@LoneHaranguer

Quote:

I, for one, am very interested in Amiga OS 5. It runs on phones,

But what added value does AmigaOS5 give me? way do I need it or won't to buy it, what is so unique about go head over heals for it.

Quote:

and as a result has a potentially huge market

That depends on content you deliver, if it's not useful, nor fun then who is going to buy it?

Quote:

I don't care if it runs standalone on a desktop or not. The desktop market isn't long for this world anyway :lol

I agree that thats not where the money is because to many are to concerned whit what type of Windows OS things runs.
(WindowsMobile, WindowsPocketPC, WindowsCE, Windows95/98/NT/200/XP/Vista)

Quote:

On the other hand, how much of a market do you think an OS that only runs on PPC hardware will have?

The same as x86 market, it depends on volume of sold units, it depends on shipment costs from China to the EU/USA and how many units you can produce.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

@takemehomegrandma

Your post doesn't even make sense....

First you say...
Quote:

There are *no* reasons to run rendering software, image processing software, heavy calculating software or any such whatsoever on Amiga, since *NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND* would do this outside Windows with 3D Studio Max, Photoshop, etc. No one would even develop the applications. It's pointless! It's *doomed* to fail. Heck, even MacOS lack application support compared to Windows. Get a grip of reality people!

Then you say...
Quote:

Look at those videos of MorphOS 2.0 running on a 400MHz Efika. 3D games, DVD quality video, 3D desktop, all *extremely* fast. This is kind of unique IMHO. This is where the future is.

But what's the point, as you already pointed out in the first point, "Windows" can already DO all that so who in their "right mind" would use anything else. "Get a grip on reality!"

_________________
A3000D (16mhz, 2MB Chip, 4MB Fast, SCSI (300+MB), SuperGen Genlock, Kick 3.1)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back in my day, we didn't have water. We only had Oxygen & Hydrogen, & we'd just shove 'em together

Quote:

takemehomegrandma wrote: the AHT PPC STB (that was cancelled?), etc, etc

AHT releases their box at CES, it gets posted here.. and YOU posted in this thread!



(I'm guessing the box uses an ARM based microcontroller, not Power Architecture)

Last edited by Darth_X on 12-Jan-2008 at 07:00 AM.

_________________
Men who have girlies in their avatars are Girliemen!

@Manu

Quote:

Manu wrote: @AmigaBlitter What trial ?

Really funny that so many native English speakers don't seem to know that the term "trial" can have the meaning of "court case" as well, and instead make fun of someone from Italy using this word in this context...

meaning of trial

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote: @Manu Quote: Manu wrote: @AmigaBlitter What trial ? Really funny that so many native English speakers don't seem to know that the term "trial" can have the meaning of "court case" as well, and instead make fun of someone from Italy using this word in this context... meaning of trial

I'm going to guess he was "joking". i.e. sarcasm... Meaning how would we possible NOT know there was a trial going on. I don't think he was making fun of the word trial. In the U.S., an English speaking country, we call it a trial too. This might even be considered a trial by fire.

_________________
A3000D (16mhz, 2MB Chip, 4MB Fast, SCSI (300+MB), SuperGen Genlock, Kick 3.1)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back in my day, we didn't have water. We only had Oxygen & Hydrogen, & we'd just shove 'em together

@wegster

Quote:

wegster wrote: @AmigaBlitter ... Not a single company has managed to produce an OS4 capable system that isn't woefully overpriced and underspecced (one of the two is OK, but not both)

Hmmmmmmm - how about one of those:

LimePC

LimePC - ThinPC

LimePC - UMPC

LimePC - HandheldPC

LimePC - PalmPC

LimePC - HDTV

Quote:

wegster wrote: ... But then, even before the court cases, no licenses were being granted, either.

Not sure if a license is neede at all:

Quote:

from Amino/AInc(W) - Hyperion contract: "Target-Hardware" means the PPC based hardware developed and marketed for the Amiga platform including but not limited to the hardware developed and marketed by Phase 5, DCE and the AmigaOne hardware developed by Escena under contract with the Amiga One Partners.

EDIT:
I just reached #37 and noticed "takemehomegrandma" had already linked "LimePC"...

Last edited by Dandy on 12-Jan-2008 at 09:42 AM.
Last edited by Dandy on 12-Jan-2008 at 09:41 AM.

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

takemehomegrandma wrote: @AmigaHeretic ... This is the commercial future of the platform... Desktop MHz isn't the key, it isn't the answer, far from it. ...

While I agree that the platform desperately needs an commercial future, I personally would be extremely unhappy if there wouldn't be Amiga-desktops anymore.

I need an device where I can attach a normal sized (desktop) keyboard, mouse and at least 19"display, as my eyes most likely are NOT going to get better with increasing age.

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

How come each time a thread starts, someone else talk about anything but the topic title?

Last edited by AmigaBlitter on 12-Jan-2008 at 10:04 AM.

_________________
retired

@LoneHaranguer

Quote:

LoneHaranguer wrote: @NutsAboutAmiga I, for one, am very interested in Amiga OS 5. It runs on phones, and as a result has a potentially huge market. I don't care if it runs standalone on a desktop or not. The desktop market isn't long for this world anyway :lol ...

Well, I really don't hope that your eyes get weaker after your 30th or so birthday, given that you only want to do your computing tasks on a cell phone in a world without desktops.

Think about the industry - do you really think you could convince just one single engineer on this planet to do his maschine designing tasks or his container ship designing tasks on a cell phone with it's tiny display?

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@umisef

Quote:

The important thing to realise here is that even getting close to catching up in most of these aspects wouldn't really provide a market --- even if AmigaOS had firefox, ran on a MacMini and G5 Macs, had a roadmap and a committed development company with cash reserves and a track record of delivery, and full memory protection --- it would still lack some convincing reason why anyone beyond a few thousand old-time fans would want to use it. What would set it apart, say, from FreeBSD?

Heh, looks like no one's paid attention to the above..I expected to hear ravings about screens, or similar, like most times 'AOS vs Linux' comes up..

The majority of things setting it apart from *BSD or *nix in general, are mostly negatives, IMHO, but that's from a server standpoint. From a user desktop system perspective, I suppose simplicity (app install/uninstall, system configurability, assigns, etc), size and UI responsiveness..but the negatives of lack of modern apps, no memory protection, etc, all make it an overall negative for anything other than hobby use (which most of us know, anyways).. for embedded/appliance use - who knows? There are handheld devices out nowadays with far more computing power than the original Amigas, and storage of all kinds has dropped in price. It doesn't make sense on a piece of network gear...I guess I'm open to seeing it useful for something commercial/non-hobbyist, but I'll be damned if I know what. Damned Small Linux and other distros are 'small enough' by most standards (sorry, forget the numbers, I think DSL fit in 50-100MB or so?), so the possible advantages in size/footprint are becoming lost, even as storage and memory becomes cheaper, making it somewhat less of any issue regardless. It certainly can't compete 'as is' (including OS4, MOS, AROS at this point) versus Windows media Edition or similar on an STB, either..so..?

Quote:

On the other hand, find something "killer" that people can do on your OS, and that can't be cloned on some other OS in short notice, and lots of people will put up with a heck of a lot of drawbacks to be able to do that one thing. Of course, the plan "step 1: Come up with killer app. step 2: Use killer app to convert plenty of people to AmigaOS. step 3: Profit" has a slightly less well-defined step1 than yours; But at least its step 1 only requires a stroke of genius, not billions of dollars :)

Heh Well, both you and TMHG are both 'right' in this respect. TMHG wants to find a use, in his case it's obviously for MOS, but what might apply to one AOS-like variant pretty much applies to them all (functionally, legal issues and dev teams ignored in this statement..). Were this years ago, maybe it would have been possible to see gamepark build the GP32 based on an AOS-alike OS, instead of Linux. But, they didn't. The LimePC is a cool toy, and while it certainly _could_ run MOS, OS4, and/or AROS - it still comes back to your first point - why SHOULD it run that, instead of Linux, what benefit is it to do so for the user of such a system, other than if they happen to be Amiga fans?

To be realistic, even in the event 'the killer app' is found for AOS-alike systems, using commodity hardware or nearly so, it's likely that any such app developed would soon have open source competition, which would limit the length of time any such killer app would remain valid, to the point of being worth people licensing the OS. Depending on the app, it may be a year, maybe two, and I have no doubt if that were to happen, that additional work would be done on the OS, further improving it, but eventually, it'll lose out, because AOS and AOS-alikes can't compete with the numbers of devs Linux/open source has, nor MS, nor Apple. While a LOT of open source projects stall or don't get off the ground, if it is indeed such a killer app that 'everyone wants it,' I'm fairly confident competition would arise soon enough.

So, what does that leave, really? It's pretty unlikely, even given a killer app, that enough additional work can be done to bring it up to par elsewhere...so we're left with a 'killer app for a niche market that no one cares about enough to attempt to take over the market'?

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:

AmigaBlitter wrote: How come each time a thread starts, someone else talk about anything but the topic title?

I suspect it's because the topic itself does not contain enough substance for any discussion. Nobody of us can stop the lawsuit(s). Period.

@wegster

Quote:

TMHG wants to find a use, in his case it's obviously for MOS, but what might apply to one AOS-like variant pretty much applies to them all

Indeed all three are facing the same challanges, hence I never make a difference between them in these kind of discussions. When I say "AmigaOS" I mean all three, when I say "MorphOS" I mean all three.

Quote:

The LimePC is a cool toy, and while it certainly _could_ run MOS, OS4, and/or AROS - it still comes back to your first point - why SHOULD it run that, instead of Linux, what benefit is it to do so for the user of such a system, other than if they happen to be Amiga fans?

I think it may run a lot smaller and faster than a Linux setup offering the same level of usability and user experience.

Anyway, discussing these kind of questions - what competitive strengths does MorphOS/AmigaOS/AROS really have - is a lot more important and interesting than whining about the lack of quad core x86 and 8800GT support. What Amiga *is* and what it is *not*, where it *can go* and where it *can't go*.

IMHO the Amiga has always been about smart use of very limited resources in order to achieve very impressive results. Back when it started AmigaOS was run on a 7MHz 68000 processor which wasn't a lot even back then (and the competition didn't have anything better either), but it also had copper, blitter, etc at hand, and it had a strong heritage from TRIPOS, so despite the limited CPU power, thanks to lean programming (assembler and C, never C++ AFAIK) smart developers could achieve great results that shocked an industry. So very limited hardware, yet impressive results. Small, lean, efficient, smart and creative. IMHO those are key values in Amiga.

However, many people seems to be having this weird, woolly, purple shimmering view of Amiga, a *hallucination* consisting both of a good dose nostalgia (sometimes a kind of nostalgia that isn't even spawned from *real history* but rather some kind of *romantic fantasies* that has grown totally wild for over a decade) mixed together with a delusional view of what a plausible Amiga future looks like, which turns out to be *nothing but a Wintel ripoff* in the end, complete with x86/MHz/whatever hysteria and all, that can be summed up in: "It's Windows but Amiga". I may be wrong, but this has never been what Amiga is about in my eyes...

While Windows took off and went hand in hand with the x86 development envelope (Vista is "bigger and better" than ever), Amiga has remained what it was; small, lean, efficient, smart and creative. That's what makes Amiga achieve magic on very low power hardware, and that's where the only obvious future is IMHO...

Quote:

So, what does that leave, really? It's pretty unlikely, even given a killer app, that enough additional work can be done to bring it up to par elsewhere...so we're left with a 'killer app for a niche market that no one cares about enough to attempt to take over the market'?

I realize you are talking about the end user desktop market, but I am going to continue with the more "embedded" side of things. On these kind of devices, the "killer app" consists of the hardware, the OS, and the SW mixed together. When you buy a television you (as a consumer) doesn't reflect one second on what OS is running etc, the only thing you care about is the total specifications provided by HW, OS and SW *together*. It's a *device*, not a computer. The same when you buy a STB, a hand held media player, etc. The device is the [killer] application.

But unlike the desktop market, the customers of the OS won't be the end-users, it will be OEM device builders, service providers, etc. They have different set of variables for purchase decisions, that can go beyond pure OS-technological aspects; "Ah I see you can help us with HW design, Ah I see you can provide us with a good firmware, Ah I see that you can provide us with a very capable OS, Ah I see you can provide us with a reference platform and consulting services, Ah I see you have a community of developers and power users in place that can bring a lot of various input to various product developments, Ah I see you can introduce us to the right people at Freescale, Ah I see you can help us with business and market development, Well I must say I consider your licensing terms very reasonable with all this in mind". Also, *one single* OEM purchase decision made by *one man* can result in hundreds of thousands (or even millions) of sales in one single handshake, as opposite to having to pursuade hundreds of thousands (or even millions) of consumers on the end user market to make *one purchase decision each*. See the difference in approach and challanges?

But of course it would help if our OS's was prepared for these kind of things. Build WiFi tools and a Bluetooth stack, maybe even firewire (albeit less important IMHO), touch screen support (limited support already exist in Poseidon AFAIK) with accompanying OS support for other human interface devices than traditional keyboard and mouse (including IR remotes), full DVD support and support for every single important media format in Raggae, TV tuner software with EPG, OSD, Teletext, you name it, make sure that all aspects of the GUI scales nicely between, say 240x400 to full HDTV (and preferably include all the common monitor resolutions as well), etc, etc.

These are areas where at least *I* would like to see some development focus. When MorphOS 2.0 gets released it is kind of "finished" in the sense that it's ready enough for commercial release (albeit there are always room for improvements of course), so the next step should probably be to take a look at that range of LimePC devices (for instance) and ask yourself the question - What would the OS need in order to make the most out these devices and become a serious option for these kind of OEM builders?

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

Amiga has remained what it was; small, lean, efficient, smart and creative. That's what makes Amiga achieve magic on very low power hardware, and that's where the only obvious future is IMHO...

Okay I'll bite if the Amiga is all of that, why aren't people talking her about the smart creative things they are doing with their computers instead of talking about things like:

Who has the IP
Who will win in Court
What is OS 5 (can the Amiga community actually wrap it's usefulness in the community some how)
Is Tigger right about Hyperion's Motives

I am just saying if this community wants to get back to being a community instead of the harbinger of Amiga's demise (as it has been for some years now) we need to get talking about the cool things we do and have done with the machine. We all know history, but what do you do now? I would like to see signs of life in that direction with posts, even if they were AROS and MorphOS folks..

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

If you would want to compete with Windows, your first step would be to make sure you have everything (OS features, Drivers, Applications, etc, EVERYTHING) *at least* on par with Windows. Leveraging the OS to Windows level would take at least as long time as it took for Microsoft to reach to the current level, and it will take the similar amount of investments (billions of dollars).

I questioned this point and you seemed to reinforce it rather than dismiss it - that no-one in their right mind would use Amiga if the big Windows temptation were there alongside. We're just buying this rubbish hardware that won't run Windows in order to shut down nasty thoughts with our fingers in our ears, going "la-la-la".

When you talk about PowerPC, you have your head screwed on. You talk about what you want from a computer. You talk about the Amiga ethos and the Amiga community.

When you move to the subject of x86, you lose track. You start talking about competing with Microsoft, being like Windows, and about this x86 "market", filled with faceless consumers.

This isn't about 'them'.

You can't stereo-type x86 advocates as wanting a new Wintel, feature-parity with Windows, going head to head with Microsoft... We just want a computer for ourselves- the Amiga community. It's pretty simple, really.

Chris

Last edited by clebin on 12-Jan-2008 at 02:32 PM.

@DonnieA2

You're absolutely right. I see a stark contrast with the way the little Haiku community conducts itself. For them, it's all about the future. New ideas, doing things better. It's heartening to see so much positive energy.

Instead, every day another negative "I'm sick of this"-type thread appears. It's time for some people to stop wallowing in the wreckage of their past computing lives and pull themselves together IMHO!

I wish the Amiga community could be half as progressive as Haiku or the smaller AROS branch. I've long felt that only when people buy into the idea of open-source, and being in control of our destiny, will we see positivity and creativity return.

Chris

Last edited by clebin on 12-Jan-2008 at 02:44 PM.

@AmigaBlitter

I think Amiga Inc wants to block the sale of OS4 totally and go to OS5 / AmigaAnywhere.

_________________
X5000 / microA1(OS4.1 FE U2) / CodeBench / Imagine / Blender
Lightwave 2019 / Microsoft Visual C++

@clebin

Please re-ready post #92, especially the last part about who the real customers will be. There is *no* commercial desktop future for AmigaOS, hence desktop class hardware is of no commercial interest for AmigaOS, hence x86 is not relevant. AmigaOS and MorphOS is both PPC. That's what they are. This won't change; it's not a matter of simply changing some flags and recompile, and there is no reason to do this when PPC offers all the opportunity the OS needs.

Quote:

You can't stereo-type x86 advocates as wanting a new Wintel, feature-parity with Windows, going head to head with Microsoft... We just want a computer for ourselves- the Amiga community.

You realize that you are talking about a total user base of perhaps a few hundred people (tops)? This is nothing a commercial venture can live on.

Go ahead and knock yourself out with AROS. Hey, that is both open source and x86, two of "the most important things" according to some of you "x86 advocates". It was here long before both OS4 and MorphOS, it is x86, it is open source, and look what a great success story that one is...

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

Please re-ready post #92, especially the last part about who the real customers will be. There is *no* commercial desktop future for AmigaOS, hence desktop class hardware is of no commercial interest for AmigaOS, hence x86 is not relevant. AmigaOS and MorphOS is both PPC. That's what they are. This won't change; it's not a matter of simply changing some flags and recompile, and there is no reason to do this when PPC offers all the opportunity the OS needs.

Please note that this doesn't mean that there is absolute 0% need for a machine with horsepower; for instance developers that wants to compile large projects natively on PPC etc, as well as some of the few hundred *active* "AmigaNG" powerusers. But there isn't any true market for this, there is no money to be made, hence it would be something of a charity/support action to do this. This is why Genesi hasn't done this a long time ago, it will mean spending money on something that will give nothing in return, and as a very small company they are always reluctant to these kind of things (better spending your limited resources on something that *will* give a return), hence why they have pulled most of the announced projects before the release. Besides, there are still a lot of Pegasos floating around on the second hand market that can fill the gap. Maybe something will come out based on the MPC8610 (which essentially is a "Pegasos2 SoC" with improved memory speed and PCI-e), but probably not...?

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

Indeed all three are facing the same challanges, hence I never make a difference between them in these kind of discussions. When I say "AmigaOS" I mean all three, when I say "MorphOS" I mean all three.

You may want to make that distinction more obvious now and then, it might help with 'abrasion' with some

Quote:

I think it may run a lot smaller and faster than a Linux setup offering the same level of usability and user experience.

I'm not so sure about that. You're right, it well might, I'm thinking mainly in UI responsiveness, but as was pointed out to me once, there are third party replacements for Linux, so you wouldn't be likely to run a full blown X on many devices. DSL is 50MB-ish, and at least a few years back, would still run on a 32MB 33Mhz system:
http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS8272592722.html
http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/

In other words, the rest of the world isn't really standing still waiting for AmigaOS(-likes) to take it by storm. Size and speed were the primary reasons I saw for it to have much of a chance, but I'm unsure that holds true today, or for much longer.

Quote:

However, many people seems to be having this weird, woolly, purple shimmering view of Amiga, a *hallucination* consisting both of a good dose nostalgia (sometimes a kind of nostalgia that isn't even spawned from *real history* but rather some kind of *romantic fantasies* that has grown totally wild for over a decade) mixed together with a delusional view of what a plausible Amiga future looks like, which turns out to be *nothing but a Wintel ripoff* in the end, complete with x86/MHz/whatever hysteria and all, that can be summed up in: "It's Windows but Amiga". I may be wrong, but this has never been what Amiga is about in my eyes...

Yeah, well, some of those same people are also looking for 'Amiga' to suddenly have custom chips that will blow away ATI and Nvidea, as well :-/ Enough said on that one, other than, sure, people want to use it as a desktop still, but I don't think many of us expect that to make real amounts of $, nor to dent Windows/Linux/OSX marketshare in the next 5 years, either

Quote:

I realize you are talking about the end user desktop market, but I am going to continue with the more "embedded" side of things. On these kind of devices, the "killer app" consists of the hardware, the OS, and the SW mixed together. When you buy a television you (as a consumer) doesn't reflect one second on what OS is running etc, the only thing you care about is the total specifications provided by HW, OS and SW *together*. It's a *device*, not a computer. The same when you buy a STB, a hand held media player, etc. The device is the [killer] application.

Actually, I intentionally wasn't distinguishing between them, although I was focusing on software vs hardware or hw + sw. But again, what's left that would make _sense_ for someone to deploy an AOS-like system?

There is one difference, and I suppose it's what Genesi has been _trying_ to do, and it's to provide the whole solution of hw + sw..the problem is, when/if the Efika or Efika 2 is essentially a Freescale reference board, it doesn't open up many people wanting to OE it - why should they, if they can go direct to Freescale? That would leave the 'value added' as the combination of hw + sw, or if the entire system packaging (board, case, display like LimePC, etc) is already completed and ready for market. So far at least, we haven't seen this, instead seen a mistaken reference about LimePC running MOS, or perhaps people thinking it's an 'Efika 2' when it's a Freescale board.

That's not to say they _can't_ get any benefit out of this, or perhaps manage some OE deal in the future, but AFAIK, it hasn't happened to date. I saw the 'media center' Genesi was selling based on the Peg2, and that at least simply wasn't price competitive (I believe it was what, around $2k?). So, again, where's the 'value added' to the equation? It could be in hw that's not someone's reference board, it could be in the packaging included with such hardware (like LimePC, minus OS), or it comes from the OS and apps.

The latter which leads in to your next topic - what can it do for the USERS of a device? Maybe the MOS team has a handful of unreleased apps, or ones I'm not aware of, but currently, I haven't seen any of them using HD tuners, with Bluetooth, touch screen, etc. All of these are certainly doable, but AFAIK don't yet exist, and once they do, the package will still be taken on it's merits, or lack thereof, compared to other available solutions, obviously including those with Linux, Windows Mobile/CE, VxWorks, QNX, etc..so we're still stuck mostly near the start, asking, 'ok, but what would this theoretical system' (PPC + AOS/MOS/AROS) offer an OE _today_ versus the competition?

Honestly, I don't know the answer..it's one that would be interesting to see happen, but I also feel time is getting shorter for this to happen, rather than going on indefinitely keeping some advantage (which I'm unsure I see even today).

*shrug* Then again, maybe the MOS devs will surprise us all, and some new interesting device will blow us all away. Or...AA2 will actually be used for, well, anything except for cheesy games on a handful of PDAs.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@hatschi

The fact that they are so busy in pushing forward OS5, claiming that is an OS better than OSX, small, scalable.... sounds little strange to me. Why they are so interested in OS4, then? Are they really interested?

_________________
retired