From the AROS point of view anything that moves things forward is welcome, and AROS on PPC platforms would be a major asset

If a sufficiently advanced version of aros (and it's getting there very quickly!) is ported to the mac mini (it should be easier than porting OS4, because aros is OSS and so knowledge can be freely lifted from Mac Linux), it will deliver a crushing blow to Eyetech and Hyperion.

Judging the angry reaction of people to the deplorable communication skills of A1 dealers, I think many would just opt against using OS4 regardless of whether it's better or not. As the old saying goes, "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush". I know I would seriously consider it; I own an XE board that I would like to have patched, and have been in contact about this with a dealer who does not reply to my emails. Given this and past Amiga history, I no longer feel comfortable about mailing him my motherboard for repairs - I can easily imagine the same situation as now, only instead of me offering to buy his services I would be asking for my board back, and getting the same answer: silence. No thanks.

I mean, given that the technology is very similar (and in some cases better), would you buy the well-supported, $600 *complete system* or the "email black hole", "[insert dealer name] said he had it in front of him weeks ago and now it's on order" $800 *motherboard*?

I would say that there is a race on, and it's not obvious at this moment who will win. Those who take this seriously (and clearly many don't) might want to do something about it while there's still time.

Last edited by CodeSmith on 20-Feb-2005 at 08:53 PM.

I want Aros to run native on my SE.

Coder

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In fact, let me state this more strongly: the main reason I bought an AmigaOne instead of a Pegasos was because of intense personal dislike of the man in change of Genesi. If you eliminate that one factor, the Pegasos and AmigaOne hardware are very similar to each other, MOS and OS4 have very similar capabilities, a Peg was cheaper and Genesi had much better customer support. If an amiga-like OS is ported to a Mac, history will repeat itself and that one personal obstacle will not exist; I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees things this way.

@CodeSmith

It is because of the very same reasons (and the fact that I in no way will support DCE) I'm not a Pegasos owner today :)

It's true that Genesi have dealt much better than Eyetech with hardware problems, but they pulled the support for MOS and PEG users could end up with a dead OS, so all in all I won't say they have that much better customer support.

If an Amiga like system is ported to the Mac Eyetech and Hyperion certainly get things they need consider but if it is AROS in it's current state it's no big problem. AROS is IMHO FAR behind OS4 and doesn't seem to catch up, quite the opposite actually. But I would love to see OS4 on cheaper hardware like the MacMini, even though we don't need the speed atm.

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@Troels:

Right, I'm talking about the situation as it was at the time I bought my XE. Actually, IIRC at that time OS4Pre wasn't even out yet (Ordered Nov 2003, arrived Feb 2004).

Quote:

If a sufficiently advanced version of aros (and it's getting there very quickly!) is ported to the mac mini (it should be easier than porting OS4, because aros is OSS and so knowledge can be freely lifted from Mac Linux), it will deliver a crushing blow to Eyetech and Hyperion.

AROS already runs on much cheaper and much faster hardware than the mini mac. Plainly, I don't understand the obsession that people seem to have about this machine.

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Quote:

If a sufficiently advanced version of aros (and it's getting there very quickly!) is ported to the mac mini (it should be easier than porting OS4, because aros is OSS and so knowledge can be freely lifted from Mac Linux), it will deliver a crushing blow to Eyetech and Hyperion.

AROS is already available for PC hardware. The Mac Mini market is absolutely laughable in comparison to that.

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All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Hyperion Entertainment

Quote:

If an Amiga like system is ported to the Mac Eyetech and Hyperion certainly get things they need consider

Again, in what respect should the minute Mac market be any threat to us when AROS already runs on PC's ? Why is AROS on the PC not a problem, but on the Mac, it is ?

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Thomas, the kernel guy

"I don't have a frigging clue. I'm norwegian" -- Ole-Egil

All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Hyperion Entertainment

Guys, don't get me wrong! I don't *want* Hyperion and Eyetech to be crushed, I'm stating what might happen unless people do something about it.

BTW, the one thing an aros port to the mac (the mini just happens to be cheap, so it's a good candidate) would have over its x86 version would be the possibility of being *binary* compatible with OS4. People would be able to buy a cheap, supported Mac, get AROS for it and they could run Napalm, IBrowse, ToT, etc. I know that aros is not as far ahead as OS4 right now, but there's a certain amiga-compatible OS that just got orphaned. Some of the developer community for that OS will end up working on aros, bringing in fresh blood and ideas. Don't sleep on your laurels!

@Entil: Because then it would be a direct competitor to the MicroA1c (in a business view). Only the MiniMac is smaller, faster, and comes ready to run.

While AROS in it's current form is no threat to OS4 whatsoever, it's gradually coming ... more and faster! In the last 6 months general views about it in the Amiga community have shifted, admittedly on other boards more than here, and some heavy-hitting open source people have worked (or are working) on genuinely useful projects for it.

Whatever changes, sales, and trajedies have occurred in other camps, the Black camp has been plugging away doggedly, and that will continue. This isn't Return of the Jedi - in real life everyone gives in to the Dark side

Last edited by Holley on 20-Feb-2005 at 10:55 PM.

@EntilZha

"AROS is already available for PC hardware. The Mac Mini market is absolutely laughable in comparison to that."
If the MacMini market is laughable, what does that make the AmigaOne market :(

"Again, in what respect should the minute Mac market be any threat to us when AROS already runs on PC's ? Why is AROS on the PC not a problem, but on the Mac, it is ?"

AROS on the PC is no threat because of it's current status.
AROS in a more usable state availble on either pc or MiniMac would be a real alternative to expensive (faulty) hardware and OS4. Especially if AHT gets AROS-ppc development up in speed and maybe even releases some software for it.

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@Dave
Quote:

Ill keep my long held opinions about PwC to myself, but anyone can read Private Eye and find out about them....

weren't you involved with ATH Dave?

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What the #### are Amiga Inc doing? Last minute conditions? We could have had more machines running OS4 out there. For ####s sake. Who's call was that?? I'd like to know who's reponsible.

@Rogue

"AROS already runs on much cheaper and much faster hardware than the mini mac. Plainly, I don't understand the obsession that people seem to have about this machine."

You guys should know its not all about cheap hardware, Amaigans have always leaned towards the Exotiic side. Its about better hardware ? remember... Cheap always helps. MiniMac is both, with a good OS it could be the start of what all these STB folks have been dreaming about. Jobs is close, half that price and they'll build it into TVs.

Plus, I think you'll see a new class of computers created when you start seeing clustering of MiniMac's like G5's. Perhaps Mini Super Computers ? Literaly, I think they will sell a million of them. or more. Fast.

Lets just get OS4 out the door, when its done.

Let me know where to send your MiniMac. I'll get it in the mail ASAP.

@EntilZha

Are you Rogues evil twin ?

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Quote:

You guys should know its not all about cheap hardware, Amaigans have always leaned towards the Exotiic side. Its about better hardware ? remember... Cheap always helps. MiniMac is both, with a good OS it could be the start of what all these STB folks have been dreaming about. Jobs is close, half that price and they'll build it into TVs.

I don't readily understand this. If you want a small machine, get a MicroA1 (since pricing does not seem to matter). The board is 17x17cm, I have a small case here that is not much bigger than three DVD boxes next to each other.

If it is about price, get a VIA ESPIA board

Quote:

Plus, I think you'll see a new class of computers created when you start seeing clustering of MiniMac's like G5's. Perhaps Mini Super Computers ? Literaly, I think they will sell a million of them. or more. Fast.

Beg your pardon, but huh? There is no G5 in the MiniMac. The minimac would not be better suited for clustering than any other machine out there.

Quote:

Let me know where to send your MiniMac. I'll get it in the mail ASAP.

If you mean for OS 4, it will not happen, not in the forseeable future.

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@CodeSmith

Quote:

BTW, the one thing an aros port to the mac (the mini just happens to be cheap, so it's a good candidate) would have over its x86 version would be the possibility of being *binary* compatible with OS4.

Nice in theory, but a long way off. AROS is a clean, open source implementation of AmigaOS compatible with the API for OS3.1. The only time the AROS team have mentioned binary compatibility is with 68k binaries for OS 3.1 when running AROS on 68k Classic Amigas. I'm not sure the current state of AROS for 68k, but the only work I've heard about in the last couple of years was on porting AROS to Palm (68k Dragonfire).

To my knowledge, OS4 compatibility for PowerPC hasn't even been discussed and probably won't until AROS has achieved the goal of being a complete OS3.1 system. Even then, the x86 desktop market for AROS is going to overshadow anything the PowerPC market can hope to achieve right now.

Don't get me wrong, I love AROS and have a huge respect for the developers - they've worked hard all this time and have done an excellent good job. I just think if AROS ever ends up OS4 compatible, it is a few years off - even assuming more developers actually join to help them.

If you want a MiniMac running OS4, why not ask about licencing it for OS4? You can buy Macs with pre-installed Linux, so Apple aren't against the idea of people selling Macs with more than just OS X. You could get together a business proposal, licence the hardware and pay the cash to get OS4 ported if you believe there's a market. I would probably even help out such an initiative.

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@Dave
Quote:

Ill keep my long held opinions about PwC to myself, but anyone can read Private Eye and find out about them....

I assume that means you write for Private Eye.

PwC, like all accounting firms, is a partnership, not a corporation. There are hundreds, if not thousands of partners worldwide, unlike a corporation where there is One Chairman/President/Billg whose word - however garbled - is law.
Also, like all accounting firms (and similar professions) they do an important and necessary job which they rarely if ever get any thanks for.

A bit like Amiga retailers really. I should know, I worked for PwC for over 3 years.

PS I also read Private Eye, but I wouldn't insult Mr Hislop by taking his mighty organ as pure gospel. It serves the very necessary function of encouraging people not to accept Official Versions at face value, something many journalists tend to forget. There are idiots everywhere, just don't assume that one bad apple means the whole orchard is rotten...

Quote:

I don't readily understand this. If you want a small machine, get a MicroA1 (since pricing does not seem to matter). The board is 17x17cm, I have a small case here that is not much bigger than three DVD boxes next to each other.

Yes, but with either of these solutions you have to install the board in a box, add all the other bits, and install an OS. And with the x86 based boards you still have the x86 hardware thats the less desireable of the two.

A Mini Mac just plugs in and works. And it has a PPC

As for AROS, work on OSX hosted AROS is going on, and thats whats going to get the biggest boost from having a commercial boost. This may well, in turn, be helpful towards native PPC or hosted under OS4 and MOS ... hence adding alot of potential new directions.

I, too, am not against OS4 (heck, I'd love an A1 if I were rich), but I'm not joe bloggs in the street or NTL's CEO ...

Last edited by Holley on 21-Feb-2005 at 07:23 PM.

@ jahc

Quote:

Who's call was that?? I'd like to know who's reponsible.

I'm sure most of us are interested in all the gory details, but what would we really do with such information? Cut the one "responsible" up in little pieces and feed him/her to the dogs.



We don't know why there may have been "last minute conditions". For instance I wish Amiga Inc would have been more careful when they dealt with Thendic Electronics regarding their AmigaDE licence agreement, which was originally mainly intended for their never released WinCE Smartboy product, but eventually ended up being abused by Genesi to pre-empt court rulings and promote AmigaOS4 support for Genesi/bPlan's rival Pegasos products.

Agreement between several companies was needed. Sadly there were differences of opinion. Who's to blame (the most) is IMO mostly a matter of point of view.

Last edited by MikeB on 21-Feb-2005 at 02:16 PM.