If you are not an musican this not an interesting topic for you, hehe. If your musican listen and allso I need help ;)

Ok first, now that I'm at home, I pluged in my Sam to my Audio Hardware, I mean Digital Studio processors. What I can say is that Hyperion must have changed something in the hole AHI Setup course now I got full digital dynamic on my RCA outputs, now it hits -0 db level like I have mastered my sound, on Os4.1 I only had -6db, perhabs you remember my old topic here on AW about that problem, seems to be gone now, juppie :O))

Second is, I have an Juli@ Soundcard.... yes my Sam was away for several motn for exchanging to a new board. So I cannot remember if I had 24bit Audio playback modes before I installed OS4.1 Update 1. I mean I had 16bit modes and two 24bit modes in AHI PRefs were I could choose from, now I only see 16bit modes... perhabs I'm stupid or something is missing, help!! ;)))

@Psycreator

Quote:

Second is, I have an Juli@ Soundcard.... yes my Sam was away for several motn for exchanging to a new board. So I cannot remember if I had 24bit Audio playback modes before I installed OS4.1 Update 1. I mean I had 16bit modes and two 24bit modes in AHI PRefs were I could choose from, now I only see 16bit modes... perhabs I'm stupid or something is missing, help!! ;)))

I don't remeber there being 24bit output modes, but you can switch between 16 and 24 input modes (line in). Not sure if there is naything that handles 24bit though, software wise.

Last edited by broadblues on 06-Mar-2010 at 03:30 PM.

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BroadBlues On Blues BroadBlues On Amiga Walker Broad

@broadblues
Yes Inputs can be allso 24bit.. must test them too now ;))) but Output seems strange, or I forgot something. Could it be that the envyht driver always works with 24bit output when the sound goes trough digital out even when in AHI the settings are on 16bit?

Ok... the situation changed much. I tested arround a little bit further. The -6db bug is not gone, all programms and Audio tools which are not TuneNet have the -6db bug.
To make it simple to understand course my english is so bad, I recorded a simple Synth Demo against -0db peak level which is the maximum LEvel Digital can get for anybody who did not know that yet ;)) I Play back the file with TuneNet and anything is fine, loud as it should be and my levelmeter shows full volume Analoug and Digital. The Same file in Samplemanager, SoundFX, Mikytracker or even in Workbenchs Sound Prefs Tool.... -6db volume and you can hear that it is a lot more quiet then before so it is not an bug of my equipment.
The question now is, what did the coder of Tunenet made better then all other Developer of other tools so he got correct Volume output in his programm.
In my opinion it is no envyht driver problem, or Ahi problem in general.. somewhere has to be a bug but where? And I do not think it is a AHI Prefs bug, course when I change AHI Modes in my programms nothing really happens.. it is only taht -6db problem. Strange is Tunenet allso uses AHI Modes defined over AHI Prefs but anything works fine there. ####, please test for yourself it'S true.

@Psycreator

THis intrigues me, I don't see this here. I reported a bug in Tunenet where it played mp3 files at -6db and it was fixed. Thus it now plays at full volume.

Anything that uses SDL playes at -6db as far as I can tell, but not SDL apps like AudioEvolution plays at full volume (that was the reference for tunenet playing quieter....)

SFX always play full volume too IIRC.

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BroadBlues On Blues BroadBlues On Amiga Walker Broad

@broadblues
Ähm, I allready said that Tunenet is the only here with correct output, I know that the older versions of it did indeed play at -6db and now it is fine.
I do not have Audio Evolution or other pro tools. But SoundFX has the same problem, I got it here for testing. SoundFX does not use predefined Audio modes made with AHI Prefs, it uses AHI Direct somehow it seems, but allso -6db playback. In my opinion the Tunenet Coder seems to be the only one who knows how to fix this global bug.
Or Hyperion did oversee something while compiling AHI stuff... I do not know I am no coder, perhabs the OS4.1 SDK gives some clues about it?
But now we got a reference for comparing to other tools, and Tunenet seems to be the only programm with correct playback I found so far.... now any other programm must get to the same level and all is fine.

Last edited by Psycreator on 06-Mar-2010 at 05:13 PM.

@Psycreator

A couple of things to note:

1) AHI uses linear panning/balance, which means that in the center, you will get -6dB. If an app uses panning, this is what you will get. Note that apps like Audio Evolution need panning, so they will have this problem.

2) When using AHI Hifi modes, mixing is done in 32-bit and sent as 32-bit data to the driver. The Envy24HT driver uses that to output at 24-bit (always).

3) For the Envy24/Envy24HT, I've made 16-bit and 24-bit inputs (called Line-in 16-bit, Line-in 24-bit etc.). There is unfortunately no app that can handle 24-bit recording.

4) Just FYI: Hyperion does not make drivers or AHI, it's a third party effort by Martin Blom (AHI) and the AHI driver writers (of which I've made the Envy24/HT drivers).

Hope this helps.

Last edited by DaveAE on 07-Mar-2010 at 11:06 AM.

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Audio Evolution
http://www.audio-evolution.com

@DaveAE
No helps not, makes it even worster than before ;)
I mean I never had such problems for years with the same Apps on my old A4000T with Repulse Soundcard. And normaly with Panning on Stereo Channels, the Center is normal volume while panning the sides are quieter about -3db. Does not make sense at all to have the centers -6db course you can't raise the dynamic over the 0db limit. And the -6db thing is to much headroom to be usefull for doing music. It'S like running against a Compressor/limiter without ratio, sounds #### in my opinion and while mastering sounds you can't find the best volume settings course the -6db limit is always there.
Strange is allso that you can record on normal level like it should, only playback is broken this way. But good to know the Tunenet Developer hacked arround this limit somehow.. now it should be global and all is fine ;))
I cannot find an email address to that Tunenet Developer, but if you got tell him greets form me and that he did a good job making a replay routine which has the right taste for musicans and the playback routines are fantastic.
But does not solve the problem at all ;) The AHI Developer should make an update to AHI then, where ppl like me who need full dynamic for listening can switch between consumer and studio mode somehow, something must change ;)) my opinion

I want my full Dynamic :.....(((((

BY the way the EnvyHT drivers are great, very stable even on slow SAM Board. And with Tunenet I can have full Dynamic playback, works perfect.

@Psycreator

I meant if it helped explaining only!

I agree on all points, but there's little chance AHI will get updated.

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Audio Evolution
http://www.audio-evolution.com

@DaveAE

Forgive my aggressions, but I feel f-u.c-k.e-d against the wall. I would only like to do music again on my expensive cool Juli@ like it's made for. Spend Thousands of Euro for cool Hardware over the years and now only want my 6db dynamic so I can hear what is going on with the sound.. args ;))
When those 6db bug is wanted by Martin Blom so consumer cannot blow up there cheap hardware with cheap soundcards it is ok for me, but I need Studio levels like any musican to master that little bit for perfection. It is not the same running against a -6db limiter like having a normal maximum peak level. When you master the sound this way you cannot say for sure what is happening on consumer hardware when they are running cheap D/A converters, could blow up the equipment in the worst case, that's why they standarised those dynamics so this cannot happen.

For the rest it helped yep, did only understand halv of that but I wrote a mail to Martin Blom, perhabs he reads it, if not it does not make a difference so we have to live without correct AHI and cannot do music in the future. But when the sources are open and someone with coding knowledge can take hands on it to fix it, would be great. This Tunenet Developer found a way to handle it, but he seems to be some ghostrider guy, no email on his homepage for contacting.. args.
Now that I'm frustrated, will playback some 2Step stuff over Tunenet for correct ear hammering dynamics, perhabs then I feel fine again , and sorry for my hard word ;))

@Psycreator

Well, almost every DAW has a choice of panning method. There is no 'right' one (although linear is certainly the worst choice). The downside of having 0dB in the middle will be +6dB at L and R, so you have to make a trade-off.

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Audio Evolution
http://www.audio-evolution.com

@DaveAE
Anything is a comprimise somehow, but better a normal center level than this now. For to loud right and left levels the manufacturers allready prepared the mixers so the gain level is automaticaly a bit lower compared to the center level, so you cannot blow up anything :o) But this is not the problem for now. AHI drops down anything on the output, this isn'T normal. Hope it can be changed.

@DaveAE

While we are on the subject....

I want to replace my SB0220 with something (anything) else in my AmigaOne.
Please give me a recommendation that exceeds the utility of the SB0220.

My desire is be able to have a card whose basic functionality I can assess and will allow me to feed my desk radio's LINE OUT into the card. I anticipate using Mixer (and its handy [M] for muting) while I use my Amiga for browsing the internet and now and then coming across things whose sound I am willing to listen to. The mixer should allow me to listen to the radio AND still be alerted to sounds from various websites.

ggw

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..effects of civilization upon...nature, the growing gap between what education was supposed to accomplish and what it consisted of, the national debt and...high taxes, the problem of the excess cost of medical care -- Philip Wylie, 1951

@ggw

So I assume that you got sound out of your SB0220 on the A1, but Mixer did not recognize it? Or does it show up in Mixer as emu10kx and the controls don't work?

As for other sound cards, it doesn't matter much and depends on how much you want to spend. You can for example go for a more expensive M-Audio Revo 5.1 or a cheap Terratec Aureon 5.1 Fun.

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Audio Evolution
http://www.audio-evolution.com

@Psycreator

Hi, I'm the one to blame for TuneNet

The thing is I could never work out why stereo++ modes were always so quiet. When I fired up AmigaAmp it would blast out sound seemingly twice as loud as TuneNet. I read the AHI docs again but couldn't find much information.

Eventually in a fit of desperation I just doubled the volume parameter I was sending (with AHI_SetVol / ahir_Volume) and voila, it sounded loud and great. Now, this might be just boosting the wave volume in an undocumented way (with clipping), or perhaps there is a bug in the AHI in interpreting or applying this value, or perhaps it's supposed to work like this is stereo++ mode (whereby you effectively have two channels in one). I don't know - I didn't look into it that much.

Incidently, as you appear to be into sound in a big way you might be interested to hear that I'm ploughing through a few books specifically on DSP. As a result I have totally rewritten the (rubbish) resampling routines that are in the current TuneNet and have implemented a few basic filters. It sounds much, much better now when playing something different to the base sample rate. Tonight I'm working on the reverb.

Anyway, I hope the information helps.

Cheers,
Bean.

Last edited by Bean on 08-Mar-2010 at 09:01 PM.

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OS4.1 + SAM Flex
RIP my A1XE.. that used to have an appetite for batteries!

@Bean
Ah great you are here. Fine you found a workarround to that nasty -6db global bug, and I must say it workes as good as it should. I have tested arround a lot the last days, and Tunenet is well balanced on the outputs levels, you found the key to success ;)) hey I can even stream an aIFF trough Digital outputs over Tunenet to the PC and make an 1 to 1 copy without dynamic loose :o))))

About AHI, I'm no coder at all, but I think those Martin Blom has left a wrong parameter in the sourcecode so in the last compile the hole standard setting are falling in a kind of protected consumer dynamic setting which can't be corrected over prefs. Or he calculated something wrong on the rendering engine. As far as I know, the old V5 AHI versions allso were much louder than the last V6 version, but I have no old V5 PPC versions here for testing, I do not even know if they are existing, if someone has some, please send it to me or upload them somewhere so I can download them, perhabs it works and I can see what is different so we find a sollution :O)

@DaveAE

I have not an inkling of how to knowledgeably tell if the LINE-IN on the SB0220 is dead (why would it be?), or what. The mixer's cycle gadget is frozen at EMU10KX. So I have assumed that if I am to use the mixer, then I need for all the AHI preferences settings to also be EMU10KX. If I remember right, there were words in the credits for it saying that it was paid for by Hyperion, giving me the impression that it is to be used by the likes of me, unless I can say why not.... and I can't.

I really do need to try to pull together all the information that I can get my digital mitts around and read it carefully. The information can easily say one thing, but then the next version of said (whichever) software can make it the reverse (improved). I vaguely recall that you are supposed to choose between one thing or another (mixer or not?). I have no idea what some of the options in AHI are for (and am not asking for an explanation here and now), e.g. Channels. I don't know how MUSIC UNIT relates to UNIT 0 1 2 or 3. I don't when to use "Monitor" and when not (I am used to tape recorders allowing monitoring into your headphones so you can tell if the recording is even taking place and not cause feedback). I am not recording in that sense, but I set Monitor to +0.0dB everywhere I could find.

I don't know why I can click in the scrolling area of the various volumes gauges and get 0.5 dB changes, but in the Mixer it jumps dramatically. The little labels at the bottom of the mixer seem to be in 2 lines separated sort of like a "bar" button, but they don't push. Was it just more convenient to fill in 2 separated label lines? I usually figure that "things are done a certain way on purpose".

I really have no idea about the differences in the [HiFi][Stereo][++] [16 | 24 | 32] when it comes to choosing. What differences do I listen for? Honestly, I hear NO DIFFERENCE!

Getting answers to these questions is very time consuming. If the pieces of it are not clearly organized, but are a bunch of individual factoids, I am sure to forget by the next time we upgrade the AmigaOS with clean installs. Sound systems are not a BIG part of my life.

I remember there being a longish AHI writeup and that will be a start.

Thanks for being inquisitive. I won't discard the SB0220 right away... I guess.

ggw

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..effects of civilization upon...nature, the growing gap between what education was supposed to accomplish and what it consisted of, the national debt and...high taxes, the problem of the excess cost of medical care -- Philip Wylie, 1951

@Psycreator

Please go to AHI prefs and select the Advanced tab. There is a cycle gadget there where you can choose some volume boost options.

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Audio Evolution
http://www.audio-evolution.com

@ggw

Heh, I asked a simple question and a whole lot of frustration came out! :)
I agree completely, that the user shouldn't have to choose audio modes, units, hifi, stereo or stereo++. 16/24/32 bit etc. I'm afraid it's an inheritage from the past where 14 MHz was common so you could adjust to how much cpu power you had or wished to consume on audio. These days it's irrelevant.

But the answer to my question is then that when you adjust the line-in slider in Mixer you actually don't hear it I guess? (Btw, it doesn't matter what settings you chose in AHI prefs).

I'll see if I have the SB0220 at home somewhere this week and if I can reproduce it.

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Audio Evolution
http://www.audio-evolution.com

@DaveAE
Volume Setting are allready on maximum, I can only choose -3db -6db and some save settings there, but then the sound would be even more quiet then... args ;) some gadgets seem not to work by the way.. so can'T change anything for better sound this way.