@Jamie

You probably won`t read this untill tomorrow (your time0.

But would this help out a programming beginner (ie me), I have played with hisoft basic in the past, and am working my way through some Beginning C books, but I wouldn`t say I could program yet.

Your explanation on this thread sell`s it for me but I don`t understand half of the things about make files, and all the other programming jargon.

I think its a brilliant idea, in fact I subscribed to the SDK browser the other day, but just wondered if this would be over my head. The Template idea seems very useful to me.


PS, on seeing DaveyD`s mock ups, the reaction was WOW!!!
Update the site to something like that, with the subscription explanation you gave above and it will sell itself.

_________________
Peter Swallow.
A1XEG3-800 [IBM 750FX PowerPC], running OS4.1FE, using ac97 onboard sound.

"There are 10 types of people in the world: those who understand binary, and those who don't."

@thread-
The template is basically a 'sane' project layout with a genericized Makefile, plus a few alterations for the AVD #defines which presumably will eventually be used by the "New project" and such for the IDE.

I took a look, and you'll note that half of the files in the 'template' are links, so you can look for yourself. If you don't know GNU make, how to use VPATH, make dependencies and the like, this is a nice 'bonus,' as it will let many 'old-school' Amigans convert to the 'gcc way' much easier, and in a sane fashion for those that release their source, so more projects have a common/sane directory layout.

Jamie- you may want to clarify the code redistribution policy, as there are some that have no desire to sell their results, yet I believe that's the only redistribution mentioned (ie, you're allowed to distribute projects done with AVD to SELL).

I'm somewhat undecided at this point, myself. I applaud the project wholeheartedly...and want an IDE, however:
1. Much is made of you 'getting the alpha and betas to use prior to release.' While input on design and features is good, I don't see even a mockup of the IDE UI, or a preliminary features list, much less mention of expected timeline for the first 'usable something, alpha or not.' While you may very well _just_ be starting work on this....a bit of clarification, and perhaps supplying the above, might be more convincing overall.

2. I generally use Eclipse now for most everything, or failing that, vim. I've used DevStudio (MS' only good product IMO) and others in the past, and don't believe Eclipse to be 'the best IDE out there,' but I work on too many platforms at times, and the consistency is worth the few 'penalties' in running Eclipse. This opens up two comments in turn:

a. It would be wise to make the IDE at least configurable via key-bindings. Personally, if an IDE is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but has odd keybindings or forces me to use the mouse only....I'm 'less than thrilled' myself.

b. It might make the most sense to work on a graphical debugger first. It should be a smaller project than a full-fledged IDE, give a break to people not thrilled about using GDB, would give you 'something else to show' towards AWD, and thus generate some more sales/support. It should also obviously be mostly re-useable in the final product.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@Swoop

Quote:

But would this help out a programming beginner (ie me), I have played with hisoft basic in the past, and am working my way through some Beginning C books, but I wouldn`t say I could program yet.

I would have to say yes, it should help you, along with many other begining programmers
produce thier own software on AmigaOS4(tm). Especially the later versions of AVD,
which will actually write large pieces of the project for you. But that is out maybe two
years from now. As for right now consider these pieces will be the first things built:

1.) A text editor with color text highlighting of the C source keywords, etc.
(Yes, the inital target is C, as the main interface into the OS is in C. However
the text editor will accept different configurations for highlighting the keywords
of different languages like C++, HTML, etc.)

2.) A graphical tool to build ReAction GUI interfaces that outputs the working source in C,
to be directly included into your project.

3.) A programming documentation reference tool (essentially like the SDK Browser
but is more integrated into the other pieces listed here and includes some more features).

4.) A project manager interface that ties all of these pieces together and then adds a GUI
interface to the compiler (GCC) and shell output (one feature here would be to click on
an error message from the output display and it would bring up the specific source file
in question and go directly to the line where the error occurred).

5.) A graphical interface to the debugger (GDB)

These pieces are what I term as an IDE (Integrated Development Environment) and also
what I would target as version 1.0 of AVD (Advanced Visual Developer). These pieces would
be written one at a time and made available individually. The development of these pieces
are what you would be paying for with you $10 a month, and when each piece is released
you get a fully licensed and unlocked version. I will try to explain all this better on my web
site as soon as possible.

Quote:

Your explanation on this thread sell`s it for me but I don`t understand half of the things about make files, and all the other programming jargon.

This is a sample of a Makefile (which is read by the GNU "make" command in order to construct
the command lines to invoke GCC to actually build the code). Makefiles are cryptic at best.
The advantage to an IDE is that it builds and executes these Makefiles for you, which means
you don't have to know anything about them, just hit the "build" button.

Quote:

I think its a brilliant idea, in fact I subscribed to the SDK browser the other day, but just wondered if this would be over my head. The Template idea seems very useful to me.

Source templates (like the one I give away to subscriber of the plan), are an easy way to jump
start your programming efforts by giving you something that already builds and works to start
with. The IDE will also include such templates, which can be loaded in at the start of each new
project to provide a framework for your code right from the start. Their use is optional of course
but they can be very handy most of the time.

Thank you for your support!

Jamie

@All

The Makefile for the AVD Template (follow link above) is open for anyone who
wants to, can use it as a base for their own Makefiles. I will post a link on my
site to the plain text version soon.

_________________
Jamie Krueger
BITbyBIT Software Group LLC
jamie@bitbybitsoftwaregroup.com
PLEASE NOTE: I only speak for myself and my company,
and am not a spokesperson for Amiga Inc.

@Jamie-
Hi Jamie, not sure if you saw my comments just before your last post or not...but do you have an intended order for those items listed above? If so (and if it's not the order posted), you might also want to let that be known...so in other words, people would know what to expect 'relatively when' vs other pieces.

I'd suggest something like:

1. Debugger (would be standalone, but useful and most code should be able to be re-used for integration into IDE)

2. Text editor, syntax highlighting for C, possible framework for adding additional language modules

3. UI tool. Seems more than a few people asking for this, so might be a good idea to do before 4/5.

4. Project Mgmt and IDE enhancements (integrate debugger, SCM tool, misc)

5. doc/sdk tool. The SDK browser is already available and useful...so unless you wrote it so it's reasonably easy to integrate into the editor/IDE, might hold off until last.

Looking at this list, I can certainly come up with reasons why or why NOT to do it in this order, but as I think the debugger would be less work than the editor, as well as being immediately useful, it would at least get an alpha out there relatively soon.

Just a thought..

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@wegster

Thanks for the input.

BTW I posted the plain text version of the Makefile for the Template
on my website and the fact that it was open for use by anyone.

Quote:

Jamie- you may want to clarify the code redistribution policy, as there are some that have no desire to sell their results, yet I believe that's the only redistribution mentioned (ie, you're allowed to distribute projects done with AVD to SELL).

I'm not sure what section you were reading that gave you that impression
(please point it out if you can and I'll fix it) but to clarify, any code written or produced
by the IDE is open to be distributed freely or sold without any royalties being owed
to BITbyBIT or myself, as the author sees fix. In other words, you wrote it, you can
give it away, sell it, whatever. Note: The LICENSE file found on the web site only refers
to the use of the AVD Template source, which is a separate deal.

Quote:

Hi Jamie, not sure if you saw my comments just before your last post or not...but do you have an intended order for those items listed above?

The final order is still an open issue, but I favor the order I listed them in, this is one of the main
things that the subscribers get to vote their opinion about.

I am working on what you suggest however, in regards to getting this information up on the web site.
It is being redisgned now as you can imagine, and I m waiting to hear back from DaveyD on his design idea.

PS: What kind of features are you looking for in a debugger tool (GDB based)?

Jamie

_________________
Jamie Krueger
BITbyBIT Software Group LLC
jamie@bitbybitsoftwaregroup.com
PLEASE NOTE: I only speak for myself and my company,
and am not a spokesperson for Amiga Inc.

Hi Jamie-
It looks like the license issues I have are with the AVD template source, here's on excerpt:
Quote:

New subscribers will also receive the complete source code for AVD Template v1.0, a ready to build and run skeleton AmigaOS4 application as a BONUS Gift! The source code for this starter application is NOT Freeware or Open Source, but rather copyrighted source code, which is exclusively licensed for use only by subscribers of the Foundation Plan. This source is provided free of any royalty and may be used as a base of any freeware, shareware or commercially sold application as long as the source itself is not (re)distributed.

I would consider this one long and hard, as it's not uncommon for people to do projects and then publish the source. What this license would appear to do is restrict people from doing so, at least if they want someone to be able to BUILD it! This is a huge issue, and doesn't exactly help foster community coding projects (well, person A doesn't have AWD but wants to help on the project...so we don't use AWD??)

So, if people are willing to give you $ for AWD, they should certainly IMO be able to distribute anything they produce with it, including what I believe is the top level Makefile, dir structure (which, let's face it, is fairly standard...as it should be), and a few headers that would seem to be required by the AWD environment at some point.

The template is a nice gesture, and I think is worthwhile, as I already mentioned. I'd be fine were the license allowing re-distribution but retaining credits where credit is due (ie, project created with AWD, (c) BitByBit LLC etc. or similar), but any development environment that tells me I can't release a Makefile with...simply isn't of much use to me. I bought the XE to do _fun_/hobby coding on, not to make $ from. Granted, that's each person's choice, and I have no problem with that....but I sincerely think you'd be limiting your audience that you're trying to help (ie, people without GNU/gcc/Make experience), or forcing someone else to replace those bits and put it into the public domain. That's annoying, if you later expect the IDE to require and I'm assuming create some of it's own header files...which would become problematic again for anyone wishing to distribute source code.

That effectively means to me- if I want to release source for something, I shouldn't bother with AWD, and should just use VIM, my own dir layout, and archive it.

BTW, slight comments on your layout- it's '95% standard', but personally I always use something like:
[block]
project:
Makefile (all platforms)

amigaos4:
+--Makefile
src

include

bin

lib

doc
[/block]
and perhaps make accomodations for a top level Makefile, or adding an 'awd tree' where needed. The above also begs the question of if the IDE would allow for it to pull (or write) headers and stubs outside of this tree...as shown above, that really isn't ideal for multiple platform where most includes would be common acxross platforms and #defined as needed, and most source would be common, with perhaps only the UI code or some bits being Amiga specific...

Note this isn't meant as a slam, but that licensing if extended where I think it's likely to expect the IDE to use or create effectively the same layout and files....would be a big issue for me, and perhaps others.

If you remove the license restriction and come up with a component order and timeline, as well as total cost for initial release (the examples on website made sense, and make it sound like it's a maximum of $120, but it's not stated in those words, ie what's the max for projects A, B, C etc?), then I'm in.

RE: debugger fuctionality-
DDD is probably one of the best to go off of for reference, with something like KDevelop possibly being the end goal...but anything with basic breakpoints (clickable), that doesn't need everything done 100% via gdb command line would be useful....followed by watchpoints and 'the rest of the goodies' perhaps when IDE integration came...

EDIT- crap, I can't do preformatted blocks again, but you get the idea on the layout..

Last edited by wegster on 07-Apr-2005 at 01:38 AM.
Last edited by wegster on 07-Apr-2005 at 01:35 AM.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@Wegster

There has been a lot of confusion over the AVD Template source and
it's relation to the AVD Project and the Foundation Development Subscription Plan.

I hope to clear this matter up, and remove the AVD Template as an obstacle
to the development project rather than the helpfull starting point it was meant
to be in the first place.

Therefore, I have repacked The AVD Template project and released it as FREEWARE.

You can check out the details, browse the complete source tree and download the
source code here: www.bitbybitsoftwaregroup.com/avdtemplate

I hope this helps everyone out, and clears up any possible limitations regarding
the Advanced Visual Developer (IDE) development project.

Best Regards,

Jamie

_________________
Jamie Krueger
BITbyBIT Software Group LLC
jamie@bitbybitsoftwaregroup.com
PLEASE NOTE: I only speak for myself and my company,
and am not a spokesperson for Amiga Inc.

@Jamie
Heh. Ok, FINE...be that way!

I'll register after work tonight then, as long as you can give an estimate of the 'final cost' for initial subscribers?

Licenses are tricky and sometimes obnoxious things unfortunately...but good job, one problem solved

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@JamieKrueger

Btw, my ISP is giving me a hard time so I'll be moving the php script examples that was inspired by DaveyD's 'theme' to another site later. In case you wondered why they weren't online any more.

/Björn