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Hardware News   Hardware News : Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
   posted by BigBentheAussie on 19-Dec-2011 19:44:52 (54908 reads)
Commodore USA has a final challenge for this community that could enable them to have a new Commodore AMIGA with absolutely any of the features they want. We are serious about this, and we hope you will also take this offer seriously too, and contribute positively to the fruition of the Commodore AMIGA dream.

Allow me to outline our final challenge to the community, and how we can work together towards a unifying goal.
I have a list of obligations for the parties.


1. The community must definitively decide, through polls or whatever, what exactly it wants a Commodore AMIGA from Commodore USA to be.
2. Commodore USA will build and/or sell all product/s that will bear the official Commodore AMIGA brand.
3. Commodore USA will sell the first batch of a particular product AT (THEIR) COST to pre-paid customers only.
4. A minimum of 500 customers must pre-pay the entire amount in an independent account at a trusted institution (at the community's discretion) for the project to begin.
5. Commodore USA will negotiate for all required technology, be it software or hardware, and such costs will be divided by the amount of customers in the initial batch. So the more that join in, the lower the overall cost.
6. Commodore USA will outline all the costs, in as much detail as they are able to, before any customers make payment.
7. Commodore USA is ONLY paid on completion of the work to the satisfaction of the 500+ first batch customers, when the final product is ready to ship.
8. On project commencement, Commodore USA will provide monthly project updates until completion.
9. If Commodore USA does not perform the required work in 6 months of the project commencement date, then the 500+ customers have the option to withdraw immediately for a full refund of their prepayment.
10. Commodore USA reserve the right to affix a margin, at their discretion, to future sales of the product/s, past the initial batch.
11. The community will nominate two independent representatives or leaders who will liaise more closely with Commodore USA and report back to the community.
12. Sometimes negotiations require an NDA, that would limit public consumption of exact costs. In such circumstances that an NDA is required, the two nominated representatives of the community, who will also be under NDA, can independently verify such costs.
13. There will be no advertising of the product or its components by Commodore USA until project commencement.
14. In the meantime, Commodore USA will potentially continue with its current x86 based Commodore AMIGA plans, that will co-exist with the community's desired Commodore AMIGA branded product/s.

Warmest Regards,
Leo Nigro
Chief Technology Officer
Commodore USA, LLC
lan@commodoreusa.net
www.CommodoreUSA.net
    

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PosterThread
Fairdinkem 
Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Posted on 20-Dec-2011 6:09:23
#141 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Feb-2010
Posts: 483
From: Victoria, Australia

@samo79

Quote:

There are zero possibility that Hyperion will switch to x86, almost not now neither next year os so ...


Zero???? not likely by there own instigation but with financial support or the support of a company with resources is it truly out of the question when so many community members want such a product?


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sundown 
Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Posted on 20-Dec-2011 6:16:21
#142 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Aug-2003
Posts: 5115
From: Right here...

Have to admit, be cool to run os4 on an x86 system with amikit or amigaforever on a second partition for older s/w.

I am commited to the x1000 for now.


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sundown 
Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Posted on 20-Dec-2011 6:24:14
#143 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Aug-2003
Posts: 5115
From: Right here...

@Fairdinkem

Lets not turn this into a Hyperion vs CUSA war. If Hyperion doesn't want to play with CUSA, thats their right. Just because a hand full of ppl want something, doesn't mean Hyperion, or any company, has to give up their right to run their buisness their own way.


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samo79 
Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Posted on 20-Dec-2011 6:29:55
#144 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 13-Feb-2003
Posts: 3389
From: Italy, Perugia

@Fairdinkem

Problem is not financial but technical, bring OS4 to x86 means breaking instantanely any compatibility (in short: loose all software we have!) and rewrite from scratch different parts of the system, that means a lot and very long work that at the end no one knows how rewarding ...


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BigBentheAussie 
Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Posted on 20-Dec-2011 6:35:58
#145 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Oct-2003
Posts: 1690
From: Melbourne, Australia

@sundown
Hyperion and CUSA are not at war. That is a fanboy fiction.
They're both just companies doing what they can with the IP at their disposal.
Collaboration is logical....perhaps....even inevitable. We'll see.

Last edited by BigBentheAussie on 20-Dec-2011 at 06:36 AM.


_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

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Nameless 
Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Posted on 20-Dec-2011 6:45:41
#146 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Nov-2008
Posts: 315
From: Unknown

@samo79

I've seen this same argument mentioned before, but really, when you think about it, AOS4 doesn't have any software anyway. I don't mean this as a knock against what titles do exist, but compared to any modern or semi-modern OS, the software available frankly is rather limited. I haven't kept track of things, but does AOS4 even have a modern browser yet?

The advantages to x86 outweigh the negatives, in my opinion. Namely the possibility of getting the OS on many more machines than PPC, which would then spur on further software development. There is also the possibility of using a PPC emulator for the handful of AOS4 titles that people do wish to run.

Another option, although one I expect much less popular here, is to port MorphOS to x86 or Arm, get a license to call it AmigaOS 5 (or whatever), and go with that. But that may just confuse things even more.

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jap 
Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Posted on 20-Dec-2011 6:52:23
#147 ]
Member
Joined: 10-Oct-2005
Posts: 51
From: Unknown

@BigBentheAussie
Quote:
Pick the most likely.

If I have to choose, it would be the PPC motherboard.

To me Amiga is the operating system. If you run an Amiga emulator on a standard x86 hardware, it's not an Amiga. It's a fake. Therefore a real Amiga computer must have an Amiga-like OS, which at the moment means AmigaOS 3.x, AOS4, or MorphOS, and maybe AROS.

AOS3 is old and MorphOS, AOS4, and AROS will replace it over time. So I would rule it out. I've tried AROS and for some reason it felt more like an emulator than a real Amiga OS. Sorry. But I won't rule it out just because I prefer AOS4 and MorphOS.

Creating a new Amiga-like operating system would take years. We have AROS. Why waste resources to build new one?

It's quite obvious that there never will be an x86 MorphOS or AOS4, so the only option is to make hardware for them and AROS could use the same PPC hardware as well as Linux.

A PPC desktop computer would be sensible for the first product, in my opinion. Tablets and laptops could come later.

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samo79 
Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Posted on 20-Dec-2011 7:19:31
#148 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 13-Feb-2003
Posts: 3389
From: Italy, Perugia

@Nameless

Quote:
I've seen this same argument mentioned before, but really, when you think about it, AOS4 doesn't have any software anyway.


You might change your statement in: We don't have many software and that's true but if you say: "no software at all" well that's not true as currently OS4 have numerically more software than both MOS and AROS taked togheter ...

But even if you are right, your proposal is ... to restart again?
Trash all software we had and rewrite new software from scratch ?
Honestly I don't understand the logic here ..

Quote:
I don't mean this as a knock against what titles do exist, but compared to any modern or semi-modern OS, the software available frankly is rather limited. I haven't kept track of things


I think actually we can put AmigaOS in the "semi-modern" section, not better or worse comparing to others in similar situation, but again i fail to understand how having OS4 on x86 can improve the OS in general, the OS will stay the same, x86 or PPC doesn't matter ... we need developers instead and they will come or not come indipendently of the CPU used ...

Quote:
but does AOS4 even have a modern browser yet?


Yes we have

Quote:
There is also the possibility of using a PPC emulator for the handful of AOS4 titles that people do wish to run.


Of course but who write that ?
For now only words, but then you need coders ...

Quote:
Another option, although one I expect much less popular here, is to port MorphOS to x86 or Arm, get a license to call it AmigaOS 5 (or whatever), and go with that. But that may just confuse things even more.


You can't calling MorphOS --> AmigaOS, for obvious legal reason ...


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sundown 
Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Posted on 20-Dec-2011 7:32:04
#149 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Aug-2003
Posts: 5115
From: Right here...

@BigBentheAussie

Quote:
@sundown
Hyperion and CUSA are not at war. That is a fanboy fiction.
They're both just companies doing what they can with the IP at their disposal.
Collaboration is logical....perhaps....even inevitable. We'll see.

I agree, but I've been here to long to thing it can't happen.

Best of luck with your quest, from an os4 fanboy.


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vox 
Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Posted on 20-Dec-2011 7:35:37
#150 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3725
From: Belgrade, Serbia

Summary:

- Development of affordable PPC motherboard or better laptop
- Work with Hyperion in making an Office suite with it (funding SW development)
- Work with MOS and AROS team to have their OS ported too and decent PPC Linux
and there seems to be some Android too ...
or
Bring Natami to life and Natami PPC card to PCs and PPC Amigas

Au contraire, we can see that CommodoreUSA Amiga designs are getting ready ...

So this seems to be lonely entertainment section by Leo, who might have good intentions but .... CUSA FAQ still says "PPC is dead"

With hard decision, would redirect my SAM 460 funds to it, if CUSA really does it
(highly doubtable) and would even prepay it, even you don`t have exact record
of bringing promised. If others take the bite as well as CUSA.

Last edited by vox on 20-Dec-2011 at 07:36 AM.


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Nibunnoichi 
Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Posted on 20-Dec-2011 7:47:10
#151 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Nov-2004
Posts: 951
From: Roma + Lecco, Italia

Given that building case replicas seems like the thing you excel at, I'd like to see an Amiga 1000 case+keyboard replica but with the ability to host standard form factors boards... i've always dreamt about it.

Also, if you feel like funding an x64 port of AOS4 it'd be very welcomed too


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fishy_fis 
Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Posted on 20-Dec-2011 7:52:10
#152 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1865
From: Australia

Near as I can tell, the amiga community at large is happy being discontent and having things to complain about. Honestly, the head in the sand approach seems to be what they want. I love the platform, but the user base is so stubborn and self motivated that it deserves to be in the position its in.

The most logical and feasible choice would be to get some full time coders to work in collaboration with the existing AROS devs, but Im beyond caring these days. I understand why some people wouldn't care for that idea, but from a position of logic it'd be the way to go (massively available cheap, powerful hardware, only real player on the desktop, widest software support for the architecture, etc, etc.).

As for those suggesting a change of architecture would undo all the work done so far for the ppc based oses, that's a crock. The vast majority of software would just need a recompile, most of the hard work is already done.

Much like anything in this world things need to adapt to survive. What do people really think has more chance of surviving,.... a system that relies on things like a rare $3000 machine that has no benefits, and many downsides vs. a $300 machine. A $1200 machine that is almost as rare and obscure and is humbled by machines others would throw away,etc.

At the end of the day I simply dont care anymore. I'll continue to enjoy my amiga hobby, but the community is playing such a large part in the destruction of the system that there's no real hope for it to even become one of the bigger alternative systems.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 20-Dec-2011 at 07:54 AM.

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clusteruk 
Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Posted on 20-Dec-2011 7:53:11
#153 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2008
Posts: 1525
From: Marston Moretaine, England

@BigBenAussie

Well the way I see it is this, I know I may seem biased but thats life.

Aros is the most developed cross CPU architecture Amiga operating system we have, it supports x86, 64 bit, Arm, PPC and 68k already downloadable. The only thing it lacks is the right to use the Amiga name. It has full networking, wireless support, a good usb stack, fast Gallium 3d on NVidia and Intel GMA, a growing driver base, a pretty big development team at the moment and the support of a growing chunk of the community. Plus it is open source and therefore future proof and cannot be stopped at the whim of any company.

To make it fully viable it needs to have some of the development funded to help with the last remaining stability issues and the core system to be overseen with a full time developer or two. This will then allow multi core development work to quicken and further develop the memory management system.

Then the platform is irrelevant, you can support Natami with their system using the 68k version which will happen anyway, CUSA can have a high end Amiga x86 system and Arm can then be further developed to enable modern tablet and mobile supported devices at low cost. PPC AmigaOS4 can then share all code from Aros and put work back as well, and all players can have there own version of this with customised distributions enhanced to show there skills. They can even ship Commodore OS with Aros hosted to allow compatibility seamlessly while native OS work gets stronger and as reliable. I have tried this and it works well.

All of this is available NOW, just needing some help and the rights to the Amiga name which it deserves morally.

If you are serious as a company then I would assume talks with Hyperion are ongoing right now, not for the good of the community but because it makes business sense.

The reality is, what CUSA are trying to do is get the community behind them so they can sell to the wide world the brand that people remember fondly and with geek respect. What they do not want is to be seen to have the community against them. It is good they have realised this and even though they did not take up my offer to talk I hope they and Hyperion can talk.

Steve

Last edited by clusteruk on 20-Dec-2011 at 08:05 AM.


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Fairdinkem 
Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Posted on 20-Dec-2011 7:56:09
#154 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Feb-2010
Posts: 483
From: Victoria, Australia

@samo79

Quote:
Quote: There is also the possibility of using a PPC emulator for the handful of AOS4 titles that people do wish to run. Of course but who write that ? For now only words, but then you need coders ...


I'm sure a core i5 or core i7 is up to the task of emulation just like rosetta was used for PPC compatibility for MacOSX. If I am not mistaken AmigaOS4.x broke compatibility with classic Amiga software but was cured with emulation on some level.... I could be wrong?

As for who will write emulation software for AmigaOS4.x to eventuate on the x86 architecture in order to use the current software base? That is the whole point of such a collaboration of resources to make such an undertaking possible. If Aros has gotten to where it is without financial reward and little support imagine what money, resources and support can achieve.


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samo79 
Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Posted on 20-Dec-2011 7:59:27
#155 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 13-Feb-2003
Posts: 3389
From: Italy, Perugia

@fishy_fis

Yeah maybe, but just look at AROS, it's opensource, more or less already usable and it run on many architecture including x86 ...

Users ?
Software ?
How many ?

That's the reality at the end, i'm not sure that the responsable of this "not so good" situation is the Amiga community ...


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ddni 
Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Posted on 20-Dec-2011 8:04:52
#156 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 11-Jan-2007
Posts: 818
From: Northern Ireland

Quote:
Aros is the most developed cross CPU architecture Amiga operating system we have, it supports x86, 64 bit, Arm, PPC and 68k already downloadable. The only thing it lacks is the right to use the Amiga name. It has full networking, wireless support, a good usb stack, fast Gallium 3d on NVidia and Intel GMA, a growing driver base, a pretty big development team at the moment and the support of a growing chunk of the community. Plus it is open source and therefore future proof and cannot be stopped at the whim of any company.


A very well made argument for AROS!
Any sensible, forward looking business owner would at least engage in outline negotiations with Steve.

Quote:
Quote removed by DDNI as Steve removed his original comment.

Last edited by ddni on 20-Dec-2011 at 10:59 AM.


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Channel_Z 
Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Posted on 20-Dec-2011 8:05:42
#157 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2009
Posts: 305
From: Unknown

If you want something that is likely to sell 500 units, finance/subsidise the Natami project. Just look at how popular the C64 DTV was. They sold 70000 units the first DAY.

Last edited by Channel_Z on 20-Dec-2011 at 08:07 AM.

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clusteruk 
Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Posted on 20-Dec-2011 8:17:29
#158 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2008
Posts: 1525
From: Marston Moretaine, England

@ddni

Yes as soon as I read that bit again, it came across very badly and not how I meant it so I removed it.


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Fairdinkem 
Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Posted on 20-Dec-2011 8:17:29
#159 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Feb-2010
Posts: 483
From: Victoria, Australia

AROS is a dead end for any company because it can't be owned or controlled and is at the mercy of a open source development path with no real clear path or direction because every community developer has different ideas of what AROS must be or should become hence it's current state and for further emphasis the dogs breakfast that is Linux.


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clusteruk 
Re: Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community
Posted on 20-Dec-2011 8:21:48
#160 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2008
Posts: 1525
From: Marston Moretaine, England

@ Fairdinkem

Sorry I could not disagree more, Linux is the number 3 OS and it is open source. However, its strength and also Aros is that a snapshot can be taken, and locked down by a company to control their version and makes changes as appropriate. Code can be share back and forth at will and the Aros community will support this as long as the company contributes back into the root pool of code and does not just take.

The key thing is a strong base of work to start from.


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