Just thinking out loud here - not pointed at anyone except those that feels hit.

Well, George Bush as president of the entire earth is to me as appealing as Microsoft Windows in every home computer.

One entity/person/company should not have everything in any situation or case.

Suppose all cars ever produced would be Volvo. Think they would be cheap? Think the spare parts would fit between different year models? Nope.

They would be more expensive because there is just one to choose from. They don't have to compete in pricing. And they can make people need newer, more expensive stuff for it every time they release a new model.

Now, what if, you were building vacuum cleaners for cars and had been doing that for 10 years of your life. Great car vacuum cleaners. What would happen the day each Volvo sold included a car vacuum cleaner Volvo created?

Think people would buy your model even if it was somewhat better?

Quote:

Suppose all cars ever produced would be Volvo. Think they would be cheap?

Nope, but perhaps the world would be a safer place

Quote:

Quote: Suppose all cars ever produced would be Volvo. Think they would be cheap? Nope, but perhaps the world would be a safer place

Hmm a better comparison would be a Wartburg or a Lada. In Soviet everybody used to drive Lada. Lada had monopol. Was that a good situation? (Hint: the answer is not yes.)

@Bodie
Quote:

I wonder, would any government fine Apple for including applications such as iPhoto etc. in OSX

The difference being, of course, that Apple is not a monopoly.

THAT is what this is all about. The responsibilities of the monopolist have not been met.

- Paul

Quote:

Sad, but true. People buy their pc's and it does everything they want it to do, so don't bother to look for better.

Indeed. People just refuse to replace their M$ software. For example, people insist on forking out thier hard earned dosh on Office when they could simply install OpenOffic.org from a magazine coverdisk. Another example, take a look at peoples opinions of Outlook (and Outlook Express) on this thread

http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/forums.asp?s=1&c=1&t=33749&p=0

To me it seems people just seem too lazy to look for alternatives.

oh well, I see just alot of people complaining about M$ yet they themselves refuse to do anything about it. On many PC magazines you will see a Linux distro on a coverdisk (two recent examples here in OZ are PC Magazine with Xandros and Atomicmpc with their own multimedia based distro) , yet people stick with Windows.

Vote with your hip pocket if you want to see Microsoft go down. Besides, everyone should just go buy an A1 .

But if it's ubiquitious, then why should someone change?

Example: DVD playback, setting up Xine is a right sh|t, so you just what's there. If it ain't broken, don't fix it mentality easily sets in. I wouldn't replace my Winbox in any way (and yes, I have toyed with a dual box: Mandrake 9.1 and will be buying the Micro A1). It does everything I need it to do off the cuff as it were. I applaud M$ because, they were a start up, small company, and have grown into something so large that it boggles the mind. I know that the software isn't fullproof, however, from the sense of convenience, it rules. Also the fact that most games only run on this platform (which for me is an important consideration), means that I won't be letting it go for a while yet.

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Quote:

But there is a difference between the two. Go to apple.com and check out the OS X downloads section, you'll find alternatives to Apple's software listed. I can delete any of the iLife applications I wish easily from the system without any adverse effects. I can delete safari safe in the knowledge that the machine won't refuse to work afterwards. I can select whatever mail client, or webrowser I wish as my defaults. I can set the system to open any software I wish when I attach my digital camera. The only Apple application in my dock at the moment (out of 12 items not including the finder) is iTunes..

Im in two minds about this - for example, Apple ties you to OS X, and you wouldnt spend a fair amount of money on an Amiga One unless you wanted to Run Amiga OS. On a global scale these arn't monopolies - but in their own way they are, in so far as you are buying into one system, and are beholdent on them to deliver.

In the X86 world what real alternatives are there? Furthermore the world need standards to operate - for example DVD. It would be insane if everyone had propriotory designs... but that is the extreme of competition Of course Microsoft took advantage - but where is the line drawn, and who desides that they have crossed it? Furthermore if windows actually did what it said on the tin, would we be having the anti-trust cases' - Are governments persuing it to bump up their own revenue - or are they concerned (as I am) that no one company should have more power than a democratically elected government of a country? If they wanted to, they could sell windows for half the price - they have suffient funds to really drive the market - and make a profit... but they are stagnating it now.

I for one think a modern OS should come with everything you need out of the box : A mail client, browser, media player, Messaging client, Archiver - but I also feel that you should be allowed to uninstall them should you wish without hurting the functionality of your machine. Likewise the OS should not cripple competitors products... Maybe Microsoft has just got too big and doesnt know what to do - where to go, fears its gonna loose dominance and so sets dirty tactics in motion?

@Bobsonsirjonny

Quote:

Are governments persuing it to bump up their own revenue - or are they concerned (as I am) that no one company should have more power than a democratically elected government of a country

For me, OEM licensing is the big issue.

At the very minimum, OEM vendors should be able to include alternative software (eg. players such as Real, Quicktime, etc.) without fear of having their Microsoft OS OEM distribution rights revoked. Edit: as part of the initial HDD image.

It would also be a big bonus if alternative Operating Systems could be installed alongside MS Windows.

The fact MS has kept things this way so ruthlessly goes to show how scared they are of competition. And as a monopoly, it's kind of depressing that it has been allowed to go on for this long.

- Paul

Quote:

This is the same thing they did with Internet Explorer vs. Netscape

Recall Netscape?s screw ups during Netscape 6.0. Before 6.0, Netscape was dominating web browser. Note that ?Media Player? has been bundled ever since MS Windows 3.1.

Competition like, RealOne Player 2.0** (ads-ware)(1) and Apple?s QuickTime 6.0** (occasional nag-ware i.e. ?Why do you need to update QT6.0 Pro?)(2) it?s no wonder why they failed to capture PC market.

**Principle complaints against MS's Media player. Apple?s QuickTime 6.0 is also an adware product e.g. currently showing "Fleetwood Mac rumours" advertisement.

Quote:

As long as only Microsoft knows about the true internals of the OS no-one else will ever be able to compete against M$-products.

Microsoft didn't require "true internals of the OS" of other close source OSes during the MS's in 1990s. Is there a clone of Apple?s Aqua interface?

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@ ohno

At the minimum compliance with ruling, MS could just remove the ?wmplayer.exe? executable and link it to download on demand (e.g. part of auto-updates). ?wmplayer.exe? is only 72 Kbytes. It would seem that MS has seen this coming?

Quote:

But those same countries are not allowed to judge their wrongdoings

It?s a no a brainier that Lindows is a spoof of Windows. Microsoft was 'not directly' against Linux e.g. Red Hat Linux was untouched. The issue was it?s brand name. Such legal fight is similar ?Crazy John? vs ?Crazy Rons? legal battles in Australian courts.

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@csirac

Refer to USA rulings i.e. the right to include 3rd party icons/applications on the desktop.

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Quote:

On many PC magazines you will see a Linux distro on a coverdisk (two recent examples here in OZ are PC Magazine with Xandros

I tried Australian PC Authority Magazine's Xandros 2.0 and it couldn't complete the installation (e.g. unexpected EOF error). Another broken distro (sigh)...

PS; I have Lindows 4.0 installed in my spare PCs?

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Quote:

I work as a free-lance developer for a software house. Today one of their customers called the support for help with a Word document. They would like to have a table in the document sorted incresingly on the second column, but couldn't get it to work. The support also couldn't, so she came to me. I loaded the 1.06MB document into StarOffice, selected the table, then sorted it incresingly on the second column and saved it back in .doc format - now only 635kB. The support then sent the document back to the customer.

IF you are not satisfied with MS Word then buy another WP package. There's nothing stopping you in purchasing StarOffice 7.

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@Hammer:
Quote:

Microsoft didn't require "true internals of the OS" of other close source OSes during the MS's in 1990s

(RE: Discontinuing IE on Macintosh)
MS Mac Browser: Fuhgeddaboutit:
Quote:

Sommers said Apple is in a better position to create a browser with more features and that offers a smoother experience because "Apple has access to functionality in the (operating system) that Microsoft doesn't." "They can do things because they're developing on their own (operating system) that we as a third party programmer can't do," she said.

- Paul

@hammer
Quote:

Recall Netscape?s screw ups during Netscape 6.0. Before 6.0, Netscape was dominating web browser. Note that ?Media Player? has been bundled ever since MS Windows 3.1.

Netscape had to go from over half of their revenue being provided from browser purchases to virtually zero. This in part explains the "screw-ups" (lack of resources) in delivering a successful Netscape 6 product.

Re: WMP. This isn't just about the software itself. It is about delivery channels, content distribution.

The money in these players is not in registrations, but selling eg. access to media content, and royalties/licensing on setting up media delivery sites/companies/groups/networks that provide eg. streaming & on-demand content.

If Microsoft is able to push WMP onto the masses, then they will conveniently have control over media content delivery channels.

The future is in content delivery, and Microsoft wants to control that too. WMP, and restricting competition, is their solution.

Edit:
Quote:

There's nothing stopping you in purchasing StarOffice 7.

Everything still isn't exactly peachy though. Working with non-MS word processors (or even MS Works) is a PITA due to interoperability issues. For all the things MS has done just in the world of word-processing (see the cases regarding Win3 "crippling" WordPerfect), I would be happy if they either a) supported an editable, open, format for saving documents and/or b) released the specs for .doc & embedded com objects from which a reasonable implementation can be derived with REASONABLE license terms (unlike the current XML spec. publicity stunt).

- Paul

Quote:

IF you are not satisfied with MS Word then buy another WP package. There's nothing stopping you in purchasing StarOffice 7.

It's not that easy. The problem lies in the doc format. MS does everything, they can, to have people save their documents in doc format, which is a closed proprietary format owned and maintained by MS. MS change the doc format all the time, even so newer versions of Word can't read old documents properly. They also change the macro-language to handle fields in documents. MS change the doc format, so competition have problems reading (and writing) documents in doc format. So you'll have problems, when someone sends you a document produced in Word, if you don't have the same version of Word yourself. That's monopoly and unfair competition. Being a monopoly, MS should be forced (and they are by law about monopoly) to e.g. use an open format for the documents, so everyone else could read their documents. Then we'll have fair competition again.

I always tell people to save their documents in rtf format, if they can (and most of the time, they don't use features, which is not part of the rtf format). rtf can be read and written in all word processors, I know of, and on any operating system. As a side note, rtf is also owned by MS, but they don't change it, like they do with doc, because so few use it. If rtf get used in large extent, you'll see rtf get changed too - like doc is. So don't tell too many to use rtf. *sigh*

@Hammer
oster: Hammer Date: 25-Mar-2004 22:17:37

Quote:

@csirac Refer to USA rulings i.e. the right to include 3rd party icons/applications on the desktop.

This is the most recent document I could find from the antitrust trial, dated Feb-27-2002 08:30
http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/ms_tuncom/major/mtc-00030608.html:
Quote:

* Microsoft is not prohibited from retaliating if an OEM removes the code for a Microsoft Middleware Product from its retail PCs. * Nor does this provision prevent retaliation if an OEM removes either icons or code for Microsoft software that does not qualify as a "Microsoft Middleware Product" (for instance, Microsoft Movie Maker). * And Microsoft is not prohibited from retaliating against OEMs for promoting products that fall outside of the Section III.A terms. By way of example, Microsoft could retaliate against OEMs for promoting non-Microsoft Internet services, server operating systems, server middleware or server applications. Microsoft could even retaliate against OEMs for distributing or promoting middleware that does not yet compete with Microsoft Middleware Products.

Okay so I've been debugging ASM compiler output for 10 hours and I'm bored

I have a life... really, just ask my friend...

@Geomol:
Quote:

As a side note, rtf is also owned by MS, but they don't change it

And it's not that RTF specs are fully documented, it's just that it is easier to reverse-engineer.

- Paul

@csirac
Refer to
http://www.kegel.com/remedy/

http://www.dcd.uscourts.gov/Opinions/2002/Kotelly/FinalDecree.pdf

Quote:

Upon the record of trial and all prior and subsequent proceedings herein, it is this 1st day of November, 2002, hereby ... Microsoft shall not retaliate against or threaten retaliation against an OEM by altering Microsoft?s commercial relations with that OEM, or by withholding newly introduced forms of non-monetary Consideration (including but not limited to new versions of existing forms of non-monetary Consideration) from that OEM, because it is known to Microsoft that the OEM is or is contemplating: 1. developing, distributing, promoting, using, selling, or licensing any software that competes with Microsoft Platform Software or any product or service that distributes or promotes any Non-Microsoft Middleware; 2. shipping a Personal Computer that (a) includes both a Windows Operating System Product and a non-Microsoft Operating System, or (b) will boot with more than one Operating System; or 3. exercising any of the options or alternatives provided for under this Final Judgment.

Refer to
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=14950
US politicos is now wadding into EU?s MS anti-trust case.

Quote:

TEN MEMBERS of the US House of Representatives wrote a letter to the European Union's antitrust commissar yesterday more or less telling him and the EU to lay off all-American company Microsoft.

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Quote:

It's not that easy. The problem lies in the doc format. MS does everything, they can, to have people save their documents in doc format, which is a closed proprietary format owned and maintained by MS

It has been proprietary format as with Word Prefect files.

Quote:

They also change the macro-language to handle fields in documents

Microsoft is not the first company that breaks the compatibility with the older products.

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Quote:

(RE: Discontinuing IE on Macintosh) MS Mac Browser: Fuhgeddaboutit:

Statement was made within the context of Windows not with the others. Secondly, MS has been dragging its feet with Mac IE 5.0 even before the Safari incident i.e. MS is just being lazy. Note that Safari is based on KDE's integrated html browser(1)?

Reference;
1. http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/linuxunix/0,39020390,39145507,00.htm

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