I'm wanting to get started with some C/C++ porting on OS4. Before I get started I want to know if the SDK available on Hyperion's site includes any type of IDE or is it a command-line only package. Anyone here know? If it doesn't include a decent IDE, are there any IDEs out there that I can use or am I stuck using the CLI to develop?

@ferrels

I am just use notepad + cli window. As "ide" you can use latest golded/cubicide. But in general the best ide at moment for os4 it's "CodeBench". But the latest 0.8 version have very weird bug with copy+paste, so need wait for the next release (which will be soon).

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@ferrels
What do you need an IDE for?

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@ChrisH

I think he like somethink easy for the developming and not want to boring with shels/cli/manual compiling. He want works with code by 'good' looking for eyes and good designed stuff by just pressing some button for compile, some button for debegging and some buttong for running. Somebody can works only with ide, becouse it's logical and easy, and they do not want to boring about deep details. (and in general, it's good to do it like that).

From other side, for example ide like CodeBench, have many pluses which speedup your coding time and make it more easy.

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@ferrels

Golded for editing and highlighting the code. CLI for compiling.

@ferrels

Like ChrisH askes rethorically: "What do you need an IDE for?", the answer is provided by kasle: "I am just use notepad + cli window.".

So do I. I will admit that it's not perfect; far from it, but in the end it gets the job done.

OldFart

Last edited by OldFart on 02-Jul-2009 at 11:22 AM.

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It's a case of what you get used to.

I used to use a simple editor and a shell, but things just took too long. Trying to find functions etc in huge source files drove me to despair. IDE features help a lot to speed up development times, and I simply hate it when I have to go back to Notepad, it just feels so limiting.

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@rigo

Yeah, you are right. And i hope that as soon as possible you will release codebench 0.9 and i will use notepad only when i need type somethink little/faster :)

And to all: Try to work with 1mb of source code, which done not by your , which have thousand of fucntions, which buggy very offten and addr2line give to you these lines like 12932 and while you jump on this line you loose already tons of seconds..

Yeah, sucking IDE which just EDITORs but called like "ide", It's not what mean by IDE in general. Codebench - it's more or less IDE as it must be. The good IDE helping users to work more prodectuve and faster. In reality these editors with buttons compile/run/debug only, can be called as "very primitive" ide. The normal one have tons of thinks which help you when you work. And ppls when ask about IDE mean it , not notepad and cli :)

But yes, if nothink to choice, then notepad is your friend.

Last edited by kas1e on 02-Jul-2009 at 12:18 PM.

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@OldFart
My question was not rhetorical! I get by fine using PortablE with CygnusEd & Shell. Compiling a program is as easy as "PEGCC myProgram.e". If it finds some errors, it tells me the line number + shows the relevant line. If I want list of OS4 functions, I can use the SDKbrowser. I really don't see why an IDE would be needed, and in my experience an IDE just **adds complexity** that slows me down, hence my question

(Note, if I wanted syntax highlighting for E code, Annotate does this very good, but in my humble opinion E code does not need syntax highlighting due to it's good design.)

Last edited by ChrisH on 02-Jul-2009 at 06:21 PM.

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@ChrisH

You tried CodeBench already ?:)

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@kas1e
No, since: (1) No need (see above), and (2) It probably only supports C/C++, so not much use for me.

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@ChrisH

Quote:

My question was not rhetorical! I get by fine using PortablE with CygnusEd & Shell. Compiling a program is as easy as "PEGCC myProgram.e". If it finds some errors, it tells me the line number + shows the relevant line. If I want list of OS4 functions, I can use the SDKbrowser. I really don't see why an IDE would be needed, and in my experience an IDE just **adds complexity** that slows me down, hence my question

This is a typical response from someone that is not IDE hardened. Of course you "get by" using just the shell and a compiler, as we have all done so in past years. The point of using some sort of environment is to make use of time saving features. Your example of using the SDKBrowser is a good one. While an excellent piece of software, it still takes time to switch from one application to another and locate what you are looking for. The SDKBrowser does make this much simpler than other methods certainly, but some environments can sense what you are doing and offer context sensitive information right at your mouse pointer to save you going off to look for it. There are lots of other advantages too, particularly the highlighting of errors in the source, jumping straight to the error etc, all of which speed up the process.

Quote:

(Note, if I wanted syntax highlighting for E code, Annotate does this very good, but in my humble opinion E code does not need syntax highlighting due to it's good design.)

This is another typical response too. Syntax highlighting is usefull for an instant visual check to make sure you have strings terminated etc, apart from other stuff. It's not just about pretty colours.

Anyway, that's enough of that, coding is what is important, how you go about it is your business.

(edit) Actually, while C/C++ is the main focus of CodeBench, there is also a mostly complete HollyWood plugin for it too. Is there really enough people coding in 'E' to warrant the creation of a plugin for that? If so, it should be fairly easy to implement.

Last edited by rigo on 02-Jul-2009 at 06:41 PM.
Last edited by rigo on 02-Jul-2009 at 06:41 PM.
Last edited by rigo on 02-Jul-2009 at 06:39 PM.

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@rigo

It's a case of what you get used to.

How do you check syntax errors? I use the NotePad to write SDLBasic programs, but syntax errors can cause maddening results. The recommended IDE for Perl, Ruby, SDLBasic, Python, etc. is ScITE or Scintilla - Interactive Text Editor. But, that's not available for OS4. All the changes to Amiga X11 wiped that idea. I guess the question I'm trying to ask is CodeBench limited to C and C++ codes and syntax only?
Oops:
Actually, while C/C++ is the main focus of CodeBench, there is also a mostly complete HollyWood plugin for it too. Is there really enough people coding in 'E' to warrant the creation of a plugin for that? If so, it should be fairly easy to implement.
How difficult to create a SDLBasic plugin?

Last edited by Snuffy on 02-Jul-2009 at 07:56 PM.

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@Snuffy

SDLBasic is currently not a supported project type, and I'm not sure there are enough users to warrant the effort to implement support for it.

I'd like to be proved wrong though.

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@rigo
Your reply sounds a bit irritated, but I hope that won't impede an interesting debate. I also hope you aren't taking this as an attack on CodeBench, seeing as I haven't even used it!

I'm not denying that an IDE might provide some additional functionality that is (at least sometimes) useful, or at least make some things slightly faster to do. And no doubt there will be situations (perhaps for beginners, or for large amounts of open source code written badly by someone else) where that might prove to be really useful.

But in my experience, IDEs tend to be large/complex, slow & even slightly buggy - and thus I have tended to find that they get in the way of coding far more than the (IMHO minor) improvements they make. I therefore try to have the most minimal coding environment possible - (1) a Shell with scrollable history (KingCON), (2) a fast text editor with the ability to view multiple files & even different parts of the same files simultaneously (CygnusEd), and (3) a tool to find (source code) files that contain a specified piece of code (DOpus5's or Workbench's or Filer's Find function). Oh, and (4) an AmigaOS reference (either the SDK in AmigaGuide format or the SDK Browser).


Additionally, I think that an IDE is more important for some languages (such as C/C++) than it is for others (say AmigaE), as it can help work-around little problems in the language. For example, an IDE can provide automatic matching of curly braces, which can be a real pain in C/C++, but in a language (such as E) which doesn't overload that symbol, that isn't much of a problem. Or for example, it can provide keyword colouring, because otherwise keywords can look the same as non-keywords. Now, you might say "these are only little problems", but I would say that if you have enough of these "little problems" being solved by the IDE, then you are going to start thinking an IDE is necessary. Well, maybe it is - but only for that kind of language! When I make improvements to the E language with PortablE, one thing I try to do is minimise the need for an IDE.

Last edited by ChrisH on 02-Jul-2009 at 10:40 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 02-Jul-2009 at 10:39 PM.

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@ChrisH

No, no irritation, merely making a point, which still stands:

It's coding that is important, how you achieve that is up to you.

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@ChrisH
Quote:

I therefore try to have the most minimal coding environment possible

I use a setup similar to what you've described. I open a KingCON shell on my Dopus4 screen. If errors are listed, I scroll back to them, click on the offending file in a Dopus4 lister and click my Dopus4 "edit" button to open the file in a TurboText window. The Dopus4 search and hunt functions help locate functions or include references etc. I could add an SDKBrowser button too; that might be useful. Years ago I used a set of TurboText scripts to scan the error output from my assembler or M2 compiler and open a Turbotext window where I could press a function key to scroll through errors. That worked well with single file sources but is not as practical for large multi-file programs with complicated makefiles. I suppose it's a matter of preference.

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@ChrisH

I'm lazy and an IDE makes development and debugging much easier.

@ferrels

Quote:

I'm lazy and an IDE makes development and debugging much easier.

An IDE is a tool specifically aimed at making development easier. You don't have to be lazy to use one.

Yes, you can program with a minimal setup too, but then, walking will get you from A to B as well even though driving is going to be faster and more comfortable. A good IDE will make development much easier, and much more robust.

For example, I frequently use Eclipse under Windows and Linux. When I write code in Eclipse, I can immediately see syntax errors in the editor without even compiling. Also the syntax highlighting of Eclipse/CDT will recognize function names, local/global variables etc and color them appropriately. If something doesn't color, you can bet you mistyped it. These are all little things that make programming easier.

Then there's auto-completion. Type a prefix and press Ctrl-Space, and it will list all symbols that fit into that context. Also, if you have something like

struct Window *win;
uint32 x = win->press Ctrl-Space

it will list all fields that are in the Window structure.

This type of assistance cuts down significantly on development time

On top of that, the compiler output is analyzed by most IDE's and you can simply click on an error to jump to the source code. That's a good deal simpler than going by line number, especially if the IDE keeps track of original line numbers when you edit something before the error spot in the file.

In the end, it boils down to personal taste, but I seriously think that an IDE will increase one's productivity by quite a factor.

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@Rigo
Can, or will next CodeBench release have somethink about rigo said ? I mean ctrl+space for the listing stuff in structure and/or the used words in your programm ? On os3 i use Golded, and it have also ctrl+space stuff (but a minimal one, so, not that good as can be). Just curios, can codebench do somethink like that ?

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