Hi ALL!


Since Gallium 3D will be officially ported to AmigaOS4.x and since the old A!/Peg2 systems can load only 2x AGP cards I've a question...

The latest AGP 1.0 specs(2x speed) card producted was Radeon 9800(and only few models) so...
Was nice to get one on ebay(so we can get some nice offer or similar) or similar to get the fastest possible 3D Card usable on our hw, or better wait for the Gallium release to be sure of the support?

Thanks for attention!

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Simone"Tuxedo"Monsignori, Perugia, ITALY.

@Tuxedo

9800 its r300/r350 series, which for now supported by gallium fully

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@kas1e

yes... I mean if our port will support it...
Naturally I too think that was true but an official confirm was simply better :)

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Simone"Tuxedo"Monsignori, Perugia, ITALY.

@Tuxedo

From my understanding, everything looks like this: Gallium drivers not need to port, they all the same for all the OSes (that is the main pluse of the gallium architecture). The only what is need to "port", its those layers/init codes of whole gallium layers, which will handle drivers. I.e. we port only 1 time gallium, and then, we can use any gallium drivers, for any card.

But there is only one moment: we still need 2d drivers (p96 initialisation, etc), which should works. Then, appling a 3d layer over which will be 2 minuts of work (or even without any work, just coping of the galium driver to right place).

So (imho), we will have full set of Gallium3d drivers, but, to make all of them works, we will need 2d drivers. For which cards we have 2d drivers, then for them will be 3d driver automatically after port of gallium

(that all imho, and can be not 100% right)

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@kas1e

If so (simple) would be great

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@samo79

Not so simply (because still 2d drivers will be necessary, for making 3d drivers works), but yeah, better to write only 2d driver and have 2d/3d, in compare to write 2d, and then 3d from scratch.

For now i only fear that speed of all that gallium/mesa stuff , can be not fast, and even slower in compare with minigl. But will see

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@kas1e

Quote:

For now i only fear that speed of all that gallium/mesa stuff , can be not fast, and even slower in compare with minigl. But will see

Fortunately modern GFX cards (eg. R600 and up) are much faster in 2D and 3D than good old R200 cards. We can only hope they are fast enough to solve possible problems with slow drivers.

@kas1e

Well i hope not, IMHO the real reason to have Gallium is to replace our slow 3D system, well "more functions" are important too but more speed is mandatory !

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@pavlor

For new card we will not have slow drivers anymore (not warp3d, no old 2d drivers). 2d ones are new (by Hanz), 3d ones will be gallium ones.I am just about, that gallium itself, it not very fast on linux. Maybe its linux specific (because of DRI for example), dunno.

For example, few days ago (5 jan 2011), there is some benchmarks was done on phoronix site (of course can be not ideal, but still for comparing beetwen in the same environment).

You can see on these benchmarks, that Gallium3d sometime faster, sometime slower than classic mesa, but in the same "area", while "catalyst" driver, are faster in many-many times. Maybe its only for linux like that, maybe its because of DRI, maybe its because of any other reassons, but, speed of gallium itself on the linux today : not good enough. And maybe, our minigl/warp3d while they are not fast enough, can be even faster in end.

What will be intersting to see its:

1. Actual speed of gallium3d drivers on aos4 in actual opengl games (like Nexeuz, Quake3, Smoking Guns).

2. Speed comparing beetwen aos4 and linux, to see differences beetwen (there will play role our new 2d drivers, changing of DRI on something else (egls or what hyperion will choise in end) and so on.

We can only waiting , but gallium3d by itself not give radical speedups in compare with classicMesa for now.

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@samo79

Quote:

Well i hope not, IMHO the real reason to have Gallium is to replace our slow 3D system, well "more functions" are important too but more speed is mandatory !

Of course, but also possible as well, that our "speed loss", its not only because of old realisation of warp3d (but for sure, its almost because of warp3d i think), but as well because of P96 and system design initially as well.

Anyway, as we can see on those benchmarks which i post in post above, in some games Gallium3d really faster than classic mesa even on linux. For example on page 5, in the game World of Padman.

That also matter from the cards it self, but again, but those benchmarks all the card are different. In some games one card better, in other another. I.e. i can't say for example from these benchmarks, that "this card are the best one". Some time i see that HD4870 are better. But on bigger resolutions X1950PRO are better.

And the result words of tester:

Quote:

Even in 2011, the Mesa / Gallium3D drivers for the recent ATI Radeon graphics cards are still far from being comparable to the official Catalyst Linux driver in terms of performance. This though is not a huge surprise, but is unfortunate. One of the other interesting takeaways from this large Linux graphics comparison was with the VDrift results where a few of the ATI graphics cards being controlled by the Gallium3D driver actually outperformed the Catalyst driver. However, from the numbers it looks more along the lines of the Catalyst driver hitting a show-stopping bug. If looking at the geometric mean for all of the test results in this article for all of the graphics cards excluding the R500-based Radeon X1950PRO (as for the open-source side it's using R300g/c rather than R600g/c and it's unsupported by Catalyst 10.12) and then averaging them, it shows the Catalyst driver on Linux is roughly five times faster (5.18x to be exact) than the ATI Gallium3D driver for the Radeon HD 2000/3000/4000/5000 series. That's under this OpenGL workload of tests that work with the open-source drivers and not the demanding workloads that will work only with Catalyst at this point (i.e. the Unigine Engine tech demos and games). Again, this is with the latest upstream code at this time for the Linux 2.6.37 kernel, Mesa 7.10-devel, and xf86-video-ati 6.13.99. There has been much progress over the past year to the open-source ATI drivers and the Linux graphics stack in general, but it still has a ways to improve. Our similar set of results for the NVIDIA side with the open-source Nouveau Gallium3D driver will be out in a few days. Also worth noting is that at this time only the R300 class Gallium3D driver is enabled by default in Mesa (and most Linux distributions) while the R600 classic Mesa driver is still used rather than its newer Gallium3D driver. Based upon the faster performance, minimal regressions (just Nexuiz with Evergreen ASICs and a few other areas), the superior architecture (support for state trackers, etc), better OpenGL 2.1 support, and other benefits, hopefully in Mesa 7.11 we will see R600g by default and it being utilized by most Linux distributions upon their next major update.

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@kas1e

I don't know if it's down to Gallium or to the AROS port, but on AROS, Gallium 3D on a recentish PC (Athlon64 X2 5200 / Geforce GTS 250) didn't give very good results, considering the used hardware.

It was something like 100 fps on a standard Quake3 benchmark, while we get 150 fps on a lame mac mini+radeon 9200 on MorphOS (with yet unreleased drivers).

I think the performance on AROS has been improved since, though, so a new benchmark would make sense, anyway

@kas1e

Quote:

Of course, but also possible as well, that our "speed loss", its not only because of old realisation of warp3d (but for sure, its almost because of warp3d i think), but as well because of P96 and system design initially as well.

Well i doubt that P96 is the real responsable of the slowdowns, i mean AFAIK on MorphOS 2.x they use CyberGraphX 5 and TinyGL, the first isn't better than Picasso96, the second are MiniGL comparable in term of functions (the games availible on both platform are the same too), so Warp3D remain and/or specific video driver ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CyberGraphX

More info about 3D on MorphOS

http://3d.morphos-team.net/

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@samo79

Yep, i think that Warp3D is the main reasson as well.

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@Fab

I think it's a little of both... The gallium drivers even on linux haven't quite been the greatest when it comes to speed. They are improving rapidly tho.

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@kas1e

well...

That bench wasnt so good imho...
But However since the other alternative was Mesa3D no real difference...
I hoped for something more "standard" however...
We will se what happen in future...

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Simone"Tuxedo"Monsignori, Perugia, ITALY.

@Tuxedo

Quote:

Since Gallium 3D will be officially ported to AmigaOS4.x and since the old A!/Peg2 systems can load only 2x AGP cards I've a question... The latest AGP 1.0 specs(2x speed) card producted was Radeon 9800(and only few models) so... Was nice to get one on ebay(so we can get some nice offer or similar) or similar to get the fastest possible 3D Card usable on our hw, or better wait for the Gallium release to be sure of the support?

You had better wait for the Gallium release. Just because both the R300 and R500 happen to be supported by the same driver in Gallium doesn't mean that both will be supported automatically.

Hans

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General question for anyone who an answer it... how long did it take to develop Gallium for AROS?

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@djrikki

Read it for yourself :)

http://web.aros3d.org/index.php/projects

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@deadwood

Doesn't give a definitive answer.

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@djrikki

It give, just need read whole story

Quote:

Around July 2009 however, inspired by some of Nick's prototypes, I started thinking about making mesa available as a shared library.

then balblabl, and:
Quote:

The shared version of mesa.library was released in August 2009. From that moment things accelerated.

then balbal, and:
Quote:

The remaining work did not cause major problems and end of September 2009, I had the softpipe driver working.

then blabla and:
Quote:

The modules were ready on 30th May 2010.

So, in general all start in 2008 when deadwood start to works on hald-done-initial mesa library, then for 2 years fully accelerated mesa/galium3d combo, which he still every day improve. So saying "its already done" maybe not so right, because its done, but speed initially was bad, and for some time it was like this (like Fab say).

For now maybe its better

@deadwood
How fast the same quake3 about which fab say for now on aros ? How many FPS it have on HW which almost the same as Fab say ? (i mean x86 one)

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