@Rogue

Quote:

The reason it isn't released yet is mostly a crash when flushing the library

Likely reason:

- memory trash

How to track those down:

- have mungwall support built into the OS

- if memory pools are not affected by mungwall, temporarily hack exec/AllocPooled() and exec/FreePooled() to call AllocMem()/FreeMem() instead.

- Have a function which allows to check any actually existing allocation (mungwall should keep a list of them) for trashes at any point in time. The function should be easily accessable. Here it's hacked into AvailMem(MEMF_CLEAR).

- Add calls to this function all over the place in the relevant (Warp3D) sources. With some debug output (kprintf("-- 1"), kprintf("-- 2")) which later if a memory trash is reported shows you before/after which place in your code it happened.

- Sometimes if multiple tasks might be involved it's useful to call the function also in the task switching code. This way it's possible to find out under which active/running task a memory trash happens.

- Sometimes it's useful to enclose code you are "examining" with Forbid()/Permit() to avoid task switches. Not forgetting of course that Wait() breaks Forbid-state.

- Make sure to not have bugs in your debugging/mungwall code itself (sigh!) ...

- Further tricks, but those would require an hosted version of the OS which you can run in gdb (watchpoints).

@Georg

Thanks, but I really don't need lessons in debugging

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@Rogue

Debugging is the most tedious part isn't it?

It seems you have had you fair share of it.

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Trust me. I'm a doctor.

@Rogue

Quote:

No. Intuition and P96 are separate things, and don't have anything in common. Intuition is native since quite some time, but P96 only turned PPC recently.

I know this is kinda silly, but are there any plans to rename Picasso96 to something more meaningful or modern? I mean, it is 2004 already. Maybe PicassoGFX or Picasso'04?

@Herewegoagain

Or even simpler, AmigaD2D. :)

Funny, I was just thinking about the naming of amiga os components when I saw you post.

Sometimes I can't help but feel that to an outsider/non-amigan the whole amigaos still sounds like its kludged together due to the lack of a consistent naming system.

eg Picasso96, Warp3D, AHI, Roadshow etc...

How about renaming things before the final release?

say,

AmigaInput
AmigaDisplay2D
AmigaDisplay3D (or combine the last two into AmigaVideo)
AmigaAudio
AmigaNetwork
AmigaUSB

or,

AmiInput
AmiVideo
AmiAudio
AmiNetwork
AmiUSB

Assuming the individual authors wouldn't mind of course.

CnlPepper - Brought to you by the letter P...

@CnlPepper

I agree! the amiga's individual components have had a very checkered history, but I agree that to an outsider the whole thing sounds like a mess. Hyperion should definitely have a friendly discussion with all the contributors involved, and try to convince them to rename their components (no redesigns, transfer of ownership or anything - just a simple rename). It's not a big thing, but I think this is going to be one of those little things that count for a lot.

@Herewegoagain
I was also thought the 96 was refering to the (theoretical) color width supported by OS3.1 (32Bit per gun, shame that you would still only to be able to use 256 of them at a time with the GFX-functions).

I would rather suggest a clean intregration, so that P96/CGX would just be a legacy-API for a really powerfull GFX-library.

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- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

A few more questions for hyperion people :

is the USB support for version 2.0 ?

what about the scsi.device ?

I am running the prerelease on my radeon 7500 but I also have a voodoo3-3000. which one should I use (=is the best ATM) ?

Are 68k (=classic) applications supposed to work on the pre release ? If so then there is a kind of an emulator included (not petunia), right ?

Well done Hyperion, my aone is booting very fast now (less than 30sec) and I am trying to set my broadband but I did not see roadshow is internet drawer.

Regards
Lio

@Rogue and MagicSN

Thanks for the update and for your hard work.

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AmigaOS, the last hope...

I totally and definitely agree with CnlPepper and CodeSmith.

Having a common subsystems naming would give the whole OS an even more professional feeling IMHO, otherwise it would be ok for Amigans or ex-Amigans only but sound "hackerish" at best to others...

@Kronos

Quote:

I was also thought the 96 was refering to the (theoretical) color width supported by OS3.1 (32Bit per gun, shame that you would still only to be able to use 256 of them at a time with the GFX-functions).

That may well have been the reasoning for the naming structure, I just don't remember. I think most people would associate it with a date code (like Windows95, Windows98, etc).

Quote:

I would rather suggest a clean intregration, so that P96/CGX would just be a legacy-API for a really powerfull GFX-library.

I thought that was the planned goal. When the SNAP system is introduced, we will us it as opposed to the P96 stuff, I thought. Now I'm going to have to go back and read again.

@CodeSmith

Quote:

CodeSmith wrote: @CnlPepper I agree! the amiga's individual components have had a very checkered history, but I agree that to an outsider the whole thing sounds like a mess. Hyperion should definitely have a friendly discussion with all the contributors involved, and try to convince them to rename their components (no redesigns, transfer of ownership or anything - just a simple rename). It's not a big thing, but I think this is going to be one of those little things that count for a lot.

This would be in line with the way other systems do it. Every time MS or Apple come out with a new OS version, it always has some weird sounding codename, like Pink Flamingo or something, and then when it is actually released, they change the name to something boring and corporate, like Beige Box 3.0.

We could do the same, and just declare that the current eclectic batch of names are the prerelease names, and change them all to Amiga.foo in the final release. Why not? It's what everyone else does anyway.

--Stuart Anderson

Really good news!

Thanks for the detailed update. And thanks to all involved for their hard work.

@GadgetMaster

Quote:

Debugging is the most tedious part isn't it?

What! I thought they just got it all right the first time!

@Herewegoagain
Quote:

Herewegoagain wrote: I thought that was the planned goal. When the SNAP system is introduced, we will us it as opposed to the P96 stuff, I thought. Now I'm going to have to go back and read again.

Nope, SNAP is not suitable as an high-level API. It's gonna be just one P96-driver addressing more than one card (similar to UAEGFX). Maybe stuff like W3D will directly access it, but again no way you wanna have normal apps hitting it directly.

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- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

@CnlPepper

Quote:

eg Picasso96, Warp3D, AHI, Roadshow etc...

Most of the names are irrelevant. I don't think Roadshow is referenced as Roadshow in the OS (the components are called things like "Internet" or "Network" as far as I've seen), so you wouldn't know it was called this unless you knew it was, and it doesn't need a name anyway (just "native TCP/IP" would do). None of the OS components need "brand names". USB support is just "USB", the 68k JIT emulator is just "68k application support" and so on...

For your other examples they also (should) have no references within the OS: P96 (really all the P96 stuff should be integrated straight into graphics.library), Warp3D (the only reference to this is the library name, which could be changed to graphics3d.library I guess, although this would break compatibility with 68k stuff). AHI has the same problem as Warp3D, although the prefs program could be renamed easily (integrating it with "Sound" would be good here). The underlying libraries don't really need name changes: the average Windows user wouldn't know what they are, or where they are, and wouldn't need to know this anyway. If you want to rename ahi.device, then perhaps we should rename asl.library while we are there? There's no need. If a library is missing, then you just need the name of it.

If OS4 applications only ever refer to library and device names rather than things that were previously third party packages, there is no confusion for anyone. The only things that might need renaming are what the user ordinarily sees - eg. AHI prefs (it isn't at all obvious what this is for). All these sorts of applications should have incredibly obvious names, like "Text Editor", "Video Player" or whatever, and for the most part OS4 is ok in this respect.

Chris

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@Rogue

Ok, P96 and Intuituion is ready and SNAP is on the way. So what i the "Native graphics system" then?


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And about the naming. A common naming might be good but calling everything "Amiga" sounds childish and stupid IMO. Ok, M$ calls all programs "MS Whatever" but that's a bit different because that's only the programs, not subsystems like f.ex. DirectX or the audio-subsystem (if it even has a name).

I think it would be better to keep these names (except perhaps Picasso96 as it, in my ears atleast, sounds as it was made in '96 which is a bit old..), and simply not advertise them other than to Amigans. Just state that it has a good TCP/IP stack, a 2D-system, a 3D-system, USB-support, etc. instead of saying it has Roadshow, SNAP, NOVA and Poseidon(or whatever). AmigaTCP/IP, Amiga2D, Amiga3D, AmigaUSB etc. doesn't really cut it I think....

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- Don't get fooled by my avatar, I'm not like that (anymore, mostly... maybe only sometimes)
> Amiga Classic and OS4 developer for OnyxSoft.

@Deniil715

DirectX is the name for all the APIs as a group. Individually, the APIs are called DirectDraw, Direct3D, DirectSound, etc. So MS does do that even for subsystems.

Giving things consistent names is important from a perception/marketing point of view, the same as it being important that they have a consistent UI. It takes the whole thing from looking like a set of disconnected patches (which is what it used to be) to looking like a consistent, integrated, professional whole (which is what it is now).

Bad marketing killed the amiga once before, let's not let it happen again. This is one important part of the marketing effort, that won't cost mega-$$$.

@CodeSmith
Quote:

DirectX is the name for all the APIs as a group. Individually, the APIs are called DirectDraw, Direct3D, DirectSound, etc.

Which always struck me as a stupid name, because they are not direct at all, they are abstraction layers. (I suppose Abstract3D, AbstractSound etc. does sound kind of silly though....)

--Eric

@Rogue and MagicSN:

Hans-Joerg and Steffan, thanks for a detailed reply. It sounds like the OS4 team is making great headway.
How is the scsi.driver doing? I would love to test drive a beta on my hardware. ... of course the final will be ready

Continued congratulations on your progress. Regards,
JCC