Guys,

I posted something on moobunny for the first time in years (I know, I know but they are so angry over there it seemed like a "WTF" was required) - if you're interested the post is on this thead.

Anyway, that wasn't my reason for starting this thread, the reason was because of a comment one of the morons made on there to do with how Amigans, on AW.net and indeed other sites perceive piracy. And to my embarrassment, that aggressive, brainless respondent did get me thinking.

For example. If I was to post say a link on here to a ROM file for Kickstart 1.3 or a game written by a long-gone software house in the 1980's, would that post then be removed and action taken against me regarding posting rights?

If however I made an .iso of OS4.1 and posted that, where there is still commercial interest (i.e. someone making money from the product and with the ability to sue!) then there is certainly a case for taking measures.

On other platforms, I have seen more discretion used for old software titles, where it benefits the community/platform to have these things in the public domain and where other than the webmasters/moderators of this or any forum stepping in and removing a link or hosting company closing a site, who would really (want to) stop us distributing them.

What I am trying to get to is, that ok OS4 on a download from my website, a big no-no for obvious reasons. To my mind a game no longer commercially available hosted as an ADF, fine. But what about the grey area of not ancient but still pretty much unobtainable software or firmware, say OS3.5 or Kickstart 3.1?

The example of Kickstarts maybe that ok, Colanto still sell Amiga Forever so the Kickstart is still commercially a viable thing, but with the question remains, especially as the contracts and IP of all Amiga assets and current rights and ownership are not that clear cut.

How about a rule where we can still play with old stuff, but as a community protect the companies who are trying to keep the platform we enjoy current and more modern?

My rule would be anything is distributable if it is either:

1: Has not been sold (save for 2nd hand) for 5 years (to protect companies from being engineered out of business to reach this 5 year period).
or
2: The company who own the rights to the software or the author has expressed no commercial interest or cannot be contacted by reasonable means.
or
3: The organisations who last held the rights/ownership to the product have ceased trading for at least 5 years (to protect a possible asset sale).
or
4: Several or all of the above.

At the same time there are some wishy washy contracts that could go on forever, whilst the need for nostalgia exists. Just because Hyperion MIGHT poke around in OS3.x or Colanto sell a few dozen Amiga Forevers from time to time, we don't want is like in 10 years time someone posting KICK31.ROM and STILL a moderator pulls down the link, because someone can still buy something vaguely tied to a contract that probably isn't that concrete anyway. That said, there isn't anything wrong with trying to adopting points 1 to 4 as a given when looking at this stuff.

I guess the question is, does abandonware really exist?

_________________
Amiga A1200, 3.1 ROMs, Blizzard 1230 MKIV 64MB & FPU, 4GB DoM SSD, Workbench 3.1

@A1200
I never post link to such even if some see it as abandonware.. But i personally see nothing morally wrong with downloading "pirated" stuff if there is no legal ways for me to buy it legally.

With amiga kickstart roms it is entirely different though, since you can still legally buy them from companies like cloanto.

I have the same thoughts about things like tv series.. Absolutely none of my favorite tv series airs on tv here in Norway and it aint even possible to watch those shows even if you buy any satellite/cabletv package available. My only choice then is to download it illegally, as there is no legal p2p services here or any tv channels that air it. DVD sets are usually released years later if they are released at all, so i see absolutely nothing wrong with it. If i would follow the law then i would not be able to watch tv series at all. I do however buy the dvd sets of series i enjoy if they are ever released in my country.

Last edited by Tomas on 08-Mar-2010 at 07:28 PM.

@Tomas

I know what you mean there. I have all the box sets of Boston Legal on DVD but before they came out, because the UK didn't get the rights to the show when they aired in the USA, we got to see it on our channels months later in fact, I used to watch then via torrents, 24 hours after they had aired in America. Just because I WANT to watch it legitimately but can't am I still a "criminal".

Its funny how we as Amigans are so "anti-piracy" NOW the platform is a faction of what it used to be, yet when the majority of us had tons of copied games in the glory days, no one uttered a word! In fact they do say piracy killed the Amiga...

_________________
Amiga A1200, 3.1 ROMs, Blizzard 1230 MKIV 64MB & FPU, 4GB DoM SSD, Workbench 3.1

@A1200

Quote:

A1200 wrote: Guys, I posted something on moobunny for the first time in years (I know, I know but they are so angry over there it seemed like a "WTF" was required) - if you're interested the post is on this thead. Anyway, that wasn't my reason for starting this thread, the reason was because of a comment one of the morons made on there to do with how Amigans, on AW.net and indeed other sites perceive piracy. And to my embarrassment, that aggressive, brainless respondent did get me thinking. For example. If I was to post say a link on here to a ROM file for Kickstart 1.3

ROM1.3 + Kick1.3 --> Cloanto sells it on license. Who has the rights? AInc or Hyperion, dunno.
So your link would be copyright violation.

Quote:

or a game written by a long-gone software house in the 1980's,

Someone still has its IP rights. They don't just evaporate. At least for bloody lots of time since publishing.
So I would call it violation lite

Quote:

would that post then be removed and action taken against me regarding posting rights?

Should be if the site wants to be 100% legal.
But it also would be kindda pointless, of course only in the latter case.

Quote:

If however I made an .iso of OS4.1 and posted that, where there is still commercial interest (i.e. someone making money from the product and with the ability to sue!) then there is certainly a case for taking measures.

Software IP rights do not depend on their (temporal) economical feasibility.
E.g. trademarks do (at least in EU).

Quote:

On other platforms, I have seen more discretion used for old software titles, where it benefits the community/platform to have these things in the public domain and where other than the webmasters/moderators of this or any forum stepping in and removing a link or hosting company closing a site, who would really (want to) stop us distributing them.

This is not some sort of an outcome or motivation.
It's just a side effect (positive side effect though).

Quote:

What I am trying to get to is, that ok OS4 on a download from my website, a big no-no for obvious reasons. To my mind a game no longer commercially available hosted as an ADF, fine. But what about the grey area of not ancient but still pretty much unobtainable software or firmware, say OS3.5 or Kickstart 3.1?

Kick3.1 --> see: Hyperion/AInc agreement.
EDIT2* or maybe Kick3.1 --> Cloanto only (sublicensed from AInc)
OS3.5 --> was: H&P now ???

Grey area is just a grey area as long as it's grey.
To make it white (or black if you prefer), you should
1) determine IP holder
2) contact it (a company I assume)
3) force a statement it won't execute its material IP rights on specified sw

Then it's clear. Then and only when.

Quote:

The example of Kickstarts maybe that ok, Colanto still sell Amiga Forever so the Kickstart is still commercially a viable thing, but with the question remains, especially as the contracts and IP of all Amiga assets and current rights and ownership are not that clear cut.

EDIT* previously misunderstood part

I am fully aware it's a mess there. I myself try 1) buy anything amiga 2) get it if I'm sure I cannot buy it at all

Quote:

How about a rule where we can still play with old stuff, but as a community protect the companies who are trying to keep the platform we enjoy current and more modern? My rule would be anything is distributable if it is either: 1: Has not been sold (save for 2nd hand) for 5 years (to protect companies from being engineered out of business to reach this 5 year period). or 2: The company who own the rights to the software or the author has expressed no commercial interest or cannot be contacted by reasonable means. or 3: The organisations who last held the rights/ownership to the product have ceased trading for at least 5 years (to protect a possible asset sale). or 4: Several or all of the above.

Nice idea but it's not a law you know

But why 5 years?? In my country software is protected for 70 yrs. Well, that's too long maybe (or is it?) But I'd say for last 25 years is fine to me.

Quote:

At the same time there are some wishy washy contracts that could go on forever, whilst the need for nostalgia exists. Just because Hyperion MIGHT poke around in OS3.x or Colanto sell a few dozen Amiga Forevers from time to time, we don't want is like in 10 years time someone posting KICK31.ROM and STILL a moderator pulls down the link, because someone can still buy something vaguely tied to a contract that probably isn't that concrete anyway. That said, there isn't anything wrong with trying to adopting points 1 to 4 as a given when looking at this stuff. I guess the question is, does abandonware really exist?

Abandonware is a pure urban legend, same as nettiquette is.

Nice thread btw. I'm just done with my weekend IP classes.

M E A T !

Last edited by DiskDoctor on 08-Mar-2010 at 08:08 PM.
Last edited by DiskDoctor on 08-Mar-2010 at 08:03 PM.

_________________
Amiga 1200 + WARP 1260 + AmigaOS 3.2

@A1200

For AW.net's part this is a question of legality first and foremost. From the TOS:

Quote:

Piracy: Software piracy is strictly forbidden and is defined here as "any unauthorised copying or transfer of a computer program in any manner other than what is permitted by copyright law or by the author as stated in the software licensing agreement". This includes, but is not limited to: material protected by patent, copyright, or trade secret. Any person using this site for software piracy will have their account terminated and will be reported to BSA.

We therefore tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to related posts.

Quote:

Its funny how we as Amigans are so "anti-piracy" NOW the platform is a faction of what it used to be, yet when the majority of us had tons of copied games in the glory days, no one uttered a word! In fact they do say piracy killed the Amiga.

Many were kids then and now are adults. That could be part of the reason. Others complain just to complain of course as well.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@A1200
Quote:

Its funny how we as Amigans are so "anti-piracy" NOW the platform is a faction of what it used to be, yet when the majority of us had tons of copied games in the glory days, no one uttered a word! In fact they do say piracy killed the Amiga...

I dont see how anyone can even claim that piracy killed it. Amiga was flourishing until commodore went under due to management issuess. It had loads of new game titles coming out until the very end. The amiga simply died because the owners vanished and the next owners "escom" never really did anything but milk the hardware. The a1200 was already behind pc in many ways when it was first released anyways..

@A1200

Always a touchy subject!

I have a huge amount of commercial software stuck up in my folks loft but I've downloaded (possibly illegal) most of them for WinUAE.

I purchased all my ROM's legally in the form of Amiga Forver. For this reason I see no problem in downloading old software as an ex classic user since I've probably owned it at some point.

However the development of OS4+ signals a new era of software and developers who rely on my support so I'll happily purchase their software, although admittedly the only thing I've purchased since owning OS4 is an MUI key!

(The software in the loft I need to get shut of it's dusty but all boxed so should be OK. If anyone in the Liverpool area can pick it up your welcome to take it - but send me a PM)

Sorry slightly rambling post!

Last edited by Etho on 08-Mar-2010 at 09:35 PM.
Last edited by Etho on 08-Mar-2010 at 09:29 PM.

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¸,ø¤º°`°º¤µ-A1 - 256mb - - Wireless Net - OS4 Final¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

and will be reported to BSA.

Had one of those some years back. Nice bike

@fairlanefastback

Just one question. Why BSA? This is practical a private police made by software corporation. They don't follow due process and try to trick people into traps they setup. They break Polish law and never where accused of wrong doing. They went as far as sponsoring police to "catch as much 'pirates' as they can".

Would you report gun fight to NRA?

_________________
OpenWindows Initiative. Port PS3 hardware to bananas. For free. Join today and receive expired $50 cupon from AI!

@Mechanic

Quote:

Mechanic wrote: @fairlanefastback Quote: and will be reported to BSA. Had one of those some years back. Nice bike

LOL!

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@opi

Quote:

opi wrote: @fairlanefastback Just one question. Why BSA? This is practical a private police made by software corporation. They don't follow due process and try to trick people into traps they setup. They break Polish law and never where accused of wrong doing. They went as far as sponsoring police to "catch as much 'pirates' as they can". Would you report gun fight to NRA?

No idea actually. I'm sure the selection was made with good intentions, beyond that I can't speak to why as it was written into the TOS long ago as I understand it. Do you have a better suggestion as an alternative? I'm happy to ask in the mod forum if you'd like.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

Do you have a better suggestion as an alternative?

This is really hard question IMHO. We're international website. Copy infringement is (even if software lobby would like to have it changed) to be determined by civil case. I would, if I would own AW, edit post pointing to illegal copy and ban user. That would be all. If someone would try to sell pirated software (that is a different thing from just sharing stuff, like prostitution. It's legal to be prostitute, it's illegal to be pimp) I would point it to copyright holder. Maybe.

_________________
OpenWindows Initiative. Port PS3 hardware to bananas. For free. Join today and receive expired $50 cupon from AI!

I guess it all depends on your perspective.

The great majority of my programming is available freely, without cost, but with other conditions attached.. Some cannot be used in commercial projects without some arrangement being made.. and some can be used commercially.
Some of my software is only available with a paid license.

I believe that I have the right to determine the conditions of distribution for my own works, and if I found someone selling or posting copies of it without proper permission, I would have good reason to be upset.
How long ago I wrote the software really doesn't make a difference. It's still mine, and I still have the right to determine how it is distributed.

I try to show the same respect for other peoples works as I expect for my own.

LyleHaze

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