As an alternative to issuing development boards to developers who can't afford A1s I was wondering if perhaps some sort of Terminal services program could be created similar to Bochs(EDIT I meant VNC). I would imagine many A1 owners would be willing to allot time on their machines to a developer over the web. I think it would be fun to see what the developer is up to...or not....and with the time differences all over the world there may not even be a clash in usage. Always on, broadband/cable connection is widespread in the US, and if I had an A1, I wouldn't have a problem keeping my machine on for a developer to use. I would be delighted to be making a contribution to the Amiga software development effort in such a manner, if not personally. In a way it would be sponsorship.

Terminal services may be ideal for team development projects also, creating the possibility of many developers chipping in for the purchase of an A1 and lowering the startup costs of such development significantly. Maybe, multiple screens can be implemented, so that concurrent work does not interfere with eachother in lieu of multiple user login capability.

So you would write a windows(or even 68k classic) client and a screen server application for OS4. C'mon, you guys are clever, it can't be that hard to do, surely. I've used a similar system through MS-Netmeeting between windows machines in the US and Australia, and even with a 56k modem it was very decent!!!!

A terminal services application available for windows would also encourage ports of software from other platforms!!!!!

_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

@BigBentheAussie

Ok. I'm replying to myself. I really want this to happen!!!

Maybe a Java client might be a good choice so you can run it on any major platform, like Linux, Windows or MacOS if they are connected to the web. I would be willing to write the client side Java code. I just need a mechanism for getting the graphics from OS4. Any takers?

How is this for a project title? "A1 Remote".

It might be a little much to do your entire development through such a process, but at the very least compilation issues could be worked out, and everyone would have access to the SDK. It could be invaluable for those doing ports without the actual hardware, and they could start immediately.

Websites tested on various Amiga browsers could be another use.

Try before you buy software could be tested, if hosted by the company.

Oh, and with password capability..... You could play with your A1 from work!!!!!!

_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

@BigBentheAussie

OK....I've been thinking a little about this.... Tell me if you have a better idea about the architecture.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SERVER SIDE(OS4/A1)
Split the Amiga screen into several segments. A checksum is stored for each segment.

If a segment checksum has changed covert the segment to a GIF or PNG and flag for transfer by posting(in XML format) to a central website that coordinates the transfers between the server and the client. Transfer the GIF/PNG file to the central coordinating web server.

I would be willing to create a central website/server to coordinate transfers for all clients in existence(in the beginning!!!).

Server polls the central website for interaction such as mouse clicks and drags as well as keyboard input(which is stored in an XML client interaction file). Files can also be transferred to and from the A1.

Server needs to perform the actual mouse drags, mouse clicks, and text entry to control the OS. Probably not a trivial task.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CLIENT SIDE.
Java program polls central website for changes to the screen, and downloads the transfer file, to examine if a change has occurred. Goes back to the web server to load the changed graphics.

Mouse clicks and drags, text input(in a text box) is compiled in an XML file which is uploaded to the web server.

File transfer capability included.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WEB SERVER(IN THE MIDDLE) I'll write this.
From Server.....
Get the posts of image segments that have changed in XML format.
Receives an upload of the image(filename and segment location contained in XML).

From Client....
Receives an upload of the interaction file from the client in XML format.
Receives a file to send to the A1.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HEY, this could serve as the basis of Amiga Dev TV . We can't get enough of the OS4 screenshots. Imagine watching developers at work. Or even getting help on projects from hardcore programmers. They would be able to look directly at your screen and could even assist directly.

Ok. This is how I think it should be done. I think its a really simple way to do it. Probably too simple. But it would get the job done.

I am willing to write the client and middle tier section of this application.
I just need an OS4 developer to write the server side.

And we need to establish the XML interface for the client server interaction. I can do this too.
Again.... any takers!!!

Obviously such a mechanism is going to be slow... And its rather low tech. But its better than shelling out many hundreds of dollars for the hardware isn't it. Especially, if your hardware of choice isn't available yet. ie uA1.

Or am I just nutty for proposing such a thing?

_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

@BigBentheAussie

Example of XML Schemas created by the Server and the Client.


    
    
    



    
    CLI Command or entry in an editor as submitted through a multiline textbox on the client
    
    
    


The middle tier sitting on a website just keeps these updated removing the XML as it is transmitted/requested. It could also be saved for auditing if required along with the GIF images.

Yes, the XML could be shortened/abbreviated.

See any problems with the XML?

Eager to get going on this as I now have some time up my sleeves.
I can do the client and middle tier.
Any takers on the A1 side?

_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

@BigBentheAussie

I like your idea. Have you considered contacting AmigaShare? They might include this in their "Sponsorship Progam" and house the login part. But I wouldn't know.

I'm using a SSH client to access a text editor on a remote computer, when editing my website. You log on to the remote computer as if you were there. Maybe we should look into porting OpenSSH. It is P2P if I'm not mistaken, so that would be faster. But I wouldn't know that either.

_________________
/ H. Peter Eriksson AKA CoopDot

I have it, I have it, I have it

@coopdot

I'll have a server up and running. The login part is easy enough to do.
I intend to write the central web server code in ASP.NET to start with as that is what I am most familiar with, and its good enough for a proof of concept. I also have access to a SQL server for storing all the logins and whatever info I need between sessions. Easy peasy.

I am thinking that perhaps I might write the client side in javascript. I know, I know, you're probably all cringing at this, but it really isn't as crippled as you think, and chances are that Amiga browsers support it, so you could even use your classic Amiga in this system whereas you couldn't if I used Java. Javascript is more portable that Java. I have several years of web development experience and I believe I can handle this easily enough. I was thinking of using hidden frames for the polling thread. I may also have a floating window for text entry/editing. Easy Peasy. If the javascript client becomes too unweildy or does not deliver adequate performance, I'll go the Java route.

At the moment I just want to do this as a proof of concept, then we'll look at ways of making it better, providing better security and speed. Its my understanding that HTTPS is all that is required to implement the security. Is there a need for an SSH client? What do you do for a server? Hmmm. I dunno. In my architecture the A1 only needs to poll the website for interaction from the client. I am well aware that this approach may be a little unorthadox, but if someone wants to write something like PCAnywhere, which I would consider an even greater undertaking, then be my guest.

I like the idea that you can use any standard web browser and do not have to install any special client software(or even java). I also like how the system is centralised and can even be community driven.

Hmmmm. Maybe we should call this project "A1 Anywhere".

I am also thinking that by capturing the various transactions, a sequence of events can be captured for tutorial purposes even.

_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

@BigBentheAussie

You're right. SSH and AmigaOS would be hard to mix anyway.

I can't help out right now, maybe when I've leard programing. Wouldn't want to touch ASP.NET though.

_________________
/ H. Peter Eriksson AKA CoopDot

I have it, I have it, I have it

@coopdot

I can handle the middle tier and client side easily enough. I just need people who can do the screen captures and pass the various messages on to the OS to enter text and move the mouse around. Its a little too low level Amiga for me.

If someone really wants to make it worth their while, I would consider it as a subscription service and split such proceeds accordingly. I know, I know, everyone wants it to be free, but the whole point is to lower the OS4 development costs and this would be way, WAY lower. Perhaps part of the subscription could go to those people actually hosting development on their machines, you know to pay for electricity. I guess, the market will decide. Maybe the users will converse and decide on an equitable agreement. I dunno. I think the capability for such hosting is the most important part.

It may be worth the webserver eventually maintaing a central repository for source control actually and remove it from the A1 when the session is complete. But now I'm getting way ahead of myself. Just a thought. Brainstorming!!!

A1 Sponsors could log into the website and leave their machines running for specific developers that they trust on their machine. Their A1 machines poll the website less often while waiting for the developer to take control.

I dunno. I'm brainstorming. I'll do it any way it works equitably for everybody involved. It can be closed or open sourced depending on whatever the OS4 developer wants to do. I don't care if someone wants to build something similar on their own either. We need a good system.

_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

@coopdot

Quote:

Maybe we should look into porting OpenSSH.

... already done: AmigaOS port of OpenSSH

So we're already set for console apps, I guess...

@BigBentheAussie

Quote:

OK....I've been thinking a little about this.... Tell me if you have a better idea about the architecture. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SERVER SIDE(OS4/A1) Split the Amiga screen into several segments. A checksum is stored for each segment. If a segment checksum has changed covert the segment to a GIF or PNG and flag for transfer by posting(in XML format) to a central website that coordinates the transfers between the server and the client. Transfer the GIF/PNG file to the central coordinating web server.

Let me put you of your misery... well, can't call it misery, you had fun didn't you? VNC for AmigaOS

If you still want to re-invent the wheel...

Human readable plain-text XML for a network protocol? Wouldn't it be better/less bandwidth/less CPU to use a binary protocol? Perhaps take a look at how XDMCP, the X11 guys have solved a lot of problems that don't need reinventing..

On the AmigaOS client side to a linux box, that is more what I care about when I get an A1... Hopefully all I need to do is get an X server running, geek gadgets has Xgeek. amiga.sourceforge.net has OpenSSH, then I can Mozilla/etc. to my heart's content from the AmigaONE

@csirac

Does VNC allow you to access another machine over the internet or just over a LAN? If so, have you ever got it working that way? And if it does work, why not get a sponship program hosted already, on Amigashare perhaps.

If VNC is not the answer in itself, I guess I could look at the VNC code to get an idea about the screen grabbing algorithm and the screen manipulation at the very least.

So, you also want to be able to use Terminal services to access other Operating Systems from an A1? Hmmm....

Errr, Maybe I don't get you. You think you'll be able to capture an X UI message, send it to an Amiga through OpenSSH, for a program written with XGeek to interpret, and somehow magically display such a thing in an OS4 browser, that hasn't been written yet. Really, I'm not being sarcastic. I'd love to see that.

The human readable XML is nice in the beginning for debugging. The bottleneck using my method is not going to be with the XML but rather the graphics, and the server hits.

Yeah, I had fun, for like the 4 hours I was thinking about this.

_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

@BigBentheAussie

How about using something like VNC to allow people to uplaod their programs (built using Hyperions cross compiler) to test on an actual A1??


Mark

_________________
IceStar Media Ltd.

@BigBentheAussie

Quote:

Does VNC allow you to access another machine over the internet or just over a LAN?

VNC uses the TCP/IP protocol so it is able to use it over the internet. There might be a firewall blocking it and you have to know the destination IP number (or the destination has to use DynDNS) but it's possible.

Ciao, Alfred

@csirac

***BEEP!*** Wrong answer. That one is VNCSnapshot, an app that takes a snapshot image of a remove VNC server. The sole VNC client/server port to Amiga is, afaik, this. Old and not up to date with the latest version of RealVNC.

@BigBentheAussie

I can connect to my office PC from home through a VPN, I even did from an hotel in Boston (using their free WiFi network Of course, it works also within a LAN.

This is not the same as a Terminal Server or Citrix Metaframe, where each connection will let a user login on a (potentially) single machine concurrently with other users, each one with his own credentials.
To support that in a transparent way, I'm afraid that AmigaOS will have to be multi-user...

_________________
La fortuna è cieca. La sfiga ci vede benissimo.

@sgm

Ok...Now I'm totally confused.
If the solution exists, why isn't anyone pushing that it is used?
Or doesn't anyone like the concept in the first place?
Oh, screw it!!!

_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

@BigBentheAussie

I think its a good idea, I've heard on irc/forums several times that people can cross compile, but not test, this would be ideal (although coulld be a bit slow)

Mark

_________________
IceStar Media Ltd.

@BigBentheAussie

Does VNC allow you to access another machine over the internet or just over a LAN?

LAN, internet, there's no difference, just the speed. tightvnc is the way of the future, with some improvements in bandwidth usage, and it seems - appears to be more actively maintained than the official realvnc, but then there's also ultravnc and tridiavnc (OSS?) both of which I have no experience with.

If so, have you ever got it working that way?

Yes. via SSH over the internet, via SSH over a LAN (over 2 router hops), and also direct over a LAN. Believe it or not, the bottleneck actually appeared to be the CPU of the machines I was working with - PIII-800MHz. tightvnc was doing a good job of limiting network bandwidth usage (around 200KB/sec, CAD work) but was hopelessly loading down the machine such that the app I wanted to use was having trouble updating the screen/processing even if you were sitting at the host PC (windows host, linux client).

So, you also want to be able to use Terminal services to access other Operating Systems from an A1? Hmmm....

Yes. Actually I want to use "Terminal services" from any operating system I'm using to any other operating system I want to use. No operating system has all the apps I need. My comfort zone (working environment) is currently Linux. Sometimes I VNC to a windows machine that has expensive proprietry software I need to run. Sometimes I'm forced to use a windows PC and I run linux apps from there but usually using X11 and SSH though, either with a PuTTY+X-Win32 combination or plain old cygwin.

There's no need for VNC if the remote machine is Linux, Solaris, Irix or any other *IX - SSH with XDMCP forwarding is as efficient, convenient, speedy and flexible as you can possibly (?) get (that I'm aware of).

Errr, Maybe I don't get you. You think you'll be able to capture an X UI message, send it to an Amiga through OpenSSH

Yes

for a program written with XGeek to interpret

"written with XGeek" - ahhh I see your confusion AFAIK, Xgeek is just a plain old port of the world famous XFree86 X11 display server. If you have an X11 display server, you can run any X11 application with it. In fact, you don't need OpenSSH to redirect the X11 display server messages.

Login to any unix system, and set the DISPLAY env to my.remote.X11.display.server.com:0.0 instead of localhost:0.0 (actually it defaults to :0.0, but that's another story...). The first '0' in the :0.0 is the display number, which might be non-zero if the remote host has more than one monitor or runs more than one display server on the same monitor. The second '0' in ':0.0' can actualy sometimes be left off (when dealing with X display managers, perhaps best described as "login managers), I think it sepecifies the workspace number for the display.

Actually it's a bit more complex than that these days, authentication with a remote display requires authentication with cookies and hashes and stuff... you can use xauth and exchange "MIT magic cookies" manually, but it's just easier to login with OpenSSH to do all that (and set DISPLAY) for you. Extra bonus: the communications channel is encrypted. Anyone sniffing on the network can't see what you're doing.

You see, in Linux (well, most Unix I guess), the application, such as Mozilla is the "client" and the display (includes keyboard/mouse) is the "server". Want mozilla to execute on your 2GHz athlon but display on your AmigaOS machine? Fire up Xgeek on the amiga box, login to the athlon machine with OpenSSH, run mozilla. Done. Easy as that.

Of course, there are problems here:
1) I guess Xgeek may or may not work on AmigaOS4.
2) Not sure if OpenSSH works on AmigaOS4 (but if I had to guess I'd say the odds are 10,000:1 in favour - surely the OS4 dev team can't live without SSH!).
3) Fonts are hard to get right - the "client" application depends on the remote X11 display server to have all the necessary fonts (the application's local fonts/display server is irrelevant in that regard) - I've never really got a MS-windows X11 display server to have nice anti-aliased fonts

Of course, a lot of non-unix ports (such as cygwin and the commercial products) don't implement all the extensions, like OpenGL.

It is an amazing thing to watch an OpenGL app pipe the OpenGL data over a network to a remote OpenGL display (slow as buggery, but it works!).

and somehow magically display such a thing in an OS4 browser, that hasn't been written yet.

If Xgeek works (I assume it does, but perhaps not on OS4), that should be all you need.

Really, I'm not being sarcastic. I'd love to see that.

You might be pleasantly surprised. If Xgeek is even semi-completed on OS3.x, it shouldn't be TOO hard to adapt for OS4 (famous last words, especially if they are spoken by anyone other than the coders doing the work ).

The human readable XML is nice in the beginning for debugging.

Probably, but binary formats aren't necessarily going to be that much harder to debug with, heck, XML might even introduce bugs But it's your choice I can see XML would be useful to learn with though, even before you get to the networking stage (just setting up screen capture/manipulation).

The bottleneck using my method is not going to be with the XML but rather the graphics, and the server hits.

True, however I just can't help but think that parsing XML is an unnecessary overhead you could easily do without. I'm not sure it's the best choice for situations such as this where you want low latency. For sure, XML could be useful for other parts you are talking about - authentication, file transfers, etc. - but in my mind, not really suited for actual GUI parts (mouse/keyboard/display).

Cheers

@sgm

Quote:

***BEEP!*** Wrong answer. That one is VNCSnapshot, an app that takes a snapshot image of a remove VNC server. The sole VNC client/server port to Amiga is, afaik, this. Old and not up to date with the latest version of RealVNC.

D'oh! It would help if I actually used an Amiga these days

Still, better than nothing. VNC, from what I understand of the protocol, is about as "smart" as you can be for a giant polling bitmap Or at least, without actually understanding the GUI framework on the host OS.

It only communicates "deltas", can compress them using a different image compression algorithms (zlib, jpeg, gif) and even does wierd things to compress the colours (in tightvnc anyway).

@BigBentheAussie

Hum I want to develop for AmigaOS4 but can't offer an A1...I wish prices will fall down a bit or just to get an old motherboard.
But with a solution like RealVNC, I don't think it's enough. If the program crash the whole system must reboot and reconnect. If 10 users are coding at the same time It'll be a big mess heh.
Your idea is good at least to show people OS4 running. Hyperion may give a free VNC access as an advertisement
If someone has an old A1 motherboard for a correct price...

@BigBentheAussie

Quote:

Ok...Now I'm totally confused. If the solution exists, why isn't anyone pushing that it is used? Or doesn't anyone like the concept in the first place?

I think everyone would like a solution on AmigaOS.

If VNC is anything to go by, though, a "dumb" polling bitmap is hard to get right, and not really a suitable working environment unless you have a 100Mbit LAN (even then it's a bit frustrating). Compressing each frame is CPU intensive, and reduces latency (responsivness).

If you have access to a couple of linux and/or windows machines, I would certainly recommend evaluating VNC so you can see what I mean, and perhaps give you an idea of the "scope" of the problem, or at least parts of them.

Quote:

Oh, screw it!!!

Don't be like that We do need a decent port of VNC. Coming from the point of view that you've been discussing, who would use a "terminal services" for AmigaOS?

During testing for developers who already cross-compile. Those that use:

(1) classic Amigas
(2) UAE
(3) AROS
(3) Morphos (gasp!)

On the other hand, using SSH tunneled XDMCP applications is very effective on a LAN. Word processing (scrolling around, creating tables, etc), for instance, uses about 50KB/sec. On the other hand, although a 512K ADSL connection has the bandwidth, you need a fast ping to the remote host for the LATENCY to be acceptable

For an AmigaOS solution to rival XDMCP, you need to start digging into intuition and reaction etc

@BigBentheAussie

I think it is a great idea too. I have thought about it many times. This would be a great idea for the people that want to write for it or just to check it out. It may also be a good idea to have a place where coders can leave their programs that need to be tested and get feedback on what the results are. Slow perhaps, but a combination of both would at least make testing possible for those that do not have A1's

It also brings to mind about how security would be handled.

I think I would have some way to switch hard drives so no one actually messes up my own desktop and have a second drive just for these remote users.