@OlafS25

I don't really see it that way.Cost of developing Vampire/Apollo
if they were developed by professional company and IT staff
then the cost would be catastrophic.

Production is different case.Majsta and Kipper do it by themselves
(manual labor lol) and it takes time and it can't be cheaper then
ordering 1000 x all components needed (buying many drops price)
and mass production could be as cheap too.

Besides , I see no problem there , any extra profit can be shared
so I see no opposed interests.

As for the OS , people tend to buy hardware (things they can touch)
more than software but I agree some profit could be made

Last edited by blizz1220 on 26-Dec-2015 at 11:03 AM.

@bison

Quote:

bison wrote: @BigD Quote: I wish people would shut up about this 'when it's done' nonsense. It's not nonsense. There are four basic release strategies in the practice of software engineering: 1. Release on a predetermined date, regardless of the functional state of the software. 2. Release when the functional state of the software reaches a certain level, regardless of the date. 3. Start out with strategy 1 and revert to strategy 2 when it becomes apparent that the software is too buggy for general release. 4. Start out with strategy 2 and revert to strategy 1 when it becomes apparent that the software will not be viable unless released soon. I've worked with project managers that seem to think 1 and 2 are not mutually exclusive, but as a group project managers are some of the most delusional people I have worked with. (Which is not to say that there aren't any good ones -- there are a few.)

I had/have a different experience. For a specific product release, a list of features is scheduled, according to the time for the release. The list of features comes from a confrontation between product managers and developers, according to realistic goals that can be achieved.

Of course, a product can fail to be released, albeit they are really rare birds. A showstopper can be represented by some legal issue, but it's really unlikely it's caused by a functional bug.

In short: there's a pre-analysis which brings the list of features and the schedule, and a release is usually respected.


@bison

Quote:

bison wrote: @thinkchip Quote: I wonder how many people would prefer new modern features to compatibility. I think I would. Spending excessive amounts of effort on compatibility seems like backwards thinking when you don't have the resources for it anyway. Probably a lot of people would say if you don't have compatibility then it isn't Amiga OS anymore; it's something else. I agree with all of this. There isn't much old Amiga software worth maintaining compatibility with other than some classic games, and these work with emulation, so no problem there. I'm all for taking the best concepts of Amiga and making something new.

Indeed. However you cannot call it Amiga o.s. anymore, but "Amiga-inspired" o.s., since some features like memory protection kill the foundation of the platform.
Quote:

This is especially true of UIs. I think the reason there are so many is because none of them are very good. Windows 10 and KDE 5 are minor refinements on what has been done for the past 20 years.

Here I don't agree. Windows 8 brought a completely different UI, whereas Windows 10 redefined it. Windows 8 was also the tentative to unify all interfaces, and Windows 10 with it's new UniversalApps concept gave a concrete tool to developers for easily achieving it.
Quote:

There's room for improvement with Workbench too, but somehow it got the fundamentals right 30 years ago, while Windows hasn't. Case in point: there's still no way to lower a window in Windows. Cascading window placement, alt-tab window cycling, and minimization were all attempts at working around this shortcoming. While they are useful in there own way (especially alt-tab), none of them are as effective as a simple, direct means to lower a window.

Maybe I misunderstood the meaning of lowering a window, but I think it's already possible, and from long time. Can you better clarify?


@blizz1220

Quote:

blizz1220 wrote: Seems like a sensitive topic so I'll state "in my opinion" first Price of Widows makes up to-from 20-50% of end price for Windows licensed machine in shop

Absolutely no. Windows OEM licences range from $10 to $40, according to the specific version of the o.s. (from Home to Ultimate edition). Maybe the Starter edition is even much less than $10. And the IoT version is free.
Quote:

so if that logic is applied then Hyperion would have to sell OS4 for about 1000 $ so it can hire developers to do things faster but I doubt that would go too well.

Well, Windows offers A BIT more of OS4 and, in general, of any post-Amiga o.s..

@cdimauro

Aren't those upgrade prices ? Windows 7 CD still costs around
50 Eur-100 USD here and servers are that x 4 at least.

Apart from that Microsoft has courses , trainings , schools etc as
additional source of revenue and driver situation is much better
because if new piece of hardware doesn't have Windows driver
manufacturer will make one.

compare os4 to windows situation is trolly
M$ have 1.000 programmers only on the os plus all the manifacture company who make drivers for it...
os4 have 10 programners for different machine and architecture (pegasos, sam, classic , amigaone, x1000,tabor, x5000)
same is for other amiga sons os... not better than os4.

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@cdimauro

Quote:

Windows OEM licences range from $10 to $40, according to the specific version of the o.s.

Hmmm... In calendar 3Q15, Windows OEM revenue was just around $3 billion. PC shipments during that same quarter were just under 74 million total, or around 68 million once you remove Apple's contribution (because Apple is not an OEM customer for Windows).

$3 billion divided by 68 million is an average of $44 Windows OEM revenue per non-Apple PC sold.

With average PC selling price below $400 (and probably significantly below $400 for non-Apple PCs), the average cost at the point where Windows OEM revenue comes in (i.e. prior to profit margins for the OEM themselves, as well as whatever chain of vendors/merchants the PC goes through prior to being sold to a consumer) may well be below $300. In other words, on average the Windows OEM license probably accounts for at least 15% of the cost-of-goods when buying a Windows PC.

@cdimauro

Quote:

Here I don't agree. Windows 8 brought a completely different UI, whereas Windows 10 redefined it.

Yeah, I actually forgot about Windows 8. I mentally skipped from Windows 7 to Windows 10.

I would put Windows 8 in the same category of "convergence" interfaces as Gnome 3 and Ubuntu Unity. They work fine on a phones and game consoles, but are sub-optimal on desktop systems. I know a guy who used Unity for two years before he decided that he didn't like it. I gave up on it in far less time and switched from Ubuntu to Linux Mint.

Microsoft had to revert to a more conventional UI to maintain their market share. Ubuntu has no such constraint: they can play second fiddle to Linux Mint for as long as they like.

Quote:

Maybe I misunderstood the meaning of lowering a window, but I think it's already possible, and from long time. Can you better clarify?

Lowering a window is to move it to the bottom of the stacking order. This is possible on AmigaOS using the depth gadget, and on most X11 window managers by clicking the title bar with the middle mouse button. As far as I know there is no way to do this in any version of Windows or OS X -- the only way to get at windows that are completely obscured on these systems it to minimize windows on top, alt-tab to the obscured window, try to find it on the task bar, etc.

I'm sure this feature was omitted to avoid confusing novice users, but window lowering should at least be an option. Microsoft and Apple seem to assume that their users are incapable of learning new things.

_________________
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@bison

Quote:

Lowering a window is to move it to the bottom of the stacking order. This is possible on AmigaOS using the depth gadget, and on most X11 window managers by clicking the title bar with the middle mouse button. As far as I know there is no way to do this in any version of Windows or OS X -- the only way to get at windows that are completely obscured on these systems it to minimize windows on top, alt-tab to the obscured window, try to find it on the task bar, etc.

In Windows you can use Alt+Esc to send window back.

_________________
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@itix

My recollection (from a long time ago) is that alt-esc cycles windows in the order they were opened, similar to alt-tab but without backtracking when the alt key is released.

_________________
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@itix

Useless, window goes inactive or gadget lose focus.

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@NutsAboutAmiga & bison

Works here on Windows 7. The top most window is sent back and next window in the z order is activated.

Last edited by itix on 28-Dec-2015 at 07:22 AM.

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@thinkchip

What's OS4.2?

I thought your gift was the OS4.2 list? Your gift is as good as OS4.2 itself. It doesn't exist!

In any case I don't think even a list would be a good present. For Christmas Mr. Santa I would like a list of presents that I want. But not the presents, I don't need them, I just want the list. Yeah right!

"GCC 5.3.0 is now available"

Nice.
So, the compiler should not limit the full use of modern PPC chips any more...
(perhaps old news but new to me)

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@itix

Now I'm going to have to find someone with a Windows system so I can try this.

Last edited by bison on 28-Dec-2015 at 03:16 PM.

_________________
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@blizz1220

Quote:

blizz1220 wrote: @cdimauro Aren't those upgrade prices ? Windows 7 CD still costs around 50 Eur-100 USD here and servers are that x 4 at least.

No, I wasn't talking about the upgrade licenses, but the regular ones.

But see umisef's comment.
Quote:

Apart from that Microsoft has courses , trainings , schools etc as additional source of revenue

I don't think that they are reported as part of the OEM revenues.
Quote:

and driver situation is much better because if new piece of hardware doesn't have Windows driver manufacturer will make one.

Usually the manufacturer provides the driver to Microsoft.


@tlosm

Quote:

tlosm wrote: compare os4 to windows situation is trolly M$ have 1.000 programmers only on the os plus all the manifacture company who make drivers for it... os4 have 10 programners for different machine and architecture (pegasos, sam, classic , amigaone, x1000,tabor, x5000) same is for other amiga sons os... not better than os4.

First, I wasn't the one which compared Windows and OS4.

Second, both Windows and OS4 are commercial products.

Third, and most important, usually are trolls which invoke trolling to others, bringing a thread in a flame.

This is a forum, and by definition it was/is made for talking, hopefully in a civil way. If you don't like what other users say, you are free to do NOT read what they say and, much better, AVOID replying if the purpose is to create a flame.

Of course, you're free to do it, as usual, in your Italian forum: the trolls' paradise...


@umisef

Quote:

umisef wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Windows OEM licences range from $10 to $40, according to the specific version of the o.s. Hmmm... In calendar 3Q15, Windows OEM revenue was just around $3 billion. PC shipments during that same quarter were just under 74 million total, or around 68 million once you remove Apple's contribution (because Apple is not an OEM customer for Windows). $3 billion divided by 68 million is an average of $44 Windows OEM revenue per non-Apple PC sold. With average PC selling price below $400 (and probably significantly below $400 for non-Apple PCs), the average cost at the point where Windows OEM revenue comes in (i.e. prior to profit margins for the OEM themselves, as well as whatever chain of vendors/merchants the PC goes through prior to being sold to a consumer) may well be below $300. In other words, on average the Windows OEM license probably accounts for at least 15% of the cost-of-goods when buying a Windows PC.

I reported what I remembered from a new which I read time ago in an Italian portal, but unfortunately I wasn't able to find it anymore.

Anyway, the numbers that you reported and your comment speak clearly how the situation is. I regret from what I've talked before.


@bison

Quote:

bison wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Maybe I misunderstood the meaning of lowering a window, but I think it's already possible, and from long time. Can you better clarify? Lowering a window is to move it to the bottom of the stacking order. This is possible on AmigaOS using the depth gadget, and on most X11 window managers by clicking the title bar with the middle mouse button. As far as I know there is no way to do this in any version of Windows or OS X -- the only way to get at windows that are completely obscured on these systems it to minimize windows on top, alt-tab to the obscured window, try to find it on the task bar, etc. I'm sure this feature was omitted to avoid confusing novice users, but window lowering should at least be an option. Microsoft and Apple seem to assume that their users are incapable of learning new things.

As itix reported, there's Alt-Esc to do the same (and it works! No focus lost), albeit I greatly prefer to have ad-hoc buttons for this feature, like the Amiga o.s. introduced.

The problem here is that users my get confused because of the many buttons.

@pavlor

Quote:

I will be in my early 50s then. I can wait.

I'll be in my early 100s. That'll make it worth the wait!

@TrevorDick

Quote:

The X5000 already has working Debian and SliTaz Linux PowerPC ports and we expect it will support many other PowerPC Linux distributions in the future. Likewise, I have always wanted to see MorphOS and AROS running on our hardware and it's good to see this finally coming to fruition.

June, 2015 Source

Since it's clear any statement regarding AmigaOS 4.x on X5000 has to come from Hyperion and since I've seen mention of the other operating systems in other threads...

Would it be possible to update the progress on those other operating systems running on X5000 given the interest expressed both from others and yourself?

#6

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@number6

Quote:

Would it be possible to update the progress on those other operating systems running on X5000 given the interest expressed both from others and yourself?

if you be a good boy and i will have more free time i will make a linux running video on my X5000

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MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
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@thread

And the Grinch said, "Sorry kids, no progress this year. Here's your lump of coal."

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@cdimauro

Quote:

As itix reported, there's Alt-Esc to do the same (and it works! No focus lost),

I got a new system yesterday (Asus laptop) and had the opportunity to try this out before replacing Windows with Linux Mint.

I've always thought of this feature as window cycling with no backtracking, but if you do it a single time it does lower the top window and give focus to the next highest window on the stack.

Quote:

albeit I greatly prefer to have ad-hoc buttons for this feature, like the Amiga o.s. introduced.

I think Amiga really did introduce this feature. Mac didn't have it, and Windows didn't even have overlapping windows at the time. There may have been an X10 window manager with this feature, but I don't think so.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

@bison: regarding the Mac, I never saw it. The first Mac that I used was a plus (with 512KB of memory), and I don't remember any such button.

For X11, well, it's too much for my memory. I had some experience around 1994-96 with HP Apollo, Sun, and IRIS graphic workstations, but I don't remember any lower button.