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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Question for hyperion regarding Nova
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peggus 
Question for hyperion regarding Nova
Posted on 29-Jul-2003 18:09:00
#1 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Jul-2003
Posts: 159
From: Pasadena

Considering the recent release of the OpenGl 1.5 and to a lesser extent the 2.0 specifications/suggestions. I wonder how compatible Nova will be with these upcoming standards?

-Peter

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turkamigaman 
Re: Question for hyperion regarding Nova
Posted on 29-Jul-2003 19:51:18
#2 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-May-2003
Posts: 707
From: Izmir Turkiye

Yes Who knows and explain what is going there?

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Rogue 
Re: Question for hyperion regarding Nova
Posted on 29-Jul-2003 20:53:01
#3 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

Quote:

peggus wrote:
Considering the recent release of the OpenGl 1.5 and to a lesser extent the 2.0 specifications/suggestions. I wonder how compatible Nova will be with these upcoming standards?

-Peter


Nova will be as compatible to OpenGL as it is to DirectX - i.e. "not really".

Nova will be a more Amiga-oriented API. It will use the means of OS 4 and be more tightly integrated into the system than OpenGL can ever be. Conceptually most modern graphics API'S (OpenGL or DX9) are equivalent, it is mostly a matter of naming and paradigm.

Plans are there for an OpenGL implementation based on the latest Mesa. We do see the need to support an open standard like OpenGL, however, the biggest problem with OpenGL as of today is the speed at which development works - in 11 years it made it up to 1.5 only.

This isn't the biggest problem due to the extensions mechanism of OpenGL as long as you are on Mac/Linux/Windows, but on the Amiga you will run into trouble since some of these extensions (and some of the very important extensions) are proprietary. NV_vertex_program is proprietary for example, meaning you cannot implement in on non-nVidia hardware (Mesa had to obtain an extra clearance for that, and may only implement it in software).

However, these extensions resp. the functionality they provide are somewhat essential. There is no point in having a Radeon 8500 if you cannot support its pixel and vertex shader hardware.

The only soluition is an Amiga-specific graphics API.

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soft 
Re: Question for hyperion regarding Nova
Posted on 29-Jul-2003 21:14:39
#4 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 209
From: Derbyshire, UK

Would it be too difficult to make a wrapper for the Nova API to make it easier to port OpenGL (and possibly even DirectX) applications?

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alx 
Re: Question for hyperion regarding Nova
Posted on 29-Jul-2003 22:06:10
#5 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1224
From: Midlands, UK

@Rogue

I hadn't noticed that you were posting again - welcome back

I'm no 3D expert, but how similar will Nova be to OpenGL (ie how easy will it be to port OpenGL stuff)?

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peggus 
Re: Question for hyperion regarding Nova
Posted on 29-Jul-2003 22:43:09
#6 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Jul-2003
Posts: 159
From: Pasadena

Thank you for the quick reply. Much appreciated.

-Peter

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turkamigaman 
Re: Question for hyperion regarding Nova
Posted on 29-Jul-2003 22:43:55
#7 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-May-2003
Posts: 707
From: Izmir Turkiye

@ rogue

This is what I say "clean answer"

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Rogue 
Re: Question for hyperion regarding Nova
Posted on 29-Jul-2003 23:00:04
#8 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

Quote:

soft wrote:
Would it be too difficult to make a wrapper for the Nova API to make it easier to port OpenGL (and possibly even DirectX) applications?


No, this is perfectly possible. MiniGL basically is that - a wrapper around Warp3D for OpenGL compatibility. And the original StormMesa port was based on Warp3D too.

For Nova we would like to try and integrate the OpenGL port more tightly by using the same drivers for both. But nothing is really written in stone yet.

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Rogue 
Re: Question for hyperion regarding Nova
Posted on 29-Jul-2003 23:02:44
#9 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

Quote:

alx wrote:
@Rogue

I hadn't noticed that you were posting again - welcome back


Yes, more or less. I'll restrict myself to sensible discussions, though

Quote:

I'm no 3D expert, but how similar will Nova be to OpenGL (ie how easy will it be to port OpenGL stuff)?


That always depends on the application/Game to port. For some it is easy (like Freespace for example), but for others it is substantially more difficult (Shogo comes to mind)...

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hnl_dk 
Re: Question for hyperion regarding Nova
Posted on 29-Jul-2003 23:06:20
#10 ]
Super Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2003
Posts: 1786
From: Denmark

@ Rogue

Hi' Hans-Jörg

Also welcome back from me

Nice to have You around

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DaveyD 
Re: Question for hyperion regarding Nova
Posted on 29-Jul-2003 23:39:04
#11 ]
Team Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2002
Posts: 2737
From: Belfast, N.Ireland

Welcome back Hans-Jörg, glad you're back

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herewegoagain 
Re: Question for hyperion regarding Nova
Posted on 30-Jul-2003 1:06:04
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jan-2003
Posts: 3270
From: Charlotte, NC

Quote:
Welcome back Hans-Jörg, glad you're back


Yes, welcome back indeed.

I cannot understand how the rest of you guys remember which is Thomas and which is Hans-Jörg. I just get confused.

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LordArt 
Re: Question for hyperion regarding Nova
Posted on 30-Jul-2003 1:18:23
#13 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2003
Posts: 113
From: South Bound Brook, NJ

@Rogue

Well, I have an OpenGL game that I've been working on for a few years that I was hoping to port back to AOS4(ie. It's on Win32 using a HAL). It is written in OpenGL for the graphics side of it. I'm not doing anything card specific yet (ie. it's currently only using OpenGL 1.1 with only a few minor extensions above that). It's better for me to keep a single code tree, rather than to do a version per OS. Will Nova at least be OpenGL 1.1 compatible in your eyes at present? Could I do something like glPopMatrix()=novaPopMatrix() or is something more complicated needed/foreseen?

Welcome back, BTW.

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Rogue 
Re: Question for hyperion regarding Nova
Posted on 30-Jul-2003 11:05:52
#14 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

Quote:
Will Nova at least be OpenGL 1.1 compatible in your eyes at present?


No, not really. You would either need to use the OpenGL implementation (that is going to be in there), use a wrapper library like MiniGL, or rewrite your code for Nova.

Nova is mostly component-based, meaning it is more similar to DirectX 9. For example, to render the contents of a vertex buffer into the current context, you would do something like



context->SetSource( ... );
context->DrawPrimitiveIndexed( ... );


The same thing in OpenGL would look something like


glInterleavedArrays( ... );
glDrawElements( ... );


As you can see there is a certain duality with OpenGL (and the same holds true for DirectX 9), but it doesn't translate directly.

Quote:
Welcome back, BTW.


Thanks To all of you...

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Agafaster 
Re: Question for hyperion regarding Nova
Posted on 30-Jul-2003 11:32:59
#15 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 1413
From: West Midlands, England - sector ZZ9 plural Z alpha

Quote:

Rogue wrote:
Quote:
Welcome back, BTW.


Thanks To all of you...


Oi ! Back to Work you !

only kidding !

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ikir 
Re: Question for hyperion regarding Nova
Posted on 30-Jul-2003 11:48:23
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2002
Posts: 5646
From: Italy

Welcome back, and thanks for the professional replies

Happy to have you here

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ssolie 
Re: Question for hyperion regarding Nova
Posted on 30-Jul-2003 15:57:11
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2755
From: Alberta, Canada

Without Nova,
Game -> OpenGL API -> OpenGL driver -> Warp3D driver -> Hardware

With Nova,
Game -> Nova API -> Nova driver -> Hardware

With Nova and OpenGL,
Game -> ((OpenGL API -> OpenGL driver) | (Nova API)) -> Nova driver -> Hardware

Am I getting close?

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Rogue 
Re: Question for hyperion regarding Nova
Posted on 30-Jul-2003 19:20:23
#18 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

Quote:
Am I getting close?


It's really more like the OpenGL API and NOVA API building on some common 3D kernel. That keeps the paths to the hardware shorter.

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AndrewKorn 
Re: Question for hyperion regarding Nova
Posted on 30-Jul-2003 23:53:54
#19 ]
Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 57
From: Unknown

Quote:

Herewegoagain wrote:

I cannot understand how the rest of you guys remember which is Thomas and which is Hans-Jörg. I just get confused.


Actually the whole twins thing isn't strictly true, it's just a cover story they tell people. Thomas is the product of a Commodore64 sprite multiplexing routine Hans-Jörg wrote that accidentally interacted with a Star-Trek style space/time anomaly and multiplexed its author.

When Hyperion start running the code on a C-One, it's hoped that the 'plexer will be able to run at 4-6 Friedens per frame, speeding up the development time of OS4 considerably.


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herewegoagain 
Re: Question for hyperion regarding Nova
Posted on 31-Jul-2003 0:31:14
#20 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jan-2003
Posts: 3270
From: Charlotte, NC

Quote:
When Hyperion start running the code on a C-One, it's hoped that the 'plexer will be able to run at 4-6 Friedens per frame, speeding up the development time of OS4 considerably.


Well bring on the C-One's then.... let's get those multi-friedens going.

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