@Trezzer

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Playstation was not an established brand

What makes you think this will not be an advantage now and for the long run? And it's not that the other competing brandnames are weak (Nintendo is a strong brand, Microsoft now has over half a decade of console experience as well and bought some high pofile gaming companies).

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And finally even that looks sort of bad - notice the trend in the graph? Of course that can still change but... It should have been shooting up like the PS2.

IMO the PS3 for now is doing well enough in Japan, actually the XBox 360 needed to build up some critical mass within Japan, which Microsoft completely failed to accomplish. Actually the console is performing worse than they did with the first XBox. Now the PS3 just arrived in Japan and the battle is already lost, the PS3 is able to do about anything the XBox 360 does for the Japanese and some more.

For the US and the UK the XBox 360 has been able to build up critical mass, but globally considering the original XBox is already retired actual growth is not larger than the yearly expansion of the home console gaming market.

For the long run the year headstart may well work in the XBox 360's disadvantage, at least from a technological standpoint. The HDTV gaming-era breakthrough isn't fully here yet as we can also judge from very good non-HD game console sales (the very old [ps2] as well as new [Wii] significantly outperforming the XBox 360).

Last edited by MikeB on 21-Mar-2007 at 09:55 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 21-Mar-2007 at 09:54 PM.

@MikeB

Oh I am not saying that a brand name is a bad thing. In fact it should be a good thing - especially considering the current Playstation market. In fact it should mean that people were going crazy and buying the machines. But only a tiny fraction have done so.

I am sure it will pick up eventually, but the question is whether it can measure up to the Wii.

The 360 is not big in Japan and it will be an extremely hard struggle for Microsoft to make it that. At least they are selling more per month at this point than at the same period in the original Xbox's lifetime. In fact they are selling more by a factor of 3 to 4. That's still a long way from being successful, but at least it's a step in the right direction.

Anyway... Japan is not the crucial market it once was. It's still a big market, but not so big that it will make or break a console world-wide. You can compare PS3 to Xbox 360 in Japan all you want if you want to make the PS3 look good, but that's just not enough. Let's see what the numbers are like world-wide in a few months from now. And as you point out next Christmas is when it starts to get really interesting.

Wii will most likely continue to completely annihilate both competitors, while PS3 takes a respectable third place in Japan behind DS and Wii. The US is likely to have 360 come out on top and Europe... well, your guess is as good as mine.

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Last edited by tomazkid on 21-Mar-2007 at 10:23 PM.

@Trezzer

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If we look at one of the "losers" in the last generation, see how PS3 stacks up against GameCube in Japan.

The GameCube was cheap (vs the PS3 is currently pretty expensive for the average gamer) and the Nintendo 64 had been retired (vs the PS2 is outselling the competition), so considering this I think a quicker initial uptake by Nintendo fans is pretty normal.

Maybe some of you guys honestly think I am more biased than you guys yourself are, but I am not am not a Playstation fanboy (I am more interested in the Cell). Yes, I discussed earlier gaming platforms on forums in the past, stating that I believed the PS2 would do very well and the DVD drive was a good choice in reply to some people thinking otherwise, I also thought the Nintendo Wii controller is a good novelty and I stated the Nintendo DS showed much potential (actually so does the PSP, Kudos to Sony for doing this well, a market dominated by Nintendo for years), was I really wrong back then? I am not saying I am right now, but try to set your personal feelings and preferences asside for a while and maybe what I am stating within these threads isn't just complete and utter ####...

Xbox 360 lost Japan for sure (I mean, it will stay there but it will be a distant, distant third), but isn't the U.S. much bigger market than Japan? Shouldn't we be looking at these too:

http://www.vgcharts.org/aconscomps.php?name1=PS3&name2=X360&type=0&align=1

http://www.vgcharts.org/aconscomps.php?name1=PS3&name2=X360&type=0&align=0

@jtsiren

Yes, the US like was the case with the original XBox is the XBox 360's strongest market.

Cumulative chart IMO provides a clearer perspective:
http://www.vgcharts.org/aconscomps.php?name1=PS3&name2=X360&type=2&align=0

@MikeB

Cumulative chart gives us another perspective, but clearer not necessarily. We know there was initial demand, it was expected. What is important to note is the waning interest in PS3 and its inability to keep the buzz going (unlike Wii) and that Microsoft had supply issues far longer than Sony (due to global launch). This is the new PlayStation for crying out loud, the most anticipated gaming product in years according to hype - not the underdog that is (was?) Xbox 360. PS3 should have sold a lot better. Maybe it will do that huge leap, say, next Christmas, but the way its sales figures are shaping up for early this year is nothing to write home about.

It will be interesting to see how Europe received this with the higher pricing and all. I will likely still get one come Friday, like I said my console gaming doesn't depend on any market figures and PS3 will for sure get some interesting exclusive games to make it worth my while, but if we are to look at PS3's successes, say the relative success in Japan (can you really call that success though?), we must also look at the areas where is is lagging.

Clearly PS3 did not launch quite as expected. Maybe it will in Europe?

@jtsiren

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What is important to note is the waning interest in PS3

I think the propaganda levels are already dropping. There was propaganda well ahead of the PS3's launch, even before the XBox 360 launch. For the PS2 we saw the same behaviour from mostly Dreamcast and Nintendo fanboys.

We have a saying in Dutch which goes like: The tallest trees catch the most wind.

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inability to keep the buzz going

Huh? The European and global launch is highly anticipated and I'll predict is going to beat the XBox 360 launch.

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Christmas, but the way its sales figures are shaping up for early this year is nothing to write home about

Which other company was able to sell well over 2 million games consoles at this price point in only two major markets within a similar timeframe?

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Clearly PS3 did not launch quite as expected. Maybe it will in Europe?

Maybe your expectations were unrealistic, far more so than mine. I don't think people should get angry that my predictions and expectations are closer to reality than their's.

Last edited by MikeB on 21-Mar-2007 at 11:35 PM.

@MikeB

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Maybe your expectations were unrealistic, far more so than mine. I don't think people should get angry that my predictions and expectations are closer to reality than their's.

Perhaps in an alternate universe somewhere.

It is good to hear that you are not full of yourself at least.

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Huh? The European and global launch is highly anticipated and I'll predict is going to beat the XBox 360 launch.

It should not be hard to do since the supplies are much greater at this point and this is not a world-wide launch.

Last edited by Trezzer on 21-Mar-2007 at 11:42 PM.

@Trezzer

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It should not be hard to do since the supplies are much greater at this point and this is not a world-wide launch.

I agree it won't be hard at all, but take into consideration Sony entertainment also has worldwide PS2 and PSP shipments to take care of. Microsoft only has to deal with the XBox 360.

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Perhaps in an alternate universe somewhere. It is good to hear that you are not full of yourself at least.

I just thought you guys shouldn't speak for others. You had your expectations and I had mine.

@MikeB

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Which other company was able to sell well over 2 million games consoles at this price point in only two major markets within a similar timeframe?

Uhm, Nintendo did it in a single territory with the Wii (North America).

That it is in two major markets does not make it any more impressive than in three markets - in the latter case the supply levels and logistics make it harder to do a successful launch. In the case of the Xbox 360 it had never been done before. Nintendo managed to pull it off far better - in the US they have outsold PS3 2:1 and in Japan it is even higher.

The main issue here is that PS3s are out there - and while they are selling, they are not selling at the expected volumes. It will be interesting to see the results of the European launch.

@MikeB

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I agree it won't be hard at all, but take into consideration Sony entertainment also has worldwide PS2 and PSP shipments to take care of. Microsoft only has to deal with the XBox 360.

Uhm, first of all the PS2 supply chain is up and running. That is not a factor.

Secondly it was because of component shortages that 360 did not sell better than it did. You can call it a premature launch, but at least it sold through for months and months. In fact it was pretty much impossible to find a machine till April or May in most places - well, except Japan.

@Trezzer

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Uhm, Nintendo did it in a single territory with the Wii (North America).

I know you hate this, but I will use bold to clarify the question.

"Which other company was able to sell well over 2 million games consoles at this price point in only two major markets within a similar timeframe?"

Look selling 10,000 $8000 1080p beamers is harder than selling 10,000 $400 TVs. Just an example to understand what I am talking about. Yes, people prefer the beamer if the prices were swapped...

@Trezzer

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Secondly it was because of component shortages that 360 did not sell better than it did.

At first there were major technical difficulties with XBox 360s and units had to be replaced (thus shortages?), maybe that's why the actual sales figures did not correspond with Microsoft's shipping figures (retailers replacing faulthy units from their stock). Currently there are still major technical difficulties reported here in the Netherlands like I pointed out to you earlier, hopefully these faulty units will soon be replaced by Microsoft, so far they have been reluctant.

Last edited by MikeB on 22-Mar-2007 at 12:55 AM.

@MikeB

Well, that is easy. No-one because all consoles at this price point have flopped.

@MikeB

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At first there were major technical difficulties with XBox 360s and units had to be replaced (thus shortages?), maybe that's why the actual sales figures did not correspond with Microsoft's shipping figures.

There were not major technical difficulties - no more than at your average console launch. They had an issue securing enough RAM because of low yields IIRC.

And no, sold != repaired/replaced. Again keep the logistics in mind: Considering that the machine launched in three markets there were more units in transit at any given time.

Let us hope the Dutch consumers see their issues solved. I find it odd that I have not heard about it from anyone else except the show you linked to. I know lots of people with 360s and none have had those issues. I am the only one who has had the console replaced and several of my friends have launch 360s.

Last edited by Trezzer on 22-Mar-2007 at 12:18 AM.

@Trezzer

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I find it odd that I have not heard about it from anyone else except the show you linked to.

Maybe you were looking too hard to find anything to use against the PS3 instead?

"If you plan on renting your Xbox 360 Games from GameFly you might want to be careful with those games. They decided that too many games are getting scratched and I am sure that they cannot afford losing that many games, so each person will be allowed one scratched game and after that you are paying for it! Maybe Microsoft will soon fix the Hitachi-LG GDR-3120L DVD drive since this is an obvious problem."

"Several members from GameSHOUT are getting fedup with Xbox 360 defects. According to Microsoft, they will not refund or replace discs that are scratched from the Xbox 360 video game console. "

"I took out my game and checked it over and the 360 had totally ruined my game! It looks like someone took a pencil with the eraser side down [covered with sand paper] and touched the disk while spinning it! There is a perfect circle around the center of the disk and it prevents it from working on certain missions."

"A growing number of Xbox 360 customers are reporting having problems with their disc's getting scratched by the DVD drive when switching the unit's position from vertical to horizontal and vise versa.. Initially we thought this was the usual fanboy vs. hater propaganda that swirls around the launch of any new console like this. It didn't take long until the seriousness of the situation reared it ugly head right here in the Llamma's shop. I personally have experienced this issue not once but twice already. "

"My Xbox 360 has been leaving scratches on my discs. On some of my discs it is leaving small scratches which don't effect gameplay at all. On one of my discs, which happens to be Halo 2, has left a large, deep, circular scratch around my disc. Now my game is unplayable," EthanDM said. "Supposedly Microsoft will not cover my game, but they say they can take my Xbox 360 to run tests and fix what they can. This Xbox 360 has really ticked me off, it also randomly freezes and crashes."

You're welcome.

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I am the only one who has had the console replaced and several of my friends have launch 360s.

You are not alone, but sadly many problems seem to occur after warranty runs out.

BBC February 2007 Report

Last edited by MikeB on 22-Mar-2007 at 12:55 AM.

Taking notice of what I wrote above, do we really want to worry about scratched discs 10 years into the future (if HD DVD against the odds become the standard)? OK, even if you don't acknowledge that the vast additional space on a Blu-Ray disc may indeed be beneficial to future (and current games like Resistance and Motorstorm) games to which I don't agree to at all, isn't at least the scratch resistance of Blu-Ray discs more than enough reason to back the new more sophisticated format? No more worries about scratched movies or game discs!

Scratching seems more relevant to the XBox 360 platform than other gaming platforms, like for instance the PS2 or Nintendo Wii, yet I notice the most anti-Blu-Ray propaganda from this userbase. Comments like Blu-Ray is the new betamax and thus the PS3 will fail! Even *if* Blu-Ray as a movie format would fail (which certainly doesn't seem to be the case) why should Blu-Ray make the PS3 a failure or even using the technology a bad idea? Some PS2 and XBox 360 games already come supplied on more than one DVD, do you really think future high definition games will not grow past DVD's storage limitations (of which some already have this early into the game)?

Last edited by MikeB on 22-Mar-2007 at 01:16 AM.

@MikeB

Well the problem certainly seems real enough. I guess it's just a relatively low percentage that has the issue. My drive is the same kind and I have had no scratches.

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You are not alone, but sadly many problems seem to occur after warranty runs out.

Oh I'd never buy a product at this price without also getting an extended warranty.

I was just reading through C&VG btw:

Ridge Racer 7:
"But most of what we've talked about is in the PSP games. So what do you get for buying it on your £425 super console? Nicer graphics is the first thing, of course. Although, we must say that it may look the same as RR6 on 360, but our side-by-side comparisons revealed slightly inferior lighting effects. Rave City in particular looks so much better lit on the 360 game. Strange."

@MikeB

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isn't the scratch resistance more than enough reason to back the new more sophisticated format? No more worries about scratched movies or game discs!

Maybe I'd care about it if I had a problem with it. In all of my collection I have only had one cd that was problematic (bought second hand) that I had to put through a cleaner. Then that worked too.

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do you really think future high definition games will not grow past DVD storage limitations?

Oh that is entirely possible of course. I doubt that it will be the standard any time soon though. I mean: Look at Bioware's insanely gorgeous and huge Mass Effect. It fits on a dvd. Very few companies make games the size of Bioware's. We have Blue Dragon but that is certainly an exception and since the game seems to be linear enough to support it you just have to swap discs three times over a 50+ hour game. I don't know about you, but I can't really manage to get upset about that.

Now don't get me wrong: More storage is good. It's always good. But there's cost and performance to factor in too, and at least in 2x Blu-Ray is a tad too slow offering around what dvds have on their second layer on the inner part of the disc whereas all other parts of the disc are way faster (especially the first layer).

That also brings us to "you can install on a harddrive" - yeah, but then what's the point *really*? Why should you 1. have to bother with the install process and 2. have to install to speed up loading times that are otherwise too long?

And since the Blu-Ray is a big part of why the PS3 is too expensive (counter-arguments aside), going for dvd might not have been such a bad idea after all. On the other hand the PS3 would have had too little to differentiate itself in the first place then I suppose. Maybe they should have upgraded the GPU and put dvd in there - then it could potentially have performed as well as expected.