@Wiffy

How? You just reinforced the point, nothing wrong with that at all.

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@Theodosius

I mean, had I realised you were already handling it, I wouldnt have edited.

@Wiffy

nah, tis

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@Theodosius

I would apologize, but I do not believe in insincerity.It was worth it.And for my first moderated post, a better topic could not have been found!

@Dandy
I told you I was not alone in my opinion.
I would also reply to your last post, but that would require 2 things:

a) You actually saying something you have not said before and

b)Actually caring about anything that you did say.

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@IonMane

I didn't direct either of you to apologise, just to tone down the personal attacks.

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@Dandy
I'm surprised you don't remember IonMane from all your previous battles in the Amiga Inc. forums Mr. buzzinhornet. The AW.net moderators have given all of us a clean slate to work from here. Let's all try to keep our sudden memory lapses and other tricks to a minimum and maybe we can all get along this time. IonMane, Rogue, myself and others will try hard to restrain ourselves but keep in mind we don't forget that easily.

Best of luck with your computing projects.

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ExecSG Team Lead

@Rogue

Quote:

Beg your pardon, but what kind of argument is that? With the same reasoning can you say that Windows XP needs a dongle (notably an internet connection or telephone for activation),

Actually, XP doesn't really need activation to function. Maybe there is some kind of support you can't get without activation, like SP updates, but I have an XP box here that is not connected to the Internet and has never been activated, and it seems to work just fine (for an XP box anyway). The machine it's on is a moderately spec'd system, but I could just as easily ditch it for something cheaper and XP would still work.

Quote:

or AmigaOS 3.x needs the original Amiga as a dongle.

Didn't the original Amiga have some kind of custom hardware which actually added some value to the system? Isn't there a technical reason why OS3.x and earlier could not run on other platforms that didn't have that custom hardware?

Quote:

You will need a Cyberstorm or Blizzard Dongle to run OS 4 on the classic. Where's the point?

I think his point is that the requirement of using an A1 is completely arbitrary. With WinXP, the requirement to activate is arbitrary, but it does not prevent the end user from running the OS on any hardware that will support XP - it is an *ownership* requirement, not a technial one. With classic Amiga, there was a benefit to using the custom hardware which locked you into AmigaOS - a technical requirement. With A1, there is no value added by having the lockdown firmware - it is an arbitrary requirement and it's only function is to prevent the user from using other hardware with OS4.

I'm not clear on why Hyperion seems to feel this is beneficial to Hyperion. As someone with a couple spare PPC systems lying around, I would be happy to purchase OS4 to try it out if it ran on something other than another system I would need to purchase. It seems to me that there is a market out there for OS4 *without* Eyetech, and based on your comments it seems Hyperion has no interest in this market. Now, you may say something about contracts and legalities in respect to Amiga Inc, but to someone is interested in OS4 and does not want to sink in $1000+ in tribute money to Eyetech...well, that's more than just a lost sale, isn't it? It's someone who won't be contributing to OS4 at all.

Quote:

Call that a dongle, I call it "system requirements", and guess what, you will find similar things on e.g. MacOS.

I think that when you talk about Apple and OS X, you're talking about a completely different situation. OS X is a proven OS, with massive support, running (perhaps even tied) to hardware that is readily available and also has massive support. With all due respects to Hyperion, I don't think Hyperion or Eyetech are even close to being in the same boat with Apple. It doesn't seem to take weeks or months to receive a system purchased from Apple. Apple seems to understand that there are users that might actually want to purchase their OS seperately - you can easily buy OS X without buying a Mac. Apple has very good hardware and software support. You can even get technical details about OS X without ever purchasing a product from Apple. I don't see either Hyperion or Eyetech offering anywhere near the kind of support you can get with Apple or companies supporting other platforms.

Do you feel that Eyetech and it's dealerships offer world-class support? Many people do not, to put it mildly. Some people feel that the systems offered by Eyetech don't provide superior value for the cost. Some of those are people who would *like* to get OS4 and run it on PPC hardware they already have. Do you blame people for feeling frustrated about that?

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Here for the whimpering end

@jorkany

Quote:

jorkany wrote: @Rogue Quote: Beg your pardon, but what kind of argument is that? With the same reasoning can you say that Windows XP needs a dongle (notably an internet connection or telephone for activation), Actually, XP doesn't really need activation to function. Maybe there is some kind of support you can't get without activation, like SP updates, but I have an XP box here that is not connected to the Internet and has never been activated, and it seems to work just fine (for an XP box anyway). The machine it's on is a moderately spec'd system, but I could just as easily ditch it for something cheaper and XP would still work.

just to clear up this misconception you seem to have. windows xp REQUIRES activation or else it deactivates after 30 days. it generates a number that is based on the hardware in the system. if too many of these change then winxp requires reactivation.

vendors however have the option to tie the os to the bios of the system and bypass the activation. this allows winxp to be more user friendly than the retail version. this is the version that most people have. if installed on a non bios tied mb it will require activation though i have not tried to activate a copy of win xp like this.

the third version of win xp is the corporate version which does not require activation at all. this version is not tied to the hardware or bios.

Last edited by jkirk on 02-Jun-2005 at 06:00 PM.

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Win•dows: n. A thirty-two bit extension and graphical shell to a sixteen-bit patch to an eight-bit operating system originally coded for a four-bit microprocessor which was written by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition.

@jorkany

Quote:

I'm not clear on why Hyperion seems to feel this is beneficial to Hyperion.

restricting the compatible hardware allows hyperion to focus on certain drivers and support instead of trying to support everything. reducing cost to port and time to port. this is the same approach microsoft used when it introduced the media center version of xp. this shortened their development time but required that you buy a media center certified system to get it.

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Win•dows: n. A thirty-two bit extension and graphical shell to a sixteen-bit patch to an eight-bit operating system originally coded for a four-bit microprocessor which was written by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition.

@jorkany

Quote:

Actually, XP doesn't really need activation to function. Maybe there is some kind of support you can't get without activation, like SP updates, but I have an XP box here that is not connected to the Internet and has never been activated, and it seems to work just fine (for an XP box anyway). The machine it's on is a moderately spec'd system, but I could just as easily ditch it for something cheaper and XP would still work.

Dunno. My understanding is that it must be activated or will cease to function after a month. Don't want to discuss that, though.
Maybe it was a bad example, let's just say you need a CD-ROM drive as Dongle because it is no longer delivered on floppy disks. Whatever. Certain programs and OSes have specific hardware requirements, and if someone insists on splitting hair, yes, that can be called a dongle.

I prefer to call it "hardware requirements".

Quote:

Didn't the original Amiga have some kind of custom hardware which actually added some value to the system? Isn't there a technical reason why OS3.x and earlier could not run on other platforms that didn't have that custom hardware?

Every computer system is "custom hardware", since you cannot run AmigaOS on your washing machine or your VCR. I don't see the point.

Quote:

I think his point is that the requirement of using an A1 is completely arbitrary.

Not at all. It is called "hardware requirement". You will need a PowerPC card to run OS 4 on a classic, like it or not. You may call this "completely arbitrary" as well. I call it a design decision. So no, the requirement of using an A1 is not arbitrary. It doesn't run on a Mac either. I still fail to see the point - you need a Mac to run MacOS (unless you count emulators like MOL).

Quote:

With A1, there is no value added by having the lockdown firmware - it is an arbitrary requirement and it's only function is to prevent the user from using other hardware with OS4.

That is complete and utter nonsense. The ability to run OS 4 on a hardware has absolutely nothing to do with the firmware, that is one of those idiotic rumours that certain people are spreading. A linux kernel build for an x86 CPU will only run on an x86 CPU; that is no arbitrary requirement, but a purely technical one, because a Zilog Z80 does not run x86 code.

AmigaOS 4.0 which you find on the prerelease CD only runs on the A1 hardware because it ties, at certain points, directly to the hardware - most notably the HAL (which contains code for such things as an interrupt controller, PCI controller, IDE, network, you name it). This thing does not run on a Mac, even if you could somehow make it to load, and that doesn't have a frelling thing to do with any "lockout" in the firmware.

You can go ahead and sign any petition to "free the AmigaOS", but as I pointed out before, it will take roughly a month to adapt OS 4 to a different hardware, and that does not mean writing more "lockout code" or any such nonsense - it is because the kernel and device drivers need to be adapted to work on a new mainboard, new interrupt controller, new IDE controller, new northbridge, new southbridge, you name it. Anyone claiming otherwise does not know the most basic principles of computing - or why do you think Intent/AmigaAnywhere advertises as "run everywhere" if it where that easy?

Quote:

I'm not clear on why Hyperion seems to feel this is beneficial to Hyperion.

I think I have said in the past that our license agreement with Amiga only covers the current targets for AmigaOS 4.0, which are classics and AmigaOne. I don't really see where the problem is to understand that.

Quote:

As someone with a couple spare PPC systems lying around, I would be happy to purchase OS4 to try it out if it ran on something other than another system I would need to purchase

I have a Mac and a POP mainboard lying around - and? None of them runs OS 4. If you think that is because of the "lockout firmware", I need to disappoint you. It does not run on the POP mainboard because the thing uses a CPC700 chipset. In case you didn't know, this doesn't look anything like the Articia, it doesn't even look anything like a VIA southbridge, and that is a purely technical reason why OS 4 DOES NOT WORK ON IT.

Quote:

It seems to me that there is a market out there for OS4 *without* Eyetech, and based on your comments it seems Hyperion has no interest in this market

Pardon me, what market? The "I have a few PPC boards lying around" market? That hardly qualifies. Hyperion has repeatedly stated that our goal is to place OS 4 in the embedded market, namely for STB's, kiosk systems, point-of-sales and so on.

As it is now, it runs on all varieties of the AmigaOne, the classic machines with PPC accelerators (unreleased) and one so far undisclosed platform. For support reasons, the classic version will only be released "when it's done". We will review other possibilities afterwards. We will certainly *not* invest any time to make it run on any PPC board you might have lying around, because plainly, you seem to underestimate the effort needed to add a supported platform. You seem to think that this "lockout firmware" is the only reason to prevent it from magically running on other hardware.

Quote:

Now, you may say something about contracts and legalities in respect to Amiga Inc, but to someone is interested in OS4 and does not want to sink in $1000+ in tribute money to Eyetech...well, that's more than just a lost sale, isn't it? It's someone who won't be contributing to OS4 at all.

Beg your pardon? Are you suggesting that ignoring legalities and contracts is a valid option? Not where I come from.

Quote:

I think that when you talk about Apple and OS X, you're talking about a completely different situation. OS X is a proven OS, with massive support, running (perhaps even tied) to hardware that is readily available and also has massive support.

"perhaps even tied"? I invite you to try running it on a different hardware platform. For example, the AmigaOne or the Pegasos. Do you think that it will? Well, I have news for you - it won't. You need some emulation like MOL to make it run. Why that? Because MacOS X never heard about an Articia S or a Discovery northbridge. Do you insist that this is caused by "lockdown firmware" in Apple's machines? I don't think so.

Quote:

. It doesn't seem to take weeks or months to receive a system purchased from Apple. Apple seems to understand that there are users that might actually want to purchase their OS seperately - you can easily buy OS X without buying a Mac

That is nonsense. You can buy MacOS separately, but can you buy it for non-Apple hardware? No you can't. You can buy it separately because earlier Macs where delivered with OS 9, and because you don't get a free upgrade from e.g. 10.2 to 10.3 or 10.4. You cannot buy OS X for the Pegasos, or for the AmigaOne, or for the Zliog Z80. Furthermore, the license forbids you to run in on anything else but a Mac.

So, why do you want to be able to buy AmigaOS 4.0 separately? Did you get in the meantime that it WILL NOT MAGICALLY RUN on that "few PPC mainboards" you have lying around? You can insert the OS 4 CD into any CD-ROM drive, but that doesn't help you. It will only work on the AmigaOne. it will not work on the classic, not because your favourite lockdown firmware, but because it only runs on the AmigaOne.

Quote:

You can even get technical details about OS X without ever purchasing a product from Apple. I don't see either Hyperion or Eyetech offering anywhere near the kind of support you can get with Apple or companies supporting other platforms.

Maybe (and I am just guessing, I don't have any numbers ready) this is because Apple has a slightly bigger budget than Hyperion?

But that is completely irrelevant. In the end, Apple does only support its own hardware. Period. Try to contact Apple tech support and say that you have trouble running Quicktime 7 on MOL, and see the reaction.

Quote:

Do you feel that Eyetech and it's dealerships offer world-class support?

I don't see what this has got to do with it. If you don't want to buy hardware from Eyetech, don't do so. If you don't want to buy Apple hardware, don't do so.

If you don't buy an AmigaOne, there is no way you are going to run AmigaOS at the moment. If you don't buy an Apple machine, there is no way to run OS X at the moment. Unlike with Apple, this is going to change. There is no way that Apple will ever support the "few PPC boards" you might have lying around.

Quote:

Some of those are people who would *like* to get OS4 and run it on PPC hardware they already have.

You cannot get MacOS X either to run it on PPC hardware you already have.

Eventually, AmigaOS 4.0 *will* be available for the classic PowerPC-equipped machines as well (no 68k and no Coldfire version, sorry). Eventually, most notably "when it's done". We have a pre-release out there fore AmigaOne owners, because they would otherwise not be able to run any sort of AmigaOS on their machine. It is extremely unlikely that there will be a pre-release for the classics.

Quote:

Do you blame people for feeling frustrated about that?

No, can't blame them. However, don't blame me for that. It took as long as it needed to take.

_________________
Seriously, if you want to contact me do not bother sending me a PM here. Write me a mail

@Rogue
Wow- I think that is (seriously) the longest post I've seen you do!

I know Jorkany obviously touched a nerve there, and obviously people perhaps like him (and Nickman, others?) are frustrated for lack of a way to run OS4, but people, we ARE at least (finally?) getting close.

Bear in mind, most software projects can hit 60-90% relatively quickly, but in _many_ of them, the last 10% can take a disproportionate amount of time. Additionally, quite a few new features have gone into OS '4.0' that were originally slated for much further down the line.

While I personally would _really_ like to see OS4 ported to perhaps a pair of specific Mac systems (any G3 or G4 powerbook, followed by even a single desktop), Hyperion doesn't have a license to do so, nor should they be seriously considering it at the moment untile OS4 final makes it out the door...which will also bring the classic/PPC OS4 release. I'm sure there are plenty of people waiting on that, but think of the support implications here while still trying to get a final product out the door- there are _many_ more variations of classic hardware than ANY A1 in existence today, and even if Hyperion was to release the classic/PPC version 'without any warrantee of any kind, and no support' as an official statement, it wouldn't stop people from complaining about it when inevitably problems were found. Let them focus at the task in hand 'until it's done,' and THEN they can release the classic/PPC version, and actually be able to handle any issues as they come up at that time.

Quote:

If you don't buy an AmigaOne, there is no way you are going to run AmigaOS at the moment. If you don't buy an Apple machine, there is no way to run OS X at the moment. Unlike with Apple, this is going to change.

Hmm. That last sentence is very interesting, damn you (saying damn you because I know we won't get any more info on it right now.. ) I do look forward to hearing about it though.

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Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@wegster

Quote:

Wow- I think that is (seriously) the longest post I've seen you do!

It surely demonstrate that I had too much time today...

Quote:

I know Jorkany obviously touched a nerve there,

It is especially about the nonsense that the firmware is the only thing that holds anyone back from using OS 4 on any system on the planet. I've seen any number of variations on that theme (including claims that the "dongle chip" would make the AmigaOne so expensive), and I really can't stand it. I also can't stand this (IMO, sorry if I insult someone with that) utterly nonsensical petition for "AmigaOS on POP hardware", because everybody and his brother seems to think that there is no technical reason that OS 4 does not run on Mac hardware.

Quote:

even if Hyperion was to release the classic/PPC version 'without any warrantee of any kind, and no support' as an official statement, it wouldn't stop people from complaining about it when inevitably problems were found

Absolutely. We're already seeing a lot of support queries from the A1 users, and I certainly don't want to see what happens when the classic version comes out. Given the fact that many CSPPC or Blizzard systems already have hardware faults, non-working RAM, and a myriad of different bus boards, expansions, and what have you, I can only say that the idea of releasing a classic version even "when it's done" is going to be a nightmare.

Quote:

Hmm. That last sentence is very interesting, damn you (saying damn you because I know we won't get any more info on it right now.. ) I do look forward to hearing about it though.

Ugh, you are reading too much into that sentences. I was merely referring to the fact that we will eventually release the classic version

Of course, it was never planned to only run on a single hardware platform. But at this time, there is not going to be any announcement about that. Planned for the immediate 4.0 release are AmigaOne and classic systems.

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Seriously, if you want to contact me do not bother sending me a PM here. Write me a mail

@Rogue

very computer system is "custom hardware", since you cannot run AmigaOS on your washing machine or your VCR. I don't see the point.


Ok, so we can scrap washing machine and VCR from the "what is the mysterie devive that runs OS4" list..

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Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
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@Seer

Quote:

Ok, so we can scrap washing machine and VCR from the "what is the mysterie devive that runs OS4" list..

Sure. If you want I can tell you what the device is. The mystery hardware device is a $%!§... ***javascript error***

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Seriously, if you want to contact me do not bother sending me a PM here. Write me a mail

@Rogue

Damn tose modern Internet technologies.. Ya know, back in the old days when you only had plain HTML.....

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Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
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@Rogue

Quote:

It surely demonstrate that I had too much time today...

Finished OS4 then have you?


Just having a laugh mate, you and your team are great guys, we have waited this long, another when it's done or two isn't gonna hurt anyone!

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Amiga A1200, 3.1 ROMs, Blizzard 1230 MKIV 64MB & FPU, 4GB DoM SSD, Workbench 3.1

@jorkany

Quote:

Actually, XP doesn't really need activation to function. Maybe there is some kind of support you can't get without activation, like SP updates, but I have an XP box here that is not connected to the Internet and has never been activated, and it seems to work just fine (for an XP box anyway).

Huh? It must be hacked then. Unless you have had it pre-installed when you bought your PC - ALL copies of Win XP NEED activation after 30 days otherwise they cease to function.

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Sam

@-Sam-

Huh? It must be hacked then. Unless you have had it pre-installed when you bought your PC

Nope. Corperate Edition (XP / Server 2003) don't need activation.

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Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
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@Rogue

You wrote:

Quote:

.....go to Amiga for any coupon issues, Hyperion had nothing to do with it, etc), but he always brings it up again.

I know you are doing your best in this thread to keep a level head and not get sidetracked by the obvious flamebait but here goes anyway

Hyperion and AmigaInc *were* partners at the time. it was sometime before all of AmigaInc's dealings were revealed as scam'ola. I believe this is why the association keeps being made and clearly Hyperion did not distance themselves from it quickly (people still believed in the 'partnership' at the time but to me partnership means you consult your partners when making statements on things that affect them) Care to comment?

Steve

Last edited by JKD on 02-Jun-2005 at 10:40 PM.

@JKD

Quote:

to me partnership means you consult your partners when making statements on things that affect them

Maybe it wouldn't have affected them though? I'd have thought that the coupon scheme would have worked by having A inc redeem Hyperion $50 for each coupon they recieved - they'd be in the same position as if people had bought the OS. Even if there was consultation it could have just been along the lines of "we'll be buying people copies of OS4, you just need to send us these coupons and we'll pay you. OK?". Perhaps more likely, the scheme could have operated via dealers, in which they wouldn't have made any difference whatsoever to Hyperion, who would receive money from dealers who had redeemed the coupons.

The above's pure conjecture, of course, but it's just shows how the coupon deal needen't have really had anything to do with Hyperion - like other people, I think that the whole thing has nothing to do with them now, and they shouldn't have to comment on it...

Technically, I belive that the coupons refer to the final version of OS4, not pre-release (which wasn't thought of then), although I don't have one to check the working. If that's the case then things could be going to Amiga's plan, although I think the chances of that are fairly slim

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