A very good and useful report! Thanks alot Mike, I wish I could have been there too.

Codesmith : I couldn't agree less : please let me defend the competitor :

" Meanwhile, while their team is getting it to a decent state, slag off the opposition saying how theirs is on the market first, and how the opposition is never going to finish theirs - this gets people to buy the half-finished OS, with the promise of how much better it's going to be (once person X buys an OS, they are unlikely to buy the other one)."

I disagree because :

1) MorphOS was begun much before the OS4 project was started. If it had been chosen as the official OS, it would have been ready much earlier. Some ppl seem to imply that MOS slowed the OS4 development down. It's completely false, it's rather the contrary. If OS4 hadn't existed, -and better if MOS had been the official choice - everybody would have contributed to make it ready even earlier.

2) MOS (pegasos) was sold as soon as it was usable to **betatesters** that could then begin to develop for it : I definitely think it important to prepare the platform for the moment when the system is more complete. Ppl who bought it were warned ! I use it as my main machine : even if it lacks some things, it works verrry well and it's exetremly impressive for something completely written from scratch.

3) OS4 can't be sold as beta now, because it misses critical parts (particularly for the AmigaOne): MOS has its critical parts done since 2001 or 2000 (pegasos h/w drivers since 2001 ?): what takes now some time is finishing the COMPLETE PPC native rewrite / enhancements of the AmigaOS API. Huge task. The initial BT release was thus quite minimalistic.

It's true that MOS 1.4 will bring many things that were really lacking. But MOS is VERY usable since a long time ago, on modern hardware. It has been tested a lot on those new machines.

It's true however that the first OS4 version will be quite complete, because everything was done in parallel, and it was not required to rewrite everything. (i.e. : MOS team rewrote arexx etc)

Conclusion : both situations are not comparable at all. Let's wait & see the products :) Both promise to be exciting :)

To everyone : please respect both projects / supporters of both projects / please be open.


MOS haters : no need to answer my message, thanks.

@mahen....

Hmmm, did you just edit that??



Ian

_________________
Life starts at 030, is fun at 040 and causes impotence at x86.

amimonkey : yep, I added some compliments regarding OS4 : will feature many additional things from the first release; while the first MOS release was minimalistic :)

@mahen

And you made one other tiny alteration - but I won't say anything if you dont!

Oh, and you can compare the situation of MOS and OS4. Neither MOS nor OS4 are currently in a complete enough stage to be sold - no matter what the details of each are. It's that simple!

Cheers,
Ian

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Life starts at 030, is fun at 040 and causes impotence at x86.

it's true, however I use Pegasos/MOS as my main machine since october 2002, so it's complete enough to be usable, for a long time amiga user like me, but of course, not for a wider audience. But of course you're right. Anyway, most ppl wait for a more complete MOS, or the OS4 release :)

@mahen
I guess it also depends on your definition of complete, but yes - MOS is USABLE, but IMO that's a far cry from complete!

(Windows 98 is "complete", but is it usable?! )

Anyhow, bring on MOS 1.4 Vs. AOS4.0!

Should be fun!

Ian

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Life starts at 030, is fun at 040 and causes impotence at x86.

Quote:

Why the hell does official OS4 developers spend so much time typing away, instead of getting the job done????

I thought this was a public forum, and everyone was invited?

But you're right. I just deleted all my Amiga bookmarks (again, I should add), and I am going to delete my accounts as well.

Do whatever you want, folks. I am sure I am going to sleep better without all this.

@Anonymous

Rogue?!?

I'm sad to see you go - take no notice of the naysayers, you and Hyperion are doing a good job!

Hope to see you back here again soon.

Ian

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Life starts at 030, is fun at 040 and causes impotence at x86.

Quote:

1) MorphOS was begun much before the OS4 project was started. If it had been chosen as the official OS, it would have been ready much earlier.

The OS4 project was started after the MOS project but the OS4 project has access to actual OS3.x sources whereas MOS doesn't so the playing field is not level.

I dispute whether or not it would have been ready much earlier as the official OS, too many cooks spoil the broth and I get the impression that the MOS coders are a tight knit bunch and I think throwing extra people in may not necessarily expediated MOS.

Quote:

2) MOS (pegasos) was sold as soon as it was usable to **betatesters** that could then begin to develop for it :

Betatesters generally test. They may also develop for it but their main function is to use the system in a realistic way to expose defects. In fact in the MOS environment the BetaTesters funded the beta stage through product sales.

Quote:

3) OS4 can't be sold as beta now, because it misses critical parts (particularly for the AmigaOne): MOS has its critical parts done since 2001 or 2000 (pegasos h/w drivers since 2001 ?): what takes now some time is finishing the COMPLETE PPC native rewrite / enhancements of the AmigaOS API. Huge task. The initial BT release was thus quite minimalistic.

OS4 is used as a beta now, it is not SOLD as a beta. That does not appear to be the way Hyperion want to
do things ( charging beta testers ).

The two operating systems have taken different routes because of their different histories.

OS4 has implemented all features before migrating onto PPC from a portable codebase.

MOS has gone to PPC with a 68k emulator as a first start not having access to the codebase. Then it has implemented features on top of that codebase.

Thus at this stage MOS is not feature rich, but is fully PPC ( apart from the modules it needs you to install from elsewhere - like a TCP stack ).


Quote:

Conclusion : both situations are not comparable at all. Let's wait & see the products :) Both promise to be exciting :)

Yep.

Quote:

MOS haters : no need to answer my message, thanks.

Whoops!

Ths is what REALLY f**ks me off. There is no need
for this constant picking on the OS4 development
team.

@Rogue

Most of us respect all the work you're putting into OS4 - this site is definitely a lot more peaceful than others. If you're not persuaded to return here soon, then I'm sure we'll here more from you in better times when we can see the fruits of you're labour. Good luck wrapping up OS4 - you show 'em

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Very nice MikeB:

We need more of this kind of review/report!

This has turned into a Smoldering Skirmish (as opposed to a full fledged Flame War) and thus dimminished your excellent effort with this. It was really well done...THANKS!

And my $.02 .......I'm pleased to have Hyperion and Fleecy here to help keep me (us) connected....... Not "wasted" time at all!

Bob C.

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@Ian

PS Im originally from Norfolk

@DaveP

Ooh arr, tractors and all that!

Where abouts were you from Dave?

Ian

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Life starts at 030, is fun at 040 and causes impotence at x86.

@Ian

Blast boy, oim from near South Walsham

@DaveP

Well stroik' a lite that's pretty close to me! :)

And I thought I was the only person from Norfolk who's got an Amiga...

Ian

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Life starts at 030, is fun at 040 and causes impotence at x86.

Quote:

Why the hell does official OS4 developers spend so much time typing away, instead of getting the job done????

It is actually none of your business what people do in their spare time...

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www.amiga4ever.de

Miffy :

> > MOS haters : no need to answer my message, thanks.

> Whoops!

Ah ah, you betrayed yourself :)

Anyway we all expose facts depending on our preferences so it's not use reiterating my own opinion :)

Oh damn, I can't help responding anyway :-/

OK I'll just add that Betatesters had to buy their machines, not MOS, and were people willing to contribute. Those machines work very well. I think it's better beta testing a very usable&stable&fast but incomplete MOS than playing with Linux. Many many machines were given for free to some BTs and developers too. I agree the currently available MOS is currently not as feature rich as the virtual OS4 -> but the latter does not run on A1 at all, its core being also incomplete on CPPC (petunia, many 68k parts, etc). If both are still betas, one of them is really usable without problems on recent hardware, the other still misses criticals parts **but** will be much more complete in its initial release than MOS :)

OK, I Shut up :

sorry, this is an AOS4 thread ! I was just "replying to" some accusations against MOS, but that's useless and not the place

& I respect a lot the AOS4 developers & wish every1 the best of luck...

Ooookay.....now this is a bit immature of hyperion, or whoever was the anonymous dude. The guy acts childish by throwing everything away, and at the end saying:

"Do whatever you want, folks"

This sentence is an example of what I've been trying to tell Hyperion......they can't be involved in very hard discussions on a daily basis, without it getting to their nerves.

That's why it's wrong to participate so much in ridiculeous discussions every day. Who knows...maybe it will hurt the amiga, because they are humans! - and humans tend to slack on their motivation, when confronted with negative statements every day.

I'm not trying to tell developers to stay away. But I can't see any good reason why the top-developers participate in flame-wars, etc. It will eventually hit back on them......back on the amiga!!!

And who knows if it's their sparetime?? - do you know??? - nobody knows. But you can be certain about one thing. I'm not the only one in here questioning their many posts.

I think it's wrong to be so active as hyperion has been. You would never ever see a pro football coach, engage in big discussions with the fans, supporters, journalists, ordninary people, etc.

I'm sorry if I have said something, that the hyperion guys misinterpreted. It was not my intention to make them angry, but just plain and simple tell them how i feel about the amiga situation. I do get carryied away sometimes, and i regret if hyperion thought I did'nt want to see them in these forums. That was not what i meant. I love to see these dudes chatting away, but I can't stand when they get involved in flamewars, etc....I'm just simply afraid it will hurt the development of the Amiga and the AmigaOS.

And finally to Hyperion....I'm sorry if I sounded rude and aggresive. I was not angry like that, just trying to reach your common sense, and tell you, that wild and hard tone discussions is no good for the amigas future.

I love you guys for your great work, and would love to see you attend these forums on a daily basis, if it's constructive for the amiga. (and as you are some of the key-developers, it has to be constructive!)

End of post

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On Planet Boing Trevor is God