@amigakit

I'm extremely happy that the new gdb is getting funded. Debuggers are not easy to do and without a financial incentive I could see that (extremely important) project getting pushed into the background.

About an AROS build: what about a kickstarter campaign for the EUR1800 needed to fund the project? It's not a preorder, and if the funding minimum is not reached no-one loses a penny.

So we could get enough for an AROS port then with those numbers if enough interested?

@codesmith
Hi
We took the viewpoint that the time wasted by manually debugging something like LibreOffice could be put to getting new GDB ported.

The 1800 EUR is just an estimate based on previous development costs - need to look into the financials carefully.

Last edited by amigakit on 29-Nov-2014 at 08:25 PM.

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Quote:

Poster: amigakit Date: 29-Nov-2014 12:35:01 180 users at 10 EUR development cost per copy sold = 1800 EUR which does come anywhere close to covering a new major version release for every platform - as an estimate you would be probably be looking at 500 copies on all platforms to break even, let alone make any profit. Remember: we are not talking about a straight forward recompile here, we are looking at adding a lot more new future functionality to PPaint and modernising it substantially. This requires investment.

Then it makes even less sense to build only amigaos versions by default. Also on the AROS version will you require 180 users for each arch? I mean compiling for different CPUs is just as complex as compiling for amigos Classic vs AROS.

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Look at how we handled audio evolution in aros land.
We preordered licenses so the author could start porting after that.
1000€ are a realistic target for a simple port.

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Let me clarify: I am not referring to a re-compilation, I am suggesting new features and further development.

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@terminills

Porting something as complex to a different platform (even a source-compatible one) is not as simple as simply changing a makefile and rebuilding. In practice even so-called 100% compatible platforms will have some subtle differences that require thorough testing and tweaks, and I don't think anyone is claiming that AROS x86 or AROS ARM is even close to 100% compatible with 68k OS3.x. Even if it builds on the first try, you're going to spend a couple of weeks finding things like gadget layout differences and just plain bugs that for some reason only manifest on one version but not another.

@amigakit


Unless you are adding custom features to either the morphos version or AROS version. Even though it will have newer features than what currently exists. it will merely be a port of a future version.

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@amigakit

Quote:

We took the viewpoint that the time wasted by manually debugging something like LibreOffice could be put to getting new GDB ported.

That makes perfect sense. Are you considering also making improvements to gdbserver? remote debugging is pretty much essential for things like games that take over the full screen and mouse/keyboard, and even for windowed software it's in many ways nicer.

Last edited by CodeSmith on 29-Nov-2014 at 09:37 PM.

@codesmith

I know. that is why I dropped aos4 support in my gutenprint port. AOS 3.1, morphos and AROS were easier actually they required almost no changes.

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"AROS is prolly illegal ~ Evert Carton" intentionally quoted out of context for dramatic effect

Excactly.
@Codesmith
Sometimes it is that easy.
Doom, abuse, quake and owb can be compiled as they are for arm and x86.
Everything else may relay to missing dependencies or overseen bugs in each aros branch.

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@terminills

We need *every* platform supported to take an equal burden proportion of the development costs. We cannot top load the development costs onto other platforms unfairly. If a platform cannot achieve these sales then it is not a serious commercial consideration.

Remember there is a more than just initial development: there is the costs of bug fixes and ongoing commercial customer support for each added platform.

180 units per platform will get to where we need to be to break even on this project - around 500 licences. With other software projects we have already exceeded this amount so it is viable.

@codesmith

Yes we hope to push forward with GDB support in future too. The main port is done, but SOBJs support is currently being added.

Last edited by amigakit on 29-Nov-2014 at 09:55 PM.
Last edited by amigakit on 29-Nov-2014 at 09:53 PM.
Last edited by amigakit on 29-Nov-2014 at 09:51 PM.

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I think, as suggested, an audio-evolution style pre-registering would prove the level of interest from the AROS community. In addition, I hope that this same community would would back this to show that there is an market for AROS versions of commercial software - I'd say we do not want to be disadvantaged compared to the Amiga's other decendents in this respect.

Oh, and following on from the sentiments earlier in this thread - if you could somehow, some way, get hold of PageStream and start to move it forwards, with a native AROS port, well, I think I might re-morgage the house for that...

Cheers,
Nigel.

Quote:

We need *every* platform supported to take an equal burden proportion of the development costs. We cannot top load the development costs onto other platforms unfairly. If a platform cannot achieve these sales then it is not a serious commercial consideration.

If you drop AROS or MorphOS out then remaining platforms must sell 250 each. Or if you drop both then an updated OS4 version must sell 500 copies to break even.

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You forgot Classic Amiga OS 3.x version

It will probably be the largest seller.

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Request for removal from Aminet is a pretty bold move. I don't applaude to this news. Thanks - not!

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@itix

That assumes that all platforms will sell equally well - it seems like A-EON are assuming they're going to sell a lot fewer AROS copies than classic or OS4. I must admit I'm a bit surprised that A-EON are not willing to use profits from one version to develop another - that sort of thing is done all the time. For example, MS now gives away Windows to OEMs who put it in tablets with small screens. Those copies are funded by the sales of other Windows SKUs (mostly professional and server). If they did not do that, they would not be able to compete with Android (which is itself funded by ad sales).

Last edited by CodeSmith on 29-Nov-2014 at 11:49 PM.

@CodeSmith

Well, putting in 100(s) of manhours into something you dont know the return on is risky buissniss.
We dont know how well the money balance are with their past and current projects, let alone planned future ones.
Ofcourse you could argue that if they risked investing into AROS and MorphOS version blindly, they would have a bigger impact area customerwise. But its not us footing the bill.

I got the sense from Matthews post that their goal is to have atleast break-even on their projects going forward. And making 0 profits doesnt leave anything for future investments (or running expenses).

Quote:

We preordered licenses so the author could start porting after that. 1000€ are a realistic target for a simple port.

Thinking that all users will buy, many of them can survive with the free version or are not interested on PPaint, or share the license... who knowns.

Hmm 1000€ is not much if you are sitting next to Trevor. If I would own ppaint I would pay that by myself in the hope to sell 100 licenses over the long journey till death.

I will release a premium version of aeros for some arm devices which allows execution of i386 binaries together with beta 10 for pi. The amiqube and odroid versions will cost a small extra fee but it wil include exagear a comercial x86 emu for arm. Registered users will get it for a small fee (based on the extra exagear license)
It would not hurt if ppaint would be part of aeros plus and premium and I would pay that amount for a new native version, not the classic.


Amigakit could also sell pi's plus aeros or other bundles. We don't need to be blood brothers for such deals.

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 30-Nov-2014 at 07:58 AM.
Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 30-Nov-2014 at 07:54 AM.

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@CodeSmith

Microsft are huge and can afford to run products at a loss for years without causing major damage to themselves.

A-EON are have a much smaller working capital. They are yet to find out if longterm software development for the Amiga community is viable. Everything needs to be considered very carefully.
If they can turn a profit on some platforms and not others it makes much more sense to re-invest money into new products for the successful platforms than to lose money investing in the platforms that aren't.

I do hope that they can sell at least their bare minumum for all four platforms.