@ihatewestlife2002

When I think of hills I mean the 1 in 4 hills where I live. These hills are steeper than the Alp Duez route (but 30 times shorter). On a mountain bike I can manage it in 9th gear (38t x 28t) ending up at 4 MPH. I don't think a racing bike with skinny wheels would make much of a difference. Ten years ago a national race went up that way. The Pro's got up at about 8 MPH without even breaking into a sweat! They had to stand up though! The mechanics knew what they were doing because they all put rear cassettes at the back starting at 20 teeth which is huge when racing bikes are concerned.

Your average car can just about manage this hill in 2nd gear at 38 MPH. I doubt an electric one could.

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@Intuitioned

I see what ya mean!

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@Intuitioned

Quote:

Intuitioned wrote: Electric transportation is all very well but largely the electricity comes from power stations burning fossil fuels, or even nuclear, so where is the advantage.

To create fossil fuels for vehicles oil, gas, diesel, you need to refine the extracted material. So, you have refine fuel to make electric to make gas to ship to your car. Or you have refine fuel to make electric then ship electric to your car. There's lots of little steps such as transportation and their costs and pollution. I've not seen a full analysis of all points in a system as of yet. It'd be interesting to see.


@thread

In the US the electric cars don't always save. For example looking at pollution -- Toyota Prius and the Ford Focus PZEV both emit a small number of emmisions and are ranked in the Partial Zero Emissions Group. The Ford Focus will cost you more in fuel - 30MPG compared to the 42MPG Prius. But, hybrid technology comes at a cost - $3K-$5K extra to do hybrid.

Prius - $20K, Focus $15K.
Difference is $5K @ $2.50/gallon = 2,000 gallons more fuel for the Ford. Average car use, as seen by industry, is 1,200 miles per month. Focus @ 30MPG would use 40 gallons , Prius @ 42MPG would use 28 gallons. Ford uses 12 gallons more per month. Now we have 2000 more gallons in the Focus for the break even point in cost. 2000 gallons / 12 gallons used more per month = 166 months to break even in costs. 166/12 = almost 14 years.

Plus, you haven't considered... Batteries create pollution in their manufacturing, charging, and waste and they will need to be replaced. Prius is more complicated since it has both gas and and electric systems. Cars are taxed in value so you have to pay more taxes on the Prius. You need $5K more in a loan so extra costs for interest. There's, currently, a tax credit for the Prius which will help offset the forementioned items. However, US tax credits decrease in each year and are phased out to zero by 2007, unless law makers change the code before then.

Thus, looking at pollution savings and dollar savings hybrid's don't always win. It does win if your only concern is using less gas in your vehicle in this case.


Another future fuel against hybrids -- diesel. It's cleaner then gas in some aspects but much worse sulfur. By 2006 the US is supposed to be running diesel that's has a 97% reduction in sulfur. Diesels mileage is around the hybrid area. Diesel prices vary but, at least in MN, diesel fuel can be had for less cost then gasoline.


Don't me wrong I'm all for using less fuel and doing what we can to reduce pollution. However, hybrids are more costly, which in turn isn't necessarily offset by fuel cost savings. Also, it seems the added complexity of a 2nd system and the pollution in making and discarding batteries seem to never to be included in the press.

@BrianK

I think Hydrogen fuel cells are the future.

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@Intuitioned

Depands on the given Torque.

@BrianK

What about combining diesel and electric i.e. replace UL petrol engine with a diesel engine? Anyway, there are some concerns in regards cancer and post-diesel particles (not big issue with bio-diesel).

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@Hammer

Quote:

What about combining diesel and electric i.e. replace UL petrol engine with a diesel engine? Anyway, there are some concerns in regards cancer and post-diesel particles (not big issue with bio-diesel).

Diesel has an approximate gain of 30% in mileage over gasoline. Making a car a hybrid adds only about 10% gain. Thus, if you combined these you'd see a 40MPG diesel go to 44MPG -- probably not enough gain to offset the additional cost of adding the hybrid system.

I'm sure my 10% number will cause some user to ask how does the Prius get seemingly more then that. The reason is the change in engine technology. Most vehicles use an Otto cycle engine for their power plant. The hybrid engines are Atkinson engines. The Atkinson engine is more efficent then the Otto cycle. However, the trade-off for gained efficency is loss of power. Adding electric to the Atkinson gains a bit more efficency and offsets the power loss making an adequate vehicle for the road. Thus, looking at hybrid you are not only seeing efficency gains by adding electric but additional gains are seen from changing the engine to an Atikinson cycle.

Reva in India is set to market their electric car that costs 0.85 US cents per km on the road.
BBC News- India launches its first electric car . . .
The power pack of eight lead acid batteries can run for up to 40,000km (25,000 miles) and has to be recharged every 80km (50 miles). The car has a top speed of 65kmph (40 mph) and is easy to drive as it has no gears.

It costs just under 250,000 rupees (around $5,300) - a quarter of the price of electric cars produced in Japan.

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A2000HD (from 1991) 060 64Mb PicassoII with OS3.5 . . . still working.

@BrianK

Hunh?

According to the EPA, the best model for the Ford Focus gets something more like 28-36mpg; while the worst gets 21-28mpg. The Toyota Prius gets 51-60mpg, much, much higher than 42mpg. So the difference ought to be 25-30mpg, which makes that 2000miles manageable in about 6-8 years, which is a much fairer assessment than the one you gave, especially since many people these days keep their cars for longer than that: mine is 9 years old next month, and running strong.

Maybe you're confusing the Prius with the Civic hatchback?

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@BrianK

Ah, I see. According to a number of websites, the EPA's tests are not very accurate, and drivers should expect only 75% of the actual mileage estimates. Some claim the hybrids routinely get only 60%, with one putting it in the 30s even.

I don't know about that. My 1996 Saturn SL still gets 42-45mpg on the highway, and it has once gotten 47 or 48. But the EPA only rated it at 40mpg.

Here's one website that documents an owner's experience with the Prius. And here's another. Their experiences are closer to the actual EPA rating.

In any case, if you revise the Prius down, you'd better revise the Focus down, too.

Regardless, I'm keeping my Saturn a while longer.

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@simplex

I'm glad you found that the EPA numbers weren't exact they are only estimates. Luckily I know a Prius driver and a Focus driver so took the #'s they provided me about their vehicles. Now given these are 2 different drivers and 2 different paths driven but I was trying to at least get something a bit closer to actual.


Here's a few other points for any reader that wants to run this exercise to consider.
1) What is fuel value over the period? Is $2.50 average a good number? Or will Bush get to drill Alaska and will fuel fall below the $1.73, I'm seeing in MN for cost?

2) Don't forget hybrids get worst mileage on the highway where Focus gets it's best and vice versa. So, maybe you want to do a worst case with the EPA #'s.

3) I used $5K as the 'sticker' difference. Toyota doesn't budge on their sticker price the Prius has a waiting list. Ford, of course, will negotiate. So, you might see a few hundred to a 1-2 thousand less which you could add to fuel.

4) The difference will cost you more in taxes and more in interest include that in for more gas.

5) Battery pack will need replacing... It seems about $500-$1000 for a used battery pack -- who know how long the junk yard battery will run? It's about $5K-$6K for a new battery pack.

Once again this is an estimate your actual my vary.. In addition, any further exercises are left for the readers

@Intuitioned

Quote:

Intuitioned wrote: @BrianK I think Hydrogen fuel cells are the future.

Yes - as soon as they're fully developed.

But until then:
We at Ford developed the hydrogen internal combustion engine (ICE) as an interim solution to generate already today an demand for hydrogen fuel and to build up an supply net.

We presented this technique to German Federal Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder on 13th of July 2004 and are currently testing it in a Ford Focus C-Max Prototype:

http://www.ford.com/en/innovation/engineFuelTechnology/hydrogenInternalCombustion.htm

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Dandy
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If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@ihatewestlife2002

I managed to get to 43mph (admittedly down a very steep hill around the Chilterns) on my racer when I did the London to Birmingham cycle ride last year. Would say it is accurate as the ride is 130 miles and my odometer read 129.4 at the end.

Got to admit though, scared the pants off me.

@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote: @Intuitioned Quote: Intuitioned wrote: @BrianK I think Hydrogen fuel cells are the future. Yes - as soon as they're fully developed.

But until then:
We at Ford developed the hydrogen internal combustion engine (ICE) as an interim solution to generate already today an demand for hydrogen fuel and to build up an supply net.

We presented this technique to German Federal Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder on 13th of July 2004 and are currently testing it in a Ford Focus C-Max Prototype:

http://www.ford.com/en/innovation/engineFuelTechnology/hydrogenInternalCombustion.htm[/quote]


Mmmm, Mercedes demonstrated a bus runing on Hydrogen about 2 years ago. I think you'll find that most leading engine manufacturers have experimented with Hydrogen, and all have their designs.

Furthermore, the real issue behind Hydrogen fuel isn't engine design at all. The problem actually is one of being able to commercially generate the hydrogen in the first place. Unfortunately, it takes energy to generate hydrogen, and in most circumstances, it's not an environmentally clean process. It's only been relatively recently that someone (can't remember who) developed a new mechanism involving a catalist to make hydrogen generation more feasible.

What I'm curious about is what happened to Fords test 2-stroke engine. Was touted as having incredible torque and an ability of achieving beyond 80mpg in town driving if memory serves me correctly. Saw a demo about 2 years ago, but heard nothing since.

Quote:

Jules_s wrote: Mmmm, Mercedes demonstrated a bus runing on Hydrogen about 2 years ago.

That's right.
But this bus used fuel cells...
I've had the chance to drive Ford's fuel-cell-Mondeo Prototype in Aachen (Germany) three years ago.
Quote:

Jules_s wrote: I think you'll find that most leading engine manufacturers have experimented with Hydrogen, and all have their designs.

Well, I'm not one of the most leading engine manufacturers, but I've experinmented with hydrogene and combustion engines back in 1975.

I used an model engine (Cox PeeWee, 0.33 ccm) to proove myself that it workes, although everybody else told me it would not.
And guess what?
It worked with that mixture of hydrogene and oxygene - and afterwards it worked with its normal fuel as before...

Quote:

Jules_s wrote: Furthermore, the real issue behind Hydrogen fuel isn't engine design at all. The problem actually is one of being able to commercially generate the hydrogen in the first place.

Completely right.
That's why I wrote:
"...to generate already today an demand for hydrogen fuel and to build up an supply net."
Quote:

Jules_s wrote: Unfortunately, it takes energy to generate hydrogen, and in most circumstances, it's not an environmentally clean process.

If you use photovoltaics to generate the necessary energy (for free by the way, once you have the solar modules) the process should be almost clean...
Quote:

Jules_s wrote: It's only been relatively recently that someone (can't remember who) developed a new mechanism involving a catalist to make hydrogen generation more feasible.

I think I saw it on the news as well.
IIRC they used a catalyst to make hydrogene from petrol.
I would reject this way of producing hydrogene, as only hydrogene is produced and not the necessary amount of oxygene as well.
If we (exclusively) used hydrogene produced this way, it would slowly but surly eat up all the oxygene of our atmosphere.
Quote:

Jules_s wrote: What I'm curious about is what happened to Fords test 2-stroke engine. Was touted as having incredible torque and an ability of achieving beyond 80mpg in town driving if memory serves me correctly. Saw a demo about 2 years ago, but heard nothing since.

To be honest - I haven't heard of it yet.
Was it a hydrogene driven one?
(the model engine I used for my experiment was 2-stroke)

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@BrianK

Quote:

In the US the electric cars don't always save. For example looking at pollution -- Toyota Prius and the Ford Focus PZEV both emit a small number of emmisions and are ranked in the Partial Zero Emissions Group. The Ford Focus will cost you more in fuel - 30MPG compared to the 42MPG Prius. But, hybrid technology comes at a cost - $3K-$5K extra to do hybrid. Prius - $20K, Focus $15K.

Eww! A Ford? Okay, let's compare an actual quality car to the Prius intead. If you're looking at that class of car and wanting something good, you're looking at a Toyota Corolla, or Honda Civic (which also has a hybrid). So, oh well, you're still looking at almost a 5k price difference too, if you get a bare, non-loaded Civic or Corolla.

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@LordSteven

Quote:

LordSteven wrote: Eww! A Ford? Okay, let's compare an actual quality car to the Prius intead. If you're looking at that class of car and wanting something good, ...

Hmmmmmmmm - should you be implying that Ford Focus is not a "quality car", but japanese cars are?

Well - I don't know about the quality of Ford cars compared to japanese cars in the U.S., but here in Europe japanese cars always had a bad reputation (although they're catching up today)...
Their only advantage was that they were cheaper to buy, but that does not necessarily mean they are of better quality.

But as soon as it comes to spare parts this advantage fades away.
I once had an old Datsun Sunny (120 Y) where the new clutch did cost more than for a brandnew BMW 320i!

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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@vortexau

Not that I'd want to drive around in something like that with -30c, snow and ice :)

/Björn

@LordSteven

Quote:

LordSteven wrote: @BrianK Quote: In the US the electric cars don't always save. For example looking at pollution -- Toyota Prius and the Ford Focus PZEV both emit a small number of emmisions and are ranked in the Partial Zero Emissions Group. The Ford Focus will cost you more in fuel - 30MPG compared to the 42MPG Prius. But, hybrid technology comes at a cost - $3K-$5K extra to do hybrid. Prius - $20K, Focus $15K. Eww! A Ford? Okay, let's compare an actual quality car to the Prius intead. If you're looking at that class of car and wanting something good, you're looking at a Toyota Corolla, or Honda Civic (which also has a hybrid). So, oh well, you're still looking at almost a 5k price difference too, if you get a bare, non-loaded Civic or Corolla.

Ford Focus -- Past awards....See http://media.ford.com/products/press_article_display.cfm?article_id=3885&vehicle_id=1056&make_id=92 there's 38 awards listed. Edmund's 2005 Editor's Most Wanted list for 4 out of the last 5 years... Consumer reports 2004 - Best Small Car. Quality? I think the awards abound compared to your comment.

I heard an interesting report on the radio about the preception of quality and the auto industry. The most frequent ranking of quality is by owner opinion surveyThis company did a survey of service shops and found Honda to be as busy if not busier then comparable GM and Ford service shops. After looking more indepth at service records they could find nothing to statistically indicate that Honda was better then GM and Ford was slightly ahead but no clear winner emerged.

I'm sure you have examples of person X's car that had problems. I won't even get into the horror stories of my 'quality' Toyota Avalon. In this person's case the same age Ford with 30% more miles has been in the shop less, cost me less in service $$, and been less of a headache then the Avalon.

In the next thousand years the ice could all melt at the poles and we would lose many of our beautiful animals such as the penguin! If we lost the penguin there would be no Linux (because the logo would mean nothing) or humans because of the heat!

There would be a thunderstorm every day and all those stupid women that take their bloody kids to school in a 4x4 won't now because their vehicles have melted!

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The biggest problem facing hydrogen as a fuel is simply the cost of the fuel cells themselves, and the capacity of the cells.

The most effient design for dual powered vehicle is one where the engine is set to run at its most efficient rpm.The engine powers a generator which charges the battery.The advantage of a cumbustion/electric engine is that an alcahol engine is a simple conversion.You could even replace or convert current petroleum engines to alcahol, which is very clean.

As for the "more components" argument, it is a non issue really.Cars already have the engine and a generator, and electric motors require an extremely small amount of maitenance. New brushes every now and then and maybe lubricated bearings.

Electric motors are far more efficient than combustion, they do not require tuning, water cooling, air filters, fuel filters, fuel injection/carburettors, distributors, engine oil, spark plugs and so on.This is one of the major factors behind not adopting electic engines as 1) most profit made on a car is servicing/tuning it 2) thousands of mechanics would be out of work as thier services for tuning/sevicing a car would no longer be required.All this makes electric motors far more reliable as well and completely eliminates the problems with cold temperatures.

Also, while lead acid batteries give off gas, it is gas which is not harmful to the evnironment, and a significant amount of the battery can be recycled.With the rise in popularity in electric driven cars I believe you would see a corresponding rise in battery research resulting in cheap more efficient lighter batteries with larger capacity and reuse capability in a reasonable time.

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