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      /  The *real* cost of an Efika
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MajorOwned 
The *real* cost of an Efika
Posted on 22-Nov-2007 11:46:39
#1 ]
Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2007
Posts: 26
From: Unknown

Ok, so an efika motherboard with cpu etc is 99 dollars, but what's the actual cost of the system likely to be to actually build and have working?

I.e. What's missing? case/power supply? and as one of its selling points is its price does anyone know what the absolute cheapest way of having a full system would be?

(I'm interested in one, but money is tight, so would like to get a sense of the actual cost before diving in)

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Zylesea 
Re: The *real* cost of an Efika
Posted on 22-Nov-2007 12:09:24
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2263
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@MajorOwned

You'll need a
- 2.5" hd drive
- AGP or PCI gfx card (recommended Radeon 9250)
- ATX power supply
- usb kbd & mouse
- case

The minimal cost for all those goods ist around ~100 US$, average is 180US$ I'd say.
I spend around that amount, biggest cost driver was the external 12V PSU + ATX adapter (whic is not necessary, any ATX PSU does the job, but those external brick PSUs are just nice).

Many of the required things are floating around in the generic comuter tinkerer's houshold anyway, some mice or ATX psu and such...

Last edited by Zylesea on 22-Nov-2007 at 12:12 PM.

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eniacfoa 
Re: The *real* cost of an Efika
Posted on 22-Nov-2007 14:11:07
#3 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

you could buy a pentium 4 for that....and it would eat it for breakfast...and you could run AROS and linux....

the world is now available in 64bit...this 400mhz neanderthal is not an amiga.

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adiaux 
Re: The *real* cost of an Efika
Posted on 22-Nov-2007 14:41:30
#4 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@MajorOwned

Quote:
I.e. What's missing? case/power supply? and as one of its selling points is its price does anyone know what the absolute cheapest way of having a full system would be?


The board contains CPU and memory soldered on (and it comes bundled with a PCI to AGP riser card). For "desktop use" you will need to add a power supply (preferably low Watt), graphics card and a 2.5" HDD. A case of some kind can be nice, it's up to you (and if you don't buy the premade custom case for the Efika, you will have to come up with a solution yourself if you want one). For server usage you can optionally drop the GFX card out of the equation. For terminal/thin client use you can optionally drop the HDD.

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Zardoz 
Re: The *real* cost of an Efika
Posted on 22-Nov-2007 14:50:58
#5 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@eniacfoa

The Efika is an embedded platform. It is not meant to be used for desktop purposes, it's meant for embedded application and perhaps thin clients. A P4 will it it for breakfast (as will a cheap Athlon 64 + cheap mobo) but those are not embedded boards and as such cannot serve the purpose the Efika serves. Agreed, it is slow to be used as an Amiga (although it'd still be an upgrade from some people's classics with PPC cards).

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Drako 
Re: The *real* cost of an Efika
Posted on 22-Nov-2007 17:31:56
#6 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Aug-2005
Posts: 223
From: Poland/Chelm

@Zardoz

MorphOS on Efika run fast :)

http://amigagatchat.free.fr/alchimie7/videos/

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CodeSmith 
Re: The *real* cost of an Efika
Posted on 22-Nov-2007 18:22:54
#7 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@Drako

The question one should ask themselves with regard to speed is, how fast do the things I want to do run? It's one thing to type up a few letters or browse the web (and I have no doubt that the Efika has enough horsepower to do that). It's quite another to do video editing, mp3 encoding, raytracing or any other CPU intensive tasks. It doesn't matter how fast MOS runs, it's still going to take the Efika 5 minutes to encode the MP3 that it would take a Mac or PC 5 seconds to.

Think before buying: is the computer going to be mostly waiting for stuff to happen (bytes to come over the wire or fingers to press keys), or is it going to be number crunching most of the time? If it's the second, unless you don't mind waiting around, you're going to want to buy something a lot faster than an Efika.

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pixie 
Re: The *real* cost of an Efika
Posted on 22-Nov-2007 20:30:46
#8 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 3307
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@CodeSmith

When your system still keeps as responsive as ever, does time really matter?

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Kicko 
Re: The *real* cost of an Efika
Posted on 22-Nov-2007 20:34:25
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2004
Posts: 5009
From: Sweden

@pixie

I believe he likes to do more then use the system. 3rd party cpuhungry apps :)

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CodeSmith 
Re: The *real* cost of an Efika
Posted on 23-Nov-2007 7:36:10
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@Kicko

Exactly!

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Hammer 
Re: The *real* cost of an Efika
Posted on 23-Nov-2007 8:26:43
#11 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5863
From: Australia

Quote:

Zardoz wrote:
@eniacfoa

The Efika is an embedded platform. It is not meant to be used for desktop purposes, it's meant for embedded application and perhaps thin clients. A P4 will it it for breakfast (as will a cheap Athlon 64 + cheap mobo) but those are not embedded boards and as such cannot serve the purpose the Efika serves. Agreed, it is slow to be used as an Amiga (although it'd still be an upgrade from some people's classics with PPC cards).

Depends on the embedded market e.g. bank teller machines, electric billboards and 'etc'. Note the public display of Windows BSOD/shutdown/reboot screens.

Last edited by Hammer on 23-Nov-2007 at 08:31 AM.

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Chain-Q 
Re: The *real* cost of an Efika
Posted on 23-Nov-2007 9:06:06
#12 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Jan-2005
Posts: 824
From: Budapest, Hungary

@eniacfoa
Quote:
you could buy a pentium 4 for that.... (...) this 400mhz neanderthal is not an amiga.

Indeed, it's not an Amiga. But it's fun. Much more fun *to me* than any Pentium 4 ever will be. Remember, when computing was fun? I think, Efika won't be a primary desktop machine for anyone. However, if you already have another computer - which most of us already do - it can perfectly serve as a hobby machine.

For example, it allows me to have a MorphOS machine at work or when i travell. I just drop it in a bag, and there we go. And it's much more useable than WinUAE on the 3500+ Athlon64 at work. And it's much more useable (simply due to the amount of apps available) than any AROS version, running on whatever powerful machine, to date.

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Hammer 
Re: The *real* cost of an Efika
Posted on 23-Nov-2007 9:43:45
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 5863
From: Australia

@Chain-Q

Quote:
For example, it allows me to have a MorphOS machine at work or when i travell. I just drop it in a bag, and there we go. And it's much more useable than WinUAE on the 3500+ Athlon64 at work.


Industry analyst Gartner reports that the globe's major PC builders have shipped more laptops than desktop PCs for the first time

http://www.tech.co.uk/computing/mobile-computing/notebooks-and-tablet-pcs/news/laptop-shipments-outnumber-desktops-in-us?articleid=187792896

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Zardoz 
Re: The *real* cost of an Efika
Posted on 23-Nov-2007 10:03:56
#14 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@Hammer

Quote:
Depends on the embedded market e.g. bank teller machines, electric billboards and 'etc'. Note the public display of Windows BSOD/shutdown/reboot screens.


Never said that x86 isn't used for embedded stuff.

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adiaux 
Re: The *real* cost of an Efika
Posted on 23-Nov-2007 10:13:30
#15 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@CodeSmith

First, the Amiga (in any flavor) is *not* a viable desktop system in 2007. In fact, it never really was; it had a hard time competing on the desktop market in the early 90's already, and stopped being an option altogether in around 1997. Who in their right mind (and I'm talking about *real* and professional desktop users, not Amiga Nerds trying to do things on Amiga just for the sake of it) would even consider doing raytracing, video editing, etc on an Amiga instead of Windows or Mac? The apps are pre-historic compared to what's being used today (if you can find any apps at all, that is) and the underlying OS severely lacks features that are mandatory in a desktop OS. That's why I found your comment a little funny. And on top of that you make it sound like a normal user constantly runs their CPU on 100% 24/7 and having to wait for things to happen. That is not the case, and you know it.

If you need a desktop you use Windows or Mac. If you need a server you use Linux or Unix. Period. Those OS's has everything needed for what they are intended for, they run on hardware that has enough power for what they are intended for, and they have all the state of the art applications (developed by third party companies that's providing developing budgets comparable to the GNP of a small country) that sets the standards within their respective areas of use.

The MorphOS (read: any Amiga flavor) strength is its leanness, its resource efficiency. MorphOS is able to provide unique user experience when it comes to snappiness on extremely cheap 400MHz hardware. This is the strength that one should capitalize on, and the only area I can identify where Amiga has even a slight chance of commercial success. And this is exactly the reason to why all the ongoing discussions about x86 and desktop usage is so utterly pointless. And not only pointless, it can also be dangerous. If you are not able to identify what Amiga is, and what it is *not*, what Amiga can be, and what it *can't* be, then you risk focusing your development efforts on the wrong areas. Migrating to powerful x86 hardware, adding true multi user support, true SMP support, true memory protection, etc will *not* turn the Amiga into a serious option on desktop/server markets that people will seriously consider! No, the only thing actions like this will accomplish will be to *destroy* the single remaining strength and the single remaining purpose of the Amiga - it will no longer be a lean, snappy OS that runs fine on low power hardware, it will be an OS with desktop features (in some senses at least) but *without* being an option on the desktop market, or an OS with server features without being an option on the server market. But - and this is *important* - it will *also no longer* be an OS that provides a snappy user experience on cheap 400MHz SoC's, so you would have ended up with nothing! You will wake up realizing that you shot yourself in the foot, and destroyed the last outpost for the Amiga in the process.

CodeSmith, if you want to do video editing or raytracing you use *real* apps on *real* desktop OS's, using *real* desktop hardware. The same goes for server usage. It's as simple as that, and Amiga is not part of it (and will never be)!

The 5200B (Efika1) and 440ep (SAM) are indeed no power horses compared to an x86 desktop system, and they have never been intended too be that either. The interesting thing about them is their System on Chip design, offering a much tighter integration on CPU core, buses and controllers, thus reducing the cost (at least in the Efika's case, IMHO Acube destroyed this feature by making their hardware overly complex) and improving the speed of data shoveling which is an important aspect to the general performance. It has been reported (I haven't seen this myself) that thanks to innovative use of system resources, the Efika appears to be able to SW decode and play back full size MPEG-2 video in real time without loosing frames, using ~90% CPU power. From a *user experience* perspective (from general usage, which is not the same as CPU benchmarking of course); running MorphOS on an Efika1 is fully comparable to a Pegasos1/AmigaOne running a 600MHz G3 according to several "witnesses". This is not bad, is it? And the idea to move some GUI operations away from the CPU and into the 3D hardware of the GFX cards instead does not only open up for exciting new eye candy effects (and thus an *even better* user experience), it also speeds things up even more!

This is what Amiga is about; leanness, efficiency and creative use of available system resources and features, thus turning a SoC chip that only costs a few dollars and consumes 2 Watts into a general user environment that's from a snappiness Point of View is comparable to (or even beats) Windows Vista or MacOSx running on their state of the art x86 power-hardware.

This is where Amiga shines! This is where Amiga can have a commercial future (if anywhere)! The single user environment, single CPU, no memory protection, etc (ie some of the core things preventing it from moving towards a desktop/server OS feature wise (not counting the *complete* lack of essential applications or support from the SW developers providing them)) is part of what makes this possible, hence these things should be considered as *features* instead of *lack of features* among developers, something to *keep* instead of destroying.

The Efika (5200B) is an evaluation platform, something to get started on with this "just enough computing", something to develop (and show off) OS's on as well as SW applications. It has never been the end goal, just a starting point.

The "Efika 2" (5121e) will be where the fun begins for real. A lot more things integrated, like 2D/3D graphics, SATA+PATA, faster memory controller, USB2, better DMA, etc. This is where the harvesting begins for real!

This is where Amiga makes sense!

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dimitros 
Re: The *real* cost of an Efika
Posted on 23-Nov-2007 12:03:17
#16 ]
Member
Joined: 20-Jan-2006
Posts: 28
From: Unknown

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
This is where Amiga shines! This is where Amiga can have a commercial future (if anywhere)! The single user environment, single CPU, no memory protection, etc (ie some of the core things preventing it from moving towards a desktop/server OS feature wise (not counting the *complete* lack of essential applications or support from the SW developers providing them)) is part of what makes this possible, hence these things should be considered as *features* instead of *lack of features* among developers, something to *keep* instead of destroying.


This is nonsense, you are trying to market "lack of features" as "features". When was the last time you spent money on a product explicitly because it had less features than it's competition? We should just admit weakness to follow the advancements of technology instead of pretending that we don't need them.

Memory protection is an essential requirement for any OS since years. Multi user support also and multi cpu will be very soon too.

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adiaux 
Re: The *real* cost of an Efika
Posted on 23-Nov-2007 13:29:06
#17 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@dimitros

Quote:
This is nonsense, you are trying to market "lack of features" as "features".


Not really, rather pointing out a few (of many) key things that *leads* to the main features and selling points of Amiga in 2007; leanness, small footprint, resource efficient, running *happily* on *very* low specced hardware, etc.

If you keep adding all the things that makes Windows what it is (or MacOS what it is), then you will end up with a new "Windows" or something very much alike, but you will neither have the momentum nor the support as Windows has (hence nobody will use it, since it's redundant), and it will only be possible if you spend a similar amount of money during a similar amount of time as was spent in order to bring Windows to where it is today, and you will have lost the benefits of Amiga (see above, you can't have it all) in the process.

We *already have* Windows (which is *the established world standard* in desktop computing) and MacOS (for those wanting an alternative). Why make another? Why even consider it? Why even think thoughts in that direction?

(But please note that while MorphOS isn't a plausible desktop OS for the broad public, nothing prevents Amiga Nerds from using it as such! And while the Efika isn't a plausible desktop computer, nothing prevents Amiga Nerds from using it as such either (as long as you can live with the limitations of course). MorphOS on Efika is not a bad deal at all for an old Amigan! )

Quote:
When was the last time you spent money on a product explicitly because it had less features than it's competition?


I'm sorry, but you don't seem to have a realistic view of what Amiga is, what it is not, what it can be, what it can not be, where it can go, where it can't go, where it should go, where it shouldn't go, *hence* you have no idea of what features are "good features" in order to go there, in order to compete with those already there (if any), in fact, you don't even have an idea of what the competition consists of (if anything).

I don't mean that in a patronizing way at all, it's just that you (and most other people here) seems to be having this weird, woolly, purple shimmering view of Amiga, a hallucination consisting both of a good dose nostalgia (sometimes a kind of nostalgia that isn't even spawned from real history but rather some kind of romantic fantasies that has grown totally wild for over a decade) mixed together with a delusional view of what a plausible Amiga future looks like, which turns out to be nothing but a Wintel ripoff in the end, complete with x86/MHz/whatever hysteria and all, that can be summed up in: "It's Windows but Amiga".

Quote:
We should just admit weakness to follow the advancements of technology instead of pretending that we don't need them.


What weakness? Being different is not necessarily a bad thing, most often differentiation is what takes to stand out and succeed on the market you target. I can see how memory protection is essential in Windows, Mac and Linux, but why would Amiga need it when Amiga is going elsewhere (especially when including certain things could even *prevent* it from going there)?

Quote:
Memory protection is an essential requirement for any OS since years. Multi user support also and multi cpu will be very soon too.


Different purposes, different OS's, different requirements altogether.

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Jupp3 
Re: The *real* cost of an Efika
Posted on 23-Nov-2007 13:59:24
#18 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1225
From: Unknown

@dimitros

Quote:
This is nonsense, you are trying to market "lack of features" as "features". When was the last time you spent money on a product explicitly because it had less features than it's competition?

That (kind of) applies to "Choosing Apple product instead of competitor".

But of course it's different. (f.ex) MacOS doesn't lack features becouse they couldn't be made, but becouse some people decided that they aren't needed, and thus shouldn't be offered as an option.

And yes, MacOS X is a huge improvement since the Macintosh Classic times. There's finally proper shell as standard and so on. But still I find it way too restricted in many ways. If something stops working, it's usually practically impossible to start looking for a reason, just becouse clever people thought that "It should work always anyway"

One friend of mine told that it still isn't possible to show file sizes in file browser windows which is quite strange indeed .

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Chain-Q 
Re: The *real* cost of an Efika
Posted on 23-Nov-2007 14:24:54
#19 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Jan-2005
Posts: 824
From: Budapest, Hungary

@Hammer
Quote:
Industry analyst Gartner reports that the globe's major PC builders have shipped more laptops than desktop PCs for the first time

So what. I have a laptop too, thank you. But that thing can't run apps i need better than my Efika.

_________________
MorphOS, classic Amiga, demoscene, and stuff
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"Strip the Amiga community of speculation and we can fit every forum on a 720k floppy" (by resle)

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Chain-Q 
Re: The *real* cost of an Efika
Posted on 23-Nov-2007 14:31:47
#20 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Jan-2005
Posts: 824
From: Budapest, Hungary

@dimitros
Quote:
Memory protection is an essential requirement for any OS since years.

And that's simply not true. I work as a software developer, and i develop for a system which has a multitasking OS with heavy multimedia capabilities, but no memory protection. Well, at least nothing beyond the level of any Amiga-like system. And it's one of the best selling system on its market segment nowadays. (Hint: ever heard about gaming consoles?) And the fact that i'm somewhat familiar with programming to Amiga-like systems (so debugging and using a non-memory protected system) is a *HUGE* advantage for me in my everyday job.

The other good example of a widespread non-memory protected system is VxWorks. Well, latest version has memory protection, but it's still optional, and runs on MMU-less processors too (yes, such ones still exist, and widely used). Still VxWorks was considered stable enough to power spacecrafs like the Mars-rovers Spirit and Opportunity, and more.

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