crap that ECS was.
Quote:

for earlier A1200 and CD32 sales, that could give CBM needed funds

Same here: the problem is not the A1200 and CD32, but the crappy chipset that they had at the time, when much more was required to face the competition.
Quote:

[quote]c) Releasing A4000 040 as A3000 AGA DSP 040 CD Tower as high end machine once a) and b) take foothold.

CD is ok. DSP is pure crap, as I've already stated.
Quote:

Releasing CD expansion for A1200 to make it match A1200 as well as CD32 expansion to make it computer, making another profitable and viable expansion on both ends and bringing CD as standard

The main problem here is that A1200 case should have been designed differently since the beginning, with the addition of a tray (to left side, for example) where to add the CD player when it was needed.
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d) Making some next step?

The right evolution of AAA, instead of Hombre, which was a completely new (and totally alien) platform.
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But CBM decided to replace A500 with A500 Plus and A600, believing it needs to keep low end segment while delaying A1200, knowing A1200 would kill ECS sales?

Yes, that's another crappy decision of the management.

Commodore had very "good" people on all areas...

@cdimauro

I don’t see what number of audio channels have to do with a DSP?

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@cdimauro

Surely chipset evolution beyond AGA would be great (mythical AAA now Gunnars SAGA)
but was not possible that quick. So earlier push of AGA could make them live a bit more.

Looking at Falcon DSP plus 030 and faster RAM was quite a success making machine run 040
class software, making good audio use etc.

So at that time, and with no evolved sound chip anywhere near, yes, looks like nice stopgap solution.
Not as good as real Paula update.

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@all
It is not that a DSP would have been bad. It would have boosted performance and added hardware floating point support. The problem is that it is more specialized hardware than the chipset and CPU so it has less use. It adds at least one chip, takes up board space and adds to the cost for hardware that is less used than the chipset and CPU. Chipset enhancements can be applied directly as the Amiga was designed to use the chipset, with no chip increase, no board size increase and negligible production cost increase. Chipset development cost is likely more than increased production cost but is one time up front. There may be a small production cost increase but most of it is likely due to moving to a newer chip process which itself has improvements like better timing/higher clock speeds and more transistors in a smaller area allowing chips to be combined reducing the number of chips/pins, saving board space and reducing power. Chipset enhancements are the cheapest way to "improve the Amiga and keeping it cheap" (from the title of this thread).

CBM upper management knew the Amiga system design and AmigaOS was near perfection but they didn't understand that the design was so good that it could and should be used for generations as compatibility could be maintained. CBM 8-bit hardware was created, minor enhancements and bug fixes were applied and then it was cost reduced until replaced. This was the Amiga treatment as well with OCS and ECS changes being minor and bug fixes. Their biggest incentive to upgrade the 68000 CPU was to use the Amiga hardware for Unix where a MMU was valuable. AAA was a new chipset with only partial Amiga compatibility so practically a new design and less an incremental upgrade like ECS/AGA/AA+. There really wasn't much overall planning as far as chipsets and models which led to overlapping and outdated model problems and external fixes for chipset deficiencies which includes the flicker fixer and DSP.

I primarily blame upper management while cdimauro places much of the blame with engineers. My perspective is that the system engineers are like general practitioner doctors. They could see problems first and addressed them with patched up solutions like a flicker fixer and DSP. They may not understand the big picture though. The chipset engineers are more like surgeons. They can go in and fix even major problems but they need very detailed information of what to fix. We don't have as much info from the chip engineers but the limited info makes it sound like CBM upper management restricted what they could do. A surgeon can have a bigger impact than a general practitioner but they need planning and very specific details on what to do. After the "no new chips" mandate, AGA was rushed and it is not a good idea to rush meticulous surgeons. They tried to save the patient with major changes but it was too little too late.

Last edited by matthey on 13-Sep-2024 at 05:46 AM.

@matthey

For what I have read and seen since CBM demise, my personal conclusion was that
engineers had ideas how to go forward, but were always limited by menagment decisions.

As an example, I liked missed opportunities with ECS (cdmauros analysis) but would not blame
engs for lack of innovation in ECS. Seems managment needed quick and minor update, a drop in replacement, to go along with AmigaOS 2.0 rather then (r)evolution. Similar goes for CBM65, A3000 AGA DSP etc. engs did prototypes, managment did not green light it.

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Future Acube and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionals. Learn it harder way!