... and not one of the good kind!

Well... I'm rather busy with work, so to save time I just paste some recent talk I had on our binaryriot IRC channel in regards to the "fancy" MUI4 release for OS4 and Amiga OS 3.x on "h***://muidev.de/downloads/".

Just to state some facts: I was not asked if my files could be used (how about an e-mail next time?) and I definitely would not have agreed to get my credits removed. I have no idea who is repsonsible for this, so I just leave it here... maybe someone in charge of those releases can explain this to me.

And feel free to do your own conclusions...

Quote:

[08, 13:57:52] rzookol tokai|noir: btw. do you know that mui4 dev team uses your autodocs in os4 mui4 archive? ... [08, 17:10:01] Jupp3 rzookol: Without any credit, I assume? :) ... [08, 21:26:29] tokai|noir rzookol: No. They do not have permission to do that. [08, 21:26:31] tokai|noir Which one? ... [08, 21:29:38] tokai|noir All of them... nice [08, 21:30:02] tokai|noir well.. need to diff. [08, 21:31:46] tokai|noir Jupp3: in fact they even removed credit: [08, 21:32:06] tokai|noir - STATIC CONST UBYTE credits[] = [08, 21:32:06] tokai|noir - "\33b%p\33n" /* Programming: */ [08, 21:32:06] tokai|noir - "\n\tChristian Rosentreter" [08, 21:32:06] tokai|noir + STATIC CONST UBYTE credits[] = [08, 21:32:06] tokai|noir + "\33b%p\33n\n" /* Programming: */ [08, 21:32:06] tokai|noir + "\tAlbert Einstein\n" [08, 21:32:06] tokai|noir "\n" [08, 21:32:09] tokai|noir WTF? [08, 21:32:58] tokai|noir Or they use some old version perhaps... [08, 21:33:26] Jupp3 tokai|noir: Perhaps you can see if that's some old version instead? [08, 21:33:55] tokai|noir Well... need to checkout old versions first [08, 21:35:11] Jupp3 tokai|noir: Perhaps you can guess version based on other things? [08, 21:35:16] Jupp3 Like some recent change elsewhere ... [08, 21:36:28] tokai|noir First revision on my SVN has Christian Rosentreter, no Einstein. [08, 21:36:52] tokai|noir Why would I give credit to Einstein? [08, 21:37:19] Jupp3 tokai|noir: He's not some evil MorphOS developer! [08, 21:37:57] tokai|noir Well... I can check even earlier versions (which are on CVS), I started with the SVN in 2009 ... [08, 21:38:38] rzookol tokai|noir: other autodocs are stolen too ... [08, 21:39:48] tokai|noir Every day a new surprise [08, 21:42:21] tokai|noir Probably they merged our MUI 4 autodocs too (not respecting multiple authorship in some cases) [08, 21:42:53] tokai|noir dunno, if they have some free pass by Stuntzi or what their legal situation is, but it definitely does not include my work. [08, 21:43:33] tokai|noir the includes are vanilla copy'n'paste, too. My original credits removed, of course. ... [08, 21:46:52] tokai|noir They definitely exchanged my name with Einstein (I compared to oldest version on the MorphOS CVS and it always had my name in the examples.) ...

P.S. Can I utilize the AmigaOS autodocs for MorphOS too? I really would like to fill some missing holes in our system includes for various legacy functions. :)



/edit

-- 11.Dec.2014
Updated the thread title (multiple times as the site engine is a bit backwards), as requested.

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I'd somehow remotely understand if the developers were adding information (adding their own name), but looks like they were just removing it...

I hope no-one tries to claim that Albert Einstein has anything to do with this

Is that the "AmiKit" release of MUI4?

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@tonyw

Quote:

Is that the "AmiKit" release of MUI4?

I assume it's the one available in the url mentioned in the initial post.

@tokai

Is it not possible to check who committed this changes in repository.

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I've also noticed that the version/revisions of the MCC's of the forked MUI4
is not in par with the official MUI4.

Like Aboutbox.mcc :

Aboutbox.mcc 20.21 (30.11.14) © 2007-2014 Christian Rosentreter
Aboutbox.mcc 20.79 (31.10.2014) Copyright (C) 2011-2014 Thore Boeckelmann [AmigaOS4/PPC] [svn r4117]

Last time I compared these two the result was that the later one was not covering all of the stuff the orginal did which makes it a little akward to a coder since there is some stuff in it that I needed to patch just for the OS4 variant eventhough that has a much higher revision.

If the intention is to clone the content of it, please sync the versions so that is on par of what the orginal class since otherwise it's just going to become a real FrankenMUI soup which needs a lot of extrawork to keep up with for the coders using the cloned classes.

@Develin

OS4 MUI4 is incompatible anyway.

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@tokai
Did you get permission to use the image in your Avatar or did you draw it yourself?

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@Xenic

What's that got to do with the price of chickens?

@Xenic

You steal your avatars? :)

Well...
I can make my avatars on my own (I'm not entirely unskilled when it comes to making graphics, I think). But you are right: this avatar uses graphical elements which I have not made myself, but are perfectly legal to use, f.ex. see http://www.distributed.net/Logos at the bottom (note the "Public Domain" part).

Last edited by tokai on 09-Dec-2014 at 02:35 AM.

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I also wonder if they have right to call that OS4 (and now 68k too) thing to MUI4, because it isn't the real MUI4. At least it confuses users who are misleaded to think that it's the real official MUI4 and at leat it isn't morally correct in my opinion...

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@Xenic

I will give you 4.5/10 for that trolling attempt

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@itix

Well, one can think that the idea is to be compatible since it's named the same =)
It's not only revisions that are confusing, the whole situation seems a little messy (mildly talking)

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@tokai

That MUI "release" also contains bits of my stolen work, so you're not entirely alone here.

@tokai

Well orignal MUI is made by Stefan Stuntz, then it MUI became a contribute in AmigaOS4 and part in MorphOS.

Quote:

Develin wrote: Last time I compared these two the result was that the later one was not covering all of the stuff the orginal did which makes it a little akward to a coder since there is some stuff in it that I needed to patch just for the OS4 variant eventhough that has a much higher revision.

Initially i thought there where cooperation between MUI MorphOS and MUI AmigaOS, I guess I was wrong, or is that only some developers who is cooperating?

If so then work has to be duplicated and so, it no wonder there be different names in the copyrights, when its not the same source code or binary.

Bu I agree if the same code was used they should have keep the copyrights. The same appays to AmigaOS NDK's as the MUI SDK I guess.

Zune in AROS I guess is also a result of lack of cooperation, but it would not have existed if was not for MUI documentation in the first place.

Quote:

P.S. Can I utilize the AmigaOS autodocs for MorphOS too? I really would like to fill some missing holes in our system includes for various legacy functions. :)

I don't think MorphOS or AROS exist to day if was not for development documentations, the SDK/NDK, and the header files that the SDK/NDK included.

So I was thinking this might be a old grudge.

Quote:

jacadcaps  wrote: That MUI "release" also contains bits of my stolen work, so you're not entirely alone here.

So what is the status of MUI and what right does etch have to it, who controls the licence, and what happens if developer quits work on it, is classes of MUI then gone forever?

Quote:

Itix wrote: OS4 MUI4 is incompatible anyway.

Quote:

jVP wrote: because it isn't the real MUI4. At least it confuses users who are misleaded to think that it's the real official MUI4 and at leat it isn't morally correct in my opinion...

Way is MorphOS version of MUI4.0 more MUI then AmigaOS4.1 version of MUI, is not just a fork?

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@Xenic

Quote:

Did you get permission to use the image in your Avatar or did you draw it yourself?

And even if the avatar was drawn by someone else, he didn't claim it was drawn by Albert Einstein instead

@jacadcaps

Who has stolen what?

Generally I understand that copyright should stay inside because honor who honor deserves but I generally do not understand the whole "we do not give anything to the others" attitude in parts of the OS development teams. That is true for MUI4 and MorphOS team (who then moan if others create something different then, if MUI would be open then all would use it) but also true for most of developments behind AmigaOS. Instead of working together better blaming each other . That is really "Amiga spirit", you do not find that in any other retro community

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

I don't think MorphOS or AROS exist to day if was not for development documentations, the SDK/NDK, and the header files that the SDK/NDK included.

Nobody complains about using (as in reading, understanding and utilising the information provided therein for implementing code.) That's what documentation is made for.

But...
redistributing the files with some not authorised changes like my original credits removed/ altered, etc., is simply a no-go.


If it was "OK" then we (as in the MorphOS team) simply could fill up various black holes in our documentation with bits and pieces of the original AmigaOS 3.1 autodocs. Now that would cause some scandal, I guess! :)


I also wrote autodocs in the past where a previous variant by a different author already existed (neuralnet.library, f.ex.). This is not an easy job at all, no question. I spend more time writing this replacement documentation than implementing the actual code. You always can get very close to mere plagiarism quickly. Still magnitudes better and the proper way to do things than to just copy'n'paste someone else's work and tack your own name at the top like it was done here in this OS4 "MUI4" case basically.


The funny thing is if they (whoever is responsible) would have asked before if they could use the file then I most likely would have said "yes", but I'm really, really pedantic about the proper order of things (even some MorphOS folks learned about this already in the past), so that door is closed now.

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@jPV

who cares if it is really "MUI4" or not? There could be only a confusion if there would be many projects that are developed cross-platform using MUI. I only recall OWB and Digibooster right now. People here have the desire to create problems where no real are.

BTW there are generally not many projects developed cross-platform. And there are lots of different MUI-implementations right now like MUI38 (the old one on 68k), Zune, MUI4 on AmigaOS/68k and MUI4 on MorphOS. If there is the desire to avoid problems cooperation would help a lot. Otherwise there is no reason to moan.

@tokai

if they have just copied and paste your work and removed your copyright then I understand your anger