Here are my two cent about the software development situation on OS4.x
With this post i don't want to blame nobody for their (hard) work. Just post my thoughts related to some development aspects that are not clear for me and, probably, for many other.

The TimberWolf port for Amiga is for sure one of the most notably piece of software today on OS 4.x. Although in alpha stage, it shows the capability and possibility of how a software can perform on OS4.x even on a low end system (Sam440 533) or g3 system.

Remarkable work, really. I think however, and correct me if i'm wrong, that at the moment this is not the thing we need for Amiga OS. OWB work quite good and improving and growing release after release, as well as NetSurf. I was and i am one of the quite excited supporter of the Timberwolf development. I sponsored Timberwolf in the way that I could, just with a video (http://www.youtube.com/user/AmigaBlitter#p/a/u/0/hvU4EY1sruQ). I have
recently changed my mind about that. Yes, i want that the development of Timberwolf
continue, and i want encourage that who can donate continue donating to the project. What's my point then? I think that the OS4 core system development is more important. Imagine that you are about to unveil the x1000 or Sam460 at one of the upcoming public demonstrations.

What would you show? Timberwolf on alpha or beta stage? How will perform? Good, i think, althought you will not free to let the user to navigate to their favorite web site at your own risk. Do you want to show a game? The game will perform quite well, no doubt. 1,8 GHZ are good enough to play at high framerate. Ask yourself one thing: will the game run as fast as it should really perform? May graphics glitches occurs? May the game freezes?
Show a native OS4 apps. I thinked about "cinnamon writer" It's in alpha stage too. It's a promising application. The author is doing a good work. Do you think that someone could appreciate the app looking i.e. at scrolling speed? Maybe. Cygnix? Will be fast on x1000, considering that is usable on Sam440 or old generation A1. We don't need to rack one's brains to find applications to show to the large public, we need to show good, stable applications that run on a stable and up to date system. Actually OS4 need a rewrite of the graphic subsystem. This will boost the majority of the applications, Timberwolf included.

Games will receive benefits too. What about the USB stack? Can you attach your favorite usb disk or storage key to your OS4 system? Can you copy or write a file without pain? This is just to mention two thorn in the side of the OS4 today systems. Again, a browser such Timberwolf is important and actually is a milestone to point at, but why don't focus to other important os4 sore points? Who would dream of building a beautiful house on a little hazardous or unsafe ground? Most of the load is on the bro shoulders (that i really admire). Should Hyperion hire more developers and beta testers to help the OS4 core team in their hard work? This could be new discussion point. I'm not an insider and certainly i don't not all the problems or issues they should face, but from an outsider point of view, like mine, everything may seem not properly organized. Sometimes I have this doubt. I probably will draw the hearts of all with this words, but I tried to be as honest as possible, hoping to open a constructive and peaceful discussion on this very forum.

Thank you

Last edited by AmigaBlitter on 10-Jun-2010 at 11:01 AM.

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@AmigaBlitter

agree 100%

We need new opengl (mesa), that will bring many good opensource games and apps. Of course, its not so "native", but when it works fast on our amigas, then who care. In last time we have many new ports of games, demos and apps (like LodePaint) which are use OpenGL. And because current realisation of OpenGL over Warp3D slowing down in 2-3 times OpenGL at all in compare how it done for example on Morphos, or even on WinXP - we have "almost good" apps. Even with that 2-3 times slownes it's not that bad, but can be very good.

So, for me, as for end-user and from time to time developer - new OpenGL realisation it high priority and must.

Related to USB, all devices which i have are works, and without any problems (peg2 , and devices are mostly Sticks).

Last edited by kas1e on 10-Jun-2010 at 11:25 AM.

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I don't agree. Of course development at the OS is very important, but what do you do with an OS without software? Timberwolf is not just a killerapplication, Firefox (resp. Timberwolf) was the most wanted and most important software to use with AmigaOS every day. What do you do with a "perfect" OS without any software? Without software, there are no users, which means no developers. And if you wait until the OS is really good, Microsoft would not have published any program until 2005 (when XP SP2 came out), because their OS had too many bugs to concentrate on any other project beside the developement of Windows. The same for Apple, before MacOS X 10.3.7 MacOS (X) was much too buggy....

And back to AmigaOS: A good browser is most important, I see it as that important that it is actually part of the OS. We have OWB with more bugs than features and the old and crappy IBrowse or AWeb. So what is more important than a good browser?

Last edited by DrZarkov on 10-Jun-2010 at 11:27 AM.

@AmigaBlitter

You are stating the blindingly obvious. I don't know why people insist on knowing better than the people behind it. IF there was more that could be done, then we'd be doing it already. The current resources do not allow to hire more developer, they do not allow to rewrite the graphics system (God knows I've been talking about that for years now, so it's not like that is a new idea). I am seriously growing tired of having to hear about "bad organization" when you don't have the slightest clue how the organization looks.

Seriously, there is nothing that could be done differently than how it is done now. You can argue that point over and over but it won't make any difference. Are there bugs in OS 4? Hell, yeah. We're aware of the shortcomings and the problems. We're working on fixing them, but that all takes time and resources, both of which are thin, and most of them are tied up right now in the X-1000 project, which is the most important thing to concentrate on right now.

If we were Microsoft, we'd probably have our own dedicated department for graphics and application development and what-have-you. We aren't. We're doing what is possible, there is no reserve; I wish there were.

There is nothing you can do about it.

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@Rogue

Do not be angry, please.
My intention was not to make you angry.
Just some thoughts.

Quote:

I am seriously growing tired of having to hear about "bad organization" when you don't have the slightest clue how the organization looks.

Note that i wrote what an outsider pov could be.

"I'm not an insider and certainly i don't not all the problems or issues they should face, but from an outsider point of view, like mine, everything may seem not properly organized."

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@Rogue

I think another area where people get confused is not seperating what you do personally, to what you do professionally.

The work on the OS is Hyperions responsibility, and you work for them and get paid for it. Timberwolf is what you chose to do yourself in your own time. I dont see how it has to be one or the other.

All i would suggest is that people can say what they think is a priority over others to update/include in the OS, and it *may* influence what is done before something else, but unless it is a really 'out there' idea, as you said, its probably been discussed internally over and over.

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reading the initial timberwold alpha release statement, they have a workload, personal issue and other things. Do you think that developing timberworf is relaxing? Maybe AB want just point out that these things could be done by other. He only said that for now we have OWB and Netsurf and a few other things....

@amitv

I only wrote some thoughts. As i wrote, i don't want to blame no one, just some considerations. I just wrote what an outsider could view the situation. I always have had nice word for Hyperion in the past. If my observations are considered useful, someone can think about these word, otherwise there is no reason to get angry. Moreover, my thread have this title: "Where to go from now", suggesting, only suggesting, what could/would/should be done in the future. "Your thoughts and mine" indicating i want to know your opinion too.

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@AmigaBlitter

I don't agree 100%.

As an Outsider--> I don't own a working Amiga anymore (only a broken 1200 in my cellar) I can say, that moving to a new Amiga would not only be reasoned within the OS or the software.

It will always be both.

And I have to say:

For me the situation has improved within the last 4 years a lot. (That long I am reading that forum without having an Amiga, wtf)

The OS is improving, more and more software is appearing.

I don't think that Amiga will raise again and destroy Windooze and Apfel, buut I think it has a good potential to be a geek or industrial or scientific OS.

The Amiga was almost always about tinkering, or lets say "McGyver something".

Just wait and see, enjoy your Amiga. becasue at the end of 2010 you could use it as a computer to handle all your internet tasks. And you still do more then that.

You wont be able to compete with a hihj powered MAC or PC, but lets say a Netbook. These are also only usable for Internet stuff.
But next to that your Amiga will be able to do a little bit more.

Just relax.

Amiga has seen worse times, didn't she?

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@Rogue

I agree with you

@AmigaBlitter

i understand your point of view but at the moment, talking about timberwolf and OWB, i think is better have a worldwideweb, where the core development team (not hyperion) concentrate about fixing bugs and improving the browser and that could receive feedback from all over the net, instead using OWB, that is really a good browser, but its userbase is not the Firefox's usersbase..

Another important thing, imho, is that after having seen the Alpha of Timberwolf, i guess that at the end it will be faster than owb and maybe the most powerfull and faster browser on the amiga.. at the moment here, is faster than owb and at the moment it has a rendering engine that slowdown the rendering page from 2 up to 8 times and it doesn't use the hw accelleration..

Maybe we will never see the hw accelleration on OWB, and we will never have a complete gui on it..

For the rest i understand that we need a modern graphic system and a modern 3D drivers but as Rogue already told, we are small and we are not M$..

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@AmigaBlitter

Quote:

Remarkable work, really. I think however, and correct me if i'm wrong, that at the moment this is not the thing we need for Amiga OS. OWB work quite good and improving and growing release after release, as well as NetSurf.

I can't agree on that simply because our OWB port isn't a real browser, it's just a core port plus 2/3 things like a UI, beside that OWB is not a complete port of WebKit too, it has some limitations.

You fellow Iksnet so you know exactly what is my idea as I explain numberous of time, to use OWB "decently" we need almost the MUI port instead of what we have today...

So a complete Firefox port is not just a normal port, is a HUGE step forward for our platform, it open the door to the XUL technology so in a near future we can have access to a lot of new apps like Thunderbird and others

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XUL

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@samo79

so I hope we can see the workbench rewritten with XUL in a near future..

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@Rogue

Quote:

Rogue wrote: @AmigaBlitter You are stating the blindingly obvious. I don't know why people insist on knowing better than the people behind it.

We don't have better insight to what is going on then the people on the inside do.

Still it doesn't take much looking from the outside in to see things are handled pretty #### poor.


Like your post. Here is a user trying to drum up ways to make his platform better and a dev comes and poo poos all over it.


Look at TrevorDick's bounty to get some SAMs in to Devs hands. Shouldn't that be YOUR job? Users have to pay to get devs systems to get software to get YOU more sales?

Since we are talking, how is that secret device coming? Any news on even a SINGLE detail of the MAP?


More #### poor right there. Lets announce crap, spam war about it, then never release any information and finally get MAD at the USERS when they ask about.

Last edited by AmigaHeretic on 10-Jun-2010 at 02:13 PM.

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@AmigaHeretic

well done on missing the point. do you feel better now you let that out? there's nothing but bitterness from you thesedays.

also, how is it rogue's mission to get hardware to devs? he doesnt run hyperion or a-eon.

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@Rogue

Quote:

Rogue wrote: @AmigaBlitter We're working on fixing them, but that all takes time and resources, both of which are thin, and most of them are tied up right now in the X-1000 project, which is the most important thing to concentrate on right now.

FACEPALM

The X1000 is what you are concentrating on? Really? This is why people get frustrated. They see focus being put an a fairy tale.

How many sales do you expect to get from the X1000? Looks like from the poll 3 users have signed up. What are you gonna do, maybe 10 sales of that 1ghz $2000 wonder machine!?!?!?!? If that?

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@samo79

I think you've missed some of my point.

Anyway, whatever app you port to OS4 you will never get to use at its best until those base issue get solved. This will give a bad impression about the whole OS4.
As an example, we had the opportunity to port a commercial openVG based software. The company was unable to port due to Ogl AOS limitation and other things.

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@Derfs

Quote:

Derfs wrote: @AmigaHeretic well done on missing the point. do you feel better now you let that out? there's nothing but bitterness from you thesedays. also, how is it rogue's mission to get hardware to devs? he doesnt run hyperion or a-eon.

All I hear is whining. How about talking to the post and situation? Can't come up with any "valid" arguments? Just have to whine about my attitude? Until you actually post a valid comment I'll take it you have nothing real to say.

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@AmigaHeretic

There's no need to be polemical in this way. If you have something to ask just ask.

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@Rogue

I think you have done well with OS4 and Timberwolf considering the resources, but your tone is a little abrasive. As a representative of Hyperion, it might be an idea to take a few deep breaths when someone says something that annoys you - unfortunately as users we get more freedom to speak as we like (within the TOS of the site), being a commercial entity, sometimes you need to bite your tongue. Keep to the facts, the truth will come out!

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