Quote:

If AmigaOS 5.0 would be better than MacOS X this would only mean they base it on the BSD-kernel.

No, linux kernel. BSD sucks :)

Seehund instead of the "Cox Filter" you employ a much simpler method "Amiga Inc = bad, wrong, lies, everything evil" - the AI-is-bad device.

The AI-is-bad device works well anytime and anywhere, it need never be changed just repeated. By this device whatever is said or done by AI is already known before it happens - it has that magical property.

Unfortunately it has the problem that its only purpose is to convince the convinced that AI-is-bad, of course this does not work so well with people who do not share this viewpoint - it tends to run a little thin after awhile.

I suggest that instead of simply applying the same device endlessly you might consider either falling silent on the issue and spend energies on other things, or just post a simple comment, in shorthand, "AI = BAD" and leave it to the reader to fill in the rest, for in reality that is all you are saying.

I find it tiresome that AI provokes the same predictable response from the same quarters. I do not see people knocking AROS, lashing out at MOS, or slagging-off the Peg every time there is some news, but let AI say anything at all about anything and it is a different story.

As far as I am concerned there was some very bad news in this latest round of AI statements - the TAO option has been discarded. I simply assume there were licensing issues involved - rather than technical restrictions.

This is a great pity, hopefully not a permanent condition - but one you missed and why? Because you have previously disparaged TAO simply because AI was previously interested in that direction. As you dismiss OS5 as anything but hot air, why worry about it?

The dropping of TAO is significant, the redirection this implies is worth thinking about - but no-one can do that on the presumptions you have - so what exactly are you contributing?

Look at ADI (RUSKUN) you don't have to be positive about it, but surely you could say something worthwhile about what it could bring to the community? After all this one purchase, for good or bad, has brought the biggest number of paid programmers into the Amiga orbit than any existing move has in the last decade - that has significance surely?

Seehund consider, that the old battles have had their day, let sleeping dogs lie and change your approach a little. Nothing is to be won by this constant harping of meaningless mud slinging - it just doesn't have any point to it anymore.

_________________
Greg Schofield, Perth Australia

@GregS
Quote:

Seehund consider, that the old battles have had their day, let sleeping dogs lie and change your approach a little.

But screaming in public places that you want something is obviously the best way to get it. It works for two year olds so why not for everyone? License free hardware is only one more screaming hissyfit away.

_________________
ExecSG Team Lead

GregS,

Quote:

Seehund instead of the "Cox Filter" you employ a much simpler method "Amiga Inc = bad, wrong, lies, everything evil" - the AI-is-bad device.

No. Are you replying to someone else? I reposted McEwen's replies with all "forward-looking statements" and non-replies edited out.

The reason for the Cox Filter's existence is that all which AInc has stated in the future tense (and most of the present and past tense statements, too) has turned out to be "overly optimistic", untruths or outright lies. All that appears to be bull$hit, judging by credibility, previous experience, common knowledge and common sense, is better left disregarded (or as a source of mirth) until it's proven not to be bull$hit. It's not the Cox Filter's fault, or its users', that its application has always proven to be justified. What has smelled like bull$hit to high heaven has also been bull$hit this far. If this were to change at some time in the future, then the Cox Filter would lose some accuracy.


Quote:

I suggest that instead of simply applying the same device endlessly you might consider either falling silent on the issue and spend energies on other things, or just post a simple comment, in shorthand, "AI = BAD" and leave it to the reader to fill in the rest, for in reality that is all you are saying.

No, that is not what I'm saying. That is either your inaccurate interpretation of my(?) post (why complain when you "fill in the rest" anyway?), or an intellectually dishonest way to dismiss opinions that you disagree with. It's no better than Atheist's "blue troll" labelling left and right when people don't agree with him or AInc.

AInc = Good. Interview = Interesting and relevant. OS4 = PS3.
Better now? More food for thought? Didn't think so.

When I post criticism, I try to explain its justification if it's not obvious. I note that you're not asking for any explanations and prefer to "fill in the rest" on your own this time.

Now please explain why you think that "OS4 [is] planned to go on PS3!!!! - and other PPC consoles!" AInc/McEwen said nothing of the sort, so which device did you use to come to that conclusion?


Quote:

As far as I am concerned there was some very bad news in this latest round of AI statements - the TAO option has been discarded. I simply assume there were licensing issues involved - rather than technical restrictions.

Are you referring to amiga.org's 25 questions and the "no Tao for 'OS5'" there? If so, why are you dismissing technical limitations when it's already been made clear that intent was not suitable as a foundation for a buzzword-laden OS like "OS5"? Remember the last time AInc were supposed to make an in-house OS, and Tao's Francis Charig (or was it Chris Hinsley?) eventually said something along the lines of that AInc smoked too much cheap crack cocaine if they thought they could build what they publicly claimed to be building from Tao's stuff?


Quote:

This is a great pity, hopefully not a permanent condition - but one you missed and why? Because you have previously disparaged TAO simply because AI was previously interested in that direction.

Who are you talking to and what are you talking about? I missed what?
Please quit attacking that strawman, what did the poor guy ever do to you.
I have not disparaged Tao. I don't really care about Tao. Why should I have commented on Tao at all, and why should I have done it in this discussion about an interview where Tao aren't mentioned?

Pancakes. (I'm adding this because I missed it earlier, and I missed it because AI = BAD...) :P


Quote:

As you dismiss OS5 as anything but hot air, why worry about it?

Exactly. (Well, I dismiss it as nothing but hot air at the moment.) I'm not the one who worries about whatever foundation for some "OS5" vapourware that's mentioned in the varying AInc PR waffle.


Quote:

Look at ADI (RUSKUN) you don't have to be positive about it, but surely you could say something worthwhile about what it could bring to the community? After all this one purchase, for good or bad, has brought the biggest number of paid programmers into the Amiga orbit than any existing move has in the last decade - that has significance surely?

To which community? The PocketPC and mobile devices communities? Ruksun (note spelling) develop (or developed, they seem to have been dormant since 2004) little apps for PocketPC and mobile devices. In case they at some time would develop and sell something significant to those communities, then yeah, I suppose it could be significant to those communities and to AInc.
The Amiga orbit? You mean the Amiga, Inc. orbit? I don't think the haphazard application of an "Amiga" trademark by AInc is the least common denominator for our community. A small subset of us may also be interested in PocketPC games sold with an Amigawhatever trademark, or also be interested in Windows Vista, or in pancakes, or in astronomy...

I doubt that a hypothetical financial success for AInc would have much significance to the Amiga community. If they eventually started making money on their PocketPC content stuff, would they suddenly quit doing their best to make it impossible to make money on AmigaOS? In case they'd start making money elsewhere, why would they then stop trying to kill off AmigaOS? They could at least have allowed AmigaOS a chance to have a future from the beginning instead, and also make money on that. But they fumbled, they couldn't be bothered with AmigaOS, so they left it exclusively in the hands of incompetent and irrelevant hacks like Eyetech who killed it.

Anyway, of course it's not certain that the AInc investors' acquisition (in whatever way that may have transpired) of Ruksun's remains will mean financial success. It might however secure a certain supply of mobile device apps to distribute, which I guess AInc need since not many independent developers were interested in AmigaAnywhere and AInc's terms.


Quote:

Seehund consider, that the old battles have had their day, let sleeping dogs lie and change your approach a little. Nothing is to be won by this constant harping of meaningless mud slinging - it just doesn't have any point to it anymore.

You see mud-slinging and battling where there is none. I'm still not sure if you replied to the post or person you meant to reply to.

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Oh, bother.

@Fransexy,
Quote:

Why people are so violent against Amiga.

Funny, that's the same thing I wonder when I hear about AInc, Eyetech, Hyperion, Troika, etc. etc. But I didn't see much violence against Amiga in the responses on Slashdot. Mostly I just see people wondering why some feel it's necessary to make a "new Amiga", when there is no way that what is being produced today can muster the kind of magic that the Amiga did. Fortunately, it looks like despite everything that's happened that many people can immediately see that AInc. and Co. are just abusing the Amiga name.

_________________
Here for the whimpering end

Seehund, the Ruksun site has been redesigned, in the old site the part below was much more elaborate and included more on the code keeping database facilities, but here is what they have now.

Quote:

Our software re engineering services address the critical issue of porting successful solutions to newer technologies. Some of the common projects we are called to work on are: issues of obsolete technology and scarcity of resources for maintaining older applications, complex architecture and scalability problems, business logic mix-up, integration problems with other systems and difficulty in upgrading the system for new user requirements. ADI offers comprehensive services in these areas, specializing in re-deployment of legacy systems to newer technologies. Whether the development tool-set/existing application is at the desktop or on the Internet or a wireless environment, ADI is uniformly capable of implementing applications migration projects on time and within the scheduled budget. Our re-engineering services include code re-structuring, platform transitions, language conversion (comprising of language substitution, code clean up and redesign), and re-documentation.

The last part is interesting part, especially in light of Bill's rather cryptic comment on developer support for HW multi-platform distributions:

Quote:

You support them in the method and way that we are going to support them.

Now one thing that was missed was this connection. No TAO - but still a multi-HW approach - it does not leave many options, we have the VP approach (now discarded), the compile your own Linux approach (never worked all that well for a consumer OS), cross compiling common SDK, or something not done before which combines aspects of others). Which way is Amiga going in this?

The one that has not been tried before - centralized cross-platform compilation, where code is systematically documented, cleaned-up, full feature set added, multi-compiled and retailed.

ADI/RUKSUN is well placed for such a solution.

You dismiss, the small device expertise of RUKSUN (not denying it just rating it irrelevant) based on the fact that AI's previous exploits in handhelds. Well integration, which current OSes do so badly, is to my way of thinking, essential. If you have an argument why this would not be so I would like to hear it debated. An OS that can be scaled right down to a Phone and up to a desktop is something to aim for.

ADIs apparent expertise in wireless and other protocols has some real purpose in this, especially if a desktop is the hub and multi-HW the essential element in it.

I have supported the VP approach from the beginning, I still believe it is the best long term solution, however, whatever the cause of the move away from TAO, (whether legal or technical). Theoretically I cannot see any other long term solution eventually some form of VP code is the common future of computing - perhaps you have another perspective.

So just where in all of this has AI been duplicitous re OS5? Plans have changed, but is there not an underlying consistency and if that is there where is the place for harping criticism and constant bagging of any mention of OS5.

It may not happen, that is always on the cards, but the logic has been there all along - it was the reason I originally became attracted to AI and from there to OS4, as against MOS. Ie nothing about blind loyalty to AI, after all MOS produced good stuff sooner than anyone else, their work deserves praise and respect, but my faulting of that project remains today the same as it was then, - the lack of a long term direction (which has nothing to do with the problem the project now is in).

I also have been an advocate for OS4 going onto PS3 especially. Until recently this had been alluded to but not explicitly stated as a real objective. Bill has not announced any much, but as an objective for OS4 - ie he is not saying anything is being done in this direction - just that it is a focus for OS4. For that alone I would dance bananas.

Anything that points OS4 towards the PS3 is good news. OS4 selling in numbers solves a lot of problems, even for PEG owners. Once the ball starts rolling the HW license protection loses its purpose, a PEG port may not be a great hardship.

Quote:

I doubt that a hypothetical financial success for AInc would have much significance to the Amiga community. If they eventually started making money on their PocketPC content stuff, would they suddenly quit doing their best to make it impossible to make money on AmigaOS? In case they'd start making money elsewhere, why would they then stop trying to kill off AmigaOS?

The point in bold says it all. Seehund has it occurred to you that this has not been the purpose of AI - that such a thing is a creation of critics and that everything used to "prove" this silliness is capable of far simplier explanation? Try Occum's Razor.

The Orwell was quote was nice but misplaced.

The Cox's device likewise - what do you think the effect of applying this to development groups will always produce the same result - the very basis of development is future tense - exclude this and no development group that has not much to show appears as having "not much to show".


PS on TAO (leaving aside the quote).

Quote:

If so, why are you dismissing technical limitations when it's already been made clear that intent was not suitable as a foundation for a buzzword-laden OS like "OS5"?

What specifically was this technical limitation?

Drivers were always a problem from day one, partially solved through hosting. On that ADI has some solutions which TAO might not have had. Aside from drivers then what exactly was this limitation - I am not doubting that there may have been one - but I have never yet heard what it might be. Do you? If so can we have it stated here.

This is the problem with debates we are having. A lot goes beyond my teachnical understanding, but I like most readers here understand the general implication of specific limitations, at least we can pretty well guess at them. Instead what you present is hearsay, I have no idea exactly what was thought to be impossible to do, was it technical or the driver issue (no technical barrier but a very big financial one at least).

Seehund, you don't have to like AI, or Bill, or Fleecy - but you should surely stop hating them so much.

_________________
Greg Schofield, Perth Australia

GregS,

To me it looks like you're discussing from the assumption that anything AInc says about "OS5" is at all relevant, realistic and in the process of being implemented. Then you use your own more or less soundly founded speculations to come up with the blatant missing details to add to the meaningless buzzword-filled waffle emanating from AInc. I think this is futile.

One can include the ingredients "much better than MacOS X" and "not Tao" to write any recipe. That's the latest and most "detailed" information available.

But there has never been and still is no sign of anything going on in the kitchen. The Maître d' has come to the table countless times with these empty promises and ridiculously vague and/or totally unrealistic and/or contradicting descriptions of the wonderful dishes which are being prepared. Chefs come and leave. The restaurant shuts down and reopens. Even the vaguest recipies are in a constant state of flux. Nothing has been cooked. Well, OK, so they placed a bottle of intent tapwater on our table with an "AmigaAnywhere" label while we're waiting. The AInc Restaurant, since they're using the name of a defunct sausage factory, also allowed a hotdog stand to set up outside, serving overpriced "OS4 hotdogs with AmigaOnes" to a few of the remaining Amiga(TM) sausage fanatics. Yet there are still some people sitting inside, waiting for a new and wonderful three course meal.

"I think they're really trying to say they might at some time do something with veal!"
"No, I think lamb is nice, I bet they're actually trying to say they'll be cooking lamb!"
"He didn't say anything about it, but I think the Maître d''s point was that they changed white pepper to black pepper, which is too bad! I prefer white pepper."
"Now they claim to have bought the ketchup factory in India which once was contracted to deliver ketchup, surely that must be good? Look, the marketing blurb on the old ketchup factory's website claims they're good at tomato substitution! If that's not a guaranteed delivery of a three course meal In Two More Weeks, then I don't know what is!"
And now the brand new non-sequitur: "The MorphOS hotdog stand don't have any similar wonderful plans for future meals!"

How pointless.

Quote:

You dismiss, the small device expertise of RUKSUN (not denying it just rating it irrelevant) based on the fact that AI's previous exploits in handhelds.

I rate Ruksun and their development of apps for mobile devices irrelevant to creating a desktop AmigaOS that "will be better than MacOS X", yes.

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Well integration, which current OSes do so badly, is to my way of thinking, essential. If you have an argument why this would not be so I would like to hear it debated.

I don't have an argument, I didn't bring up the subject, I don't see the point. First I'd like to know what you mean with "integration", and how are current OSes doing it badly? And what's it got to do with this McEwen interview, or his vague murmuring about "OS5" for that matter? Same thing with the other things you have opinions on here: VP, scalability ... See the restaurant simile.

Quote:

So just where in all of this has AI been duplicitous re OS5? Plans have changed, but is there not an underlying consistency and if that is there where is the place for harping criticism and constant bagging of any mention of OS5.

The only consistency re. "OS5" is that there's still no evidence supporting that any development or any realistic and detailed project planning or long-term direction-setting has ever taken place, and this interview hasn't changed that.

Quote:

I also have been an advocate for OS4 going onto PS3 especially. Until recently this had been alluded to but not explicitly stated as a real objective. Bill has not announced any much, but as an objective for OS4 - ie he is not saying anything is being done in this direction - just that it is a focus for OS4. For that alone I would dance bananas.

"Until recently"? It has not been explicitly stated as a real objective, ever.
The only thing that has actually been said amounts to that PS3 has a Cell CPU, and AmigaOS on the PS3 would be nice. Nothing about anything being done, any plans, any objectives or any foci.

Sony don't condone 3rd party OSes running on the PS3, and of course they won't buy an AInc licence for the "privilege" of funding development of, selling and supporting AmigaOS bundled with PS3s. And can we even begin to imagine the AOS developers' complaints about "lack of documentation" for the PS3?? :D

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Once the ball starts rolling the HW license protection loses its purpose, ...

You mean the opposite, surely? If AmigaOS ever becomes a commercially attractive OS, THEN, and only then, a hardware licensing scheme might have its purpose. And not a compulsory scheme like today, of course.

Quote:

Quote: I doubt that a hypothetical financial success for AInc would have much significance to the Amiga community. If they eventually started making money on their PocketPC content stuff, would they suddenly quit doing their best to make it impossible to make money on AmigaOS? In case they'd start making money elsewhere, why would they then stop trying to kill off AmigaOS? The point in bold says it all. Seehund has it occurred to you that this has not been the purpose of AI - that such a thing is a creation of critics and that everything used to "prove" this silliness is capable of far simplier explanation? Try Occum's Razor.

Try applying Occam's razor on "OS5" and your speculations about that. :)

I doubt that the failure of AmigaOS was AInc's purpose, it's just the obvious result of their (in)action. Either AInc are/were Evil, Incompetent, or Disinterested. I think the probability for "Evil" is very low. :)

Quote:

The Orwell was quote was nice but misplaced.

I think that a flow of utterly meaningless marketing babble, coming from a manager who doesn't really seem to know what he's talking about, intended to push the right buttons in easily confused/impressed people's minds, is equal to Duckspeak.

Quote:

The Cox's device likewise - what do you think the effect of applying this to development groups will always produce the same result - the very basis of development is future tense - exclude this and no development group that has not much to show appears as having "not much to show".

It's not designed for development groups. It's designed for AInc marketing.

Quote:

Quote: If so, why are you dismissing technical limitations when it's already been made clear that intent was not suitable as a foundation for a buzzword-laden OS like "OS5"? What specifically was this technical limitation?

It just was not designed to be a foundation for a desktop ("general computing", so to speak) OS, much less a desktop OS that "is much better than MacOS X". It lacked memory protection, for one.

"Therefore set-top boxes (which, note, are not handhelds), smart phones and the like have to be our major target. I want to attract the very best Amiga engineers to write content for our platforms and this is why Tao entered into this relationship. We are certainly successfully attracting some major games companies to our platform at present. I can't advise you on what strategy is best for the desktop given the things that motivate you. My hope would have been something like a Linux-based intent strategy but I don't think that this is something that the participants here support. Best regards, Francis" [Charig, CEO of Tao, 2001]

" We're doing a lot of good things for Amiga out here but I'm afraid not much of it resides on the desktop.

I'm not only interested in handhelds; I've never said that we are. We're interested in all client devices and that includes handhelds. Therefore, we have to have a solution that adapts to all these markets. So, for example, Tao is aggressive within the dtv space as well. I also would expect us to be used on the desktop but not as the underlying operating system.

For those interested in an Amiga desktop pure and simple, it's not really my place to give advice. The reality is that the solutions for the desktop will be supplied by Apple, Microsoft and the Linux providers. Anything else will struggle to have a long-term future and is only likely to lead to further disappointment."

"AmigaAnywhere" might have been rendered redundant by intent GamePlayer now, anyway.

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Drivers were always a problem from day one, partially solved through hosting.

I thought you were talking about "intent NATIVE" (iRTOS).
"intent HOSTED" != an OS foundation, IMO.

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On that ADI has some solutions which TAO might not have had.

What would that be? To use McEwen's own words, "[core OS development] is not [ADI's] skill set."

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Seehund, you don't have to like AI, or Bill, or Fleecy - but you should surely stop hating them so much.

GregS, you don't have to agree with me, but you should surely stop ascribing me opinions and feelings which are not mine. :)

AInc aren't a worthy target for such a strong feeling as hate. Or love, or trust, for that matter. :) All I feel now is hungry, ta-ta.

Last edited by Seehund on 12-Oct-2006 at 12:18 AM.

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Oh, bother.