@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @cdimauro Quote: It's the same, but you were stuck a bit more ahead of the dead (in every sense) line. If you say so...

It's no me, rather History. You, as an historian, should appreciate all FACTs which I've reported.
Quote:

Quote: Now, being clarified the context, my answer was "just" giving the simplest and most effective solution to the compatibility problem. And shows your deep misunderstanding of the purpose of "NG" solutions: to make 68k compatibility as seamless as possible. Using my favourite (68k) picture viewer with native (OS4) render library and datatypes is of course a great user experience. This is something your solution sorely lacks.

Again, you're talking of something DIFFERENT: that's the INTEGRATION between PowerPC and 68k applications on OS4 (and similar thing with MorphOS).

Whereas I was solely talking about COMPATIBILITY (let's see if everything in capital case finally helps).

Compatibility is the ability to run code for a specific platform. In our case, that's the Amiga platform (as defined by Commodore's guidelines, of course -> 68k + chipset).

Here the BEST solution is represented by (Win)UAE (specifically, the latest WinUAE version), because it can execute code for every hardware and software configuration.

OS4 (and MorphOS) are limited to a good compatibility, but ONLY with OS-friendly applications. Games are unsupported (because usually they were hitting the metal), and require... rolling drum... UAE.

Now, about the integration: yes, OS4 (and MorphOS) offers the best experience by integrating the new applications (PowerPC) with old ones (68k. Only OS-friendly, as I've stated).

Nothing to say about that, beside that's exactly the reason why those two OSes are doomed to remain toy OSes and cannot be modernized: it's the price to pay and that you can never get rid of.

But, again, that's DIFFERENT from the COMPATIBILITY which I was talking about.

Clear now? Because I don't know how else can explain you.

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @cdimauro I’m just an outsider looking in, I do not have full details. but random crashes as explained was issue on a number of AmiWest shows over the years, can easily be contributed to L1 cache.

No, the problem is not about L1 cache. It could be a bug on the L1 cache implementation of some processors, but that's a different thing.
Quote:

They should have, could have done something about it much earlier on, then it be less of problem now. For example, AmigaOS is full of macros, perhaps some of this should have been considered obsolete.

It's too late now. The problem started with the version 1.0 of the OS, and it's automatically borrowed by all other versions, included ports / reimplementations.
Quote:

AmigaOS4 being a too much of blue copy of AmigaOS3.x inherited its weaknesses.

It's inherited because OS4 isn't a new OS, rather a PORT of the OS 3.x.
Quote:

But If that’s the case, then anyone arguing about going back 68K is a fool, considering you lose all compatibility,

With what? 68k has the BEST compatibility ever.

That's why it's better to go back to it, instead of continuing to beat a cadaver.
Quote:

if SMP was introduced to 68K as well.

It's the 68k the problem here, rather the OS. There cannot be SMP for any Amiga OS or reimplementation.
Quote:

The only way forward, is getting everyone to use a smp friendly API’s, that be really problematic for larger library of compiled Aminet software. No matter if the CPU is 680x0 or PowerPC.

Exactly, but it's too late now, as I've stated.

Just make the old software run on a sandbox/UAE and think about something new.

@NutsAboutAmiga

in my view it was a basic mistake to stick to OS3 concepts. There should have been a clean break with NG to become competitive. That means full security (MP), SMP and 64bit support. Also APIs should have been modernized. That would have made direct 68k integration impossible and meant to use emulation for 68k.

Today the gap between modern platforms and the amiga platforms is huge, not only OS but also driver support and software.

I see no chance.

The idea of Deadwood to integrate Aros in Linux using Linux as OS base and add look & feel of amiga on top of it (including porting some software, special theme behavior and amiga desktop) seems to be the only realistic concept currently. Modernizing NG makes not much sense to me because it would mean breaking the software. Then you have a modern OS with no software.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 22-Sep-2024 at 10:59 AM.

@cdimauro

Quote:

It could be a bug on the L1 cache implementation of some processors

thats not what we are talking about, see link below.

https://www.reddit.com/r/embedded/comments/138k583/smp_and_software_cache_coherency/

Every OS has some shard data, modern OS built from ground up with this in mind.

In case of AmigaOS, back in 1978, 68000 CPU’s did not have L1 cache, there was no issue. There only direct accesses to memory, and whatever was temporarily in registers.
technically registers are not atomic, because duplicates for etch core. Perhaps AmigaOS was always broken in that sense, anything in register has to be written back to memory, to ensure concurrency.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-Sep-2024 at 01:29 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 22-Sep-2024 at 01:28 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @cdimauro Quote: It could be a bug on the L1 cache implementation of some processors thats not what we are talking about, see link below. https://www.reddit.com/r/embedded/comments/138k583/smp_and_software_cache_coherency/ Every OS has some shard data, modern OS built from ground up with this in mind. In case of AmigaOS, back in 1978, 68000 CPU’s did not have L1 cache, there was no issue. There only direct accesses to memory, and whatever was temporarily in registers. technically registers are not atomic, because duplicates for etch core. Perhaps AmigaOS was always broken in that sense, anything in register has to be written back to memory, to ensure concurrency.

Those are usual problems of memory contention where you need either an hardware snooping, or... memory barriers (atomic operations, memory synchronization instructions, hardware transaction).

So, developers should know how the processor is working, and using the proper instructions or OS APIs to handle those cases.

OS3/4 is different, because it has published most of the internal structures, and without proper mechanism for accessing them.

As I've said, the problem started with 1.0 version of the OS, and you can do really nothing here to fix the problem, because the existing applications don't use new APIs which can be added.

There's no hope to change the situation, and that's something which technical guys should know it since very long time.

Put a big stone in the graveyard for it, and then start designing a new OS and new applications.

@OlafS25

Such linux/aros blend exist and is named AEROS

- debian linux kernel and driver model
- linux modern apps
- integrated aros x86 and aros best apps
- integrated linux uae for amiga compatibility
- dual boot on any pc via linux boot grub

Nowadays reactos linux port could be added, as presented

Aeros
https://archiveos.org/aeros/
https://archive.org/details/AEROS

That should be CommodoreOS /AmigaOS 5 with added amiga ports

Cheap and usable

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@vox

Aeros was linux hosted. And commercial. Not my interest. Axruntime is potential more interesting

@OlafS25

Axruntime is Linux hosted

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Close, but not quite. AxRuntime executables are native Linux executables. AxRuntime can of course execute AROS executables as well. Two differences that I would point out (compared to AROS Linux hosted):

a) AxRuntime programs have their windows integrated into host system (window order, AxRuntime program window can be on top of linux window)
b) AxRuntime has SMP enabled so programs can use multiple cores.

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aeros is useless still no working mui clone
amiga solution on x86 or arm should be just amiga gui and graphics on top of unix
no exec dos devices etc
first aros zune should be made compatible with mui then just gui and graphics poretd to unix
just amiga gui and graphics nothing more
it should be done by all this trolls that waste time on holy war against ppc
szulc, szonwejs, karlos, mattay, cesare di mauro
hard work is only way forward not trolling

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: aeros is useless still no working mui clone amiga solution on x86 or arm should be just amiga gui and graphics on top of unix no exec dos devices etc first aros zune should be made compatible with mui then just gui and graphics poretd to unix just amiga gui and graphics nothing more it should be done by all this trolls that waste time on holy war against ppc szulc, szonwejs, karlos, mattay, cesare di mauro hard work is only way forward not trolling

PARROT MODE ON. Then:

I reveal you another secret: YOU are the only one here which put it as The goal to have.

I reveal you also another secret: AROS is open source, so anyone can get the source and contribute.

Now, I reveal you elementary logic: since YOU are the only one interested on the above, then YOU can pick AROS' sources and add what YOU like.


Besides that, I've to decline, because I



am already busy:





Would you like to join me and help me bury the PowerPCs?


BTW, are you mentally insane? You continue to wrongly write the names of many people. Or it was "simply" (!) the nature which was a very bad step mother with you?

@ppcamiga1

yes stop trolling

do something

@ppcamiga1

Yes! Exactly!

Stop trolling and start working hard on MUI for AROS x86. As a professional developer you will get it done in no time. Me, as professional developer with experience on project management, can give you the orders.

@ppcamiga1

You keep writing without knowing, try my AROS One distribution and you will notice that many of the "native MUI" programs run on AROS x86 with ZUNE, and if you are not aware, even on OS3 almost all MUI programs also run via "Zune"

Yes you read correctly on OS3 (AfA OS) you can run MUI applications via Zune, AfA OS is nothing but AROS x Amiga.

You talk about Linux as if it were a great OS, a system that nobody likes, for 30 years only 2% of users prefer it, others trash it after trying it !

Last edited by AMIGASYSTEM on 22-Sep-2024 at 08:17 PM.
Last edited by AMIGASYSTEM on 22-Sep-2024 at 08:17 PM.

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Quote:

michalsc wrote: @ppcamiga1 Stop trolling and start working hard on MUI for AROS x86.

Maybe he should just rename Zune ...

@OneTimer1

szulc may call it as want
szulc just should stop trolling and start working on mui clone on aros

@AMIGASYSTEM

ppcamiga1 certainly seems to have a fair few odd ideas including about MUI; good to know zune handles MUI programs so well though.

I think Linux & AROS share something ... a fair few folks gave both of them a try years back when they were pretty poor, they're both much improved but some have been put off already, me included until last year re Linux. I'm now a happy Linux Mint user (got persuaded by a friend to give it another chance), it's very simple to use/update, nothing like Linux used to be. If Amigans haven't tried AROS for yonks & they gave it a go nowadays I bet a fair few would stick with it now.

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@OlafS25

I believe both ideas have their own merits:
AEROS shows that AROS can be well hosted, and from user POV integrated in Linux in its current shape
ScalOS for Linux as another GUI shows potential for porting AROS and AmigaOS apps to Linux with almost original GUI, or modifying existing Linux apps to have Amiga look.

Both give potential for quickest route to future of modified Linux for Amigans needs.

@ppcamiga

My understanding is that Zune needs no fixing since its not a MUI clone and AROS apps use it.
However full MU4 (now also called MUI5) port to AROS would be mostz welclomed.

Since MUI5 exists as free code for OS3 as well, I hope some OS3 to AROS porting is possible.

Some people dont care about MUI, but both Reaction (ClassAct) and MUI are Amiga GUI UIs built to extend WB low functionalities and customizations (as well as ScalOS and MagicWB).
MUI is used by many little but also quite important apps and I like its look, customization and exapandability via class system.

MorphOS Ambient is MUI standardized and is miles ahead of Classic WB.

MOS could also be backported to m68k if we could have ASIC of G3 power level,
060 or 080 at least 1Ghz.

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@ppcamiga1

yes indeed

STOP TROLLING, DO SOMETHING

@vox

you are wrong

MUI5, if you mean the downloadable version, is kind of freeware but not open source. MorphOS team see MUI as core part of the OS and do not want sources to be open

Stefan Stuntz was, as I read it, more open but others from the team not

but nevertheless, full compatible port of MUI would make cross-platform development in the amiga world easier, but it is not really important in my view. There are not many competitive programs left, who are in development and worth to be ported.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 23-Sep-2024 at 08:06 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 23-Sep-2024 at 08:05 AM.