aka.. why I'm buying an X1000.

I think the X1000 is so exciting and can't wait to buy one. Saving my money now! I will definitely be slapping down some cash -- not just to buy a new toy, but to also help ensure that the X1000 is not the end of the line.

I think this is so important, because no one wants to spend big money to buy an "alternative" computer, with some novel but unexploited hardware features, if support for the system will dry up within 6 months (as a result of low sales). I'm probably the exception, willing to buy into an uncertain future. But I suspect the majority of "tire-kickers" will take a wait-and-see on this whole thing, to avoid buying a dead-end. Hopefully, such doubts don't become self-fulfilling.

Ultimately, my point is I think the hopes for Amiga's future are largely riding on the success of the X1000. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe AmigaOS and Amiga-like systems will start to thrive by exploiting old Macs, Efika and SamFlex. But to my way of thinking, compatibility with these older or limited platforms, while a great addition, is still a stopgap measure, only slowing death, not prolonging life. Instead, it will take fresh, modern hardware with novel capabilities to really extract Amiga out of obscurity. I believe anything less innovative than the X1000 is a "who cares" to those outside the Amiga die-hard. For the Amiga as a platform to exit the laughing stock, and truly have a future, we must have flagship hardware that will turn heads.

As I see it, that is exclusively the X1000. It seems to me the X1000 has already given us a kind of mini demonstration of its ability to breath new life into the platform. I.e. there has been an unusually high number of new AW user registrations since 2010, which is awesome. It would be very interesting to see a graph of new AW user registrations before and after the X1000 announcement went public.

So, if X1000 fails, the Amiga platform fails, as I see it. Because I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm tired of watching paint dry around here, after waiting nearly a decade for a truly modern platform to be on offer again. To me, this is the moment we've all been sticking around so long for. Finally there is real news and real innovation going on again within Amiga Hardware and Software. And finally the Amiga community will get a chance to put its money where its mouth is, for those able to afford it. I'm ready to do my part.

Alas, if the X1000 does fail, which I hope does NOT happen, no investor in their right mind will be willing to give the Amiga community another chance at a "modern" machine with a future again. The X1000 would serve as a cautionary tale and proof that the Amiga community loves to talk, but can't support new development.

Hence, the X1000 would become the final dead-end for a modern Amiga system. Beyond that, what's the point? I mean, who would want to stick around and continue to watch paint dry if you know that, ultimately, the room will be vacant anyway?

This for me, is why I am giving over my hopes and $$ to the X1000. Because I see it as the last great hope for the Amiga to rise again. And if it fails, I don't see anything on the other side of that making much sense anymore (Amiga-related).

I mean, if Amiga can't stage a comeback now, under more favorable conditions than we've seen in more than a decade, then game over!!!

That's why, it's X1000 or bust for me!

So, how many people have to feel the same as me to have a viable X1000? Well, let's see.. Trevor has said he wants to at least recoup the investment. That investment in June was 200k euro. By launch is it likely to be double that at least. If each unit clears 400 euro, then it will take approximately 1000 units sold to break even. Obviously, that's got some huge assumptions built in there. But if it is anywhere near the ballpark, then it would seem 2000 units would likely be enough to justify continued development, and no dead-end hardware.

Thoughts?

Last edited by jingof on 31-Jul-2010 at 01:30 AM.

_________________
Vic-20, C-64, C-128
Amiga 1000, 3000
AmigaOne X1000

@jingof

Trevor is a smart man, he's not likely to have bet the house on thousands of these but rather made a few hundred which he likely will be able to sell. Personally I don't buy hardware just to support someone's investment, I buy hardware because I see myself getting relative use out of it of at least to the money I spend. In the X1000 case I don't see that for me, so I won't be buying one. Personally, for me the X1000 is the wrong direction, it doesn't get me anything I don't already have and just dilutes the amount of money I have to spend on computer toys.

I need a reason to buy, some application that just screams out to me, and ports of Linux software don't do that. I understand and respect your decision to buy an X1000, I hope you do the same with my decision not to....

@persia
Quote:

Trevor is a smart man, he's not likely to have bet the house on thousands of these but rather made a few hundred which he likely will be able to sell.

I hope you are right.
I myself would buy the X1000 if i had the cash, but sadly it is simply out of my reach due to the price.

I really hope it turns out be a success though.

the nay sayers said the first Sam board would be the last, then the Samflex 440 came out and a year later the Sam460 is almost here AND the X1000 is soon to be here SO I think Amigans have nothing to worry about regarding AmigaOS4.1 hardware

_________________
____________________________
c64-2sids, A1000, A1200T-060@50(finally working!),A4000-CSMKIII
! My Master Miggies- Amiga 1000 & AmigaOne X1000 !
mancave-ramblings
X1000 I BELIEVE

@persia

Quote:

Trevor is a smart man, he's not likely to have bet the house on thousands of these but rather made a few hundred which he likely will be able to sell.

Small manufacturing runs are wise but unrelated to business success. That's related to cutting losses only. I.e. If Trevor only sells through his first batch, and calls it quits, that's very bad for all Amiga enthusiast.

Quote:

Personally I don't buy hardware just to support someone's investment

Definitely understand this point. However, I'm not really buying to support someone's investment. Rather, I believe Amiga as a platform will not survive an X1000 failure.

Just a personal opinion, but there it is. Amiga totally dead in 5 years if X1000 fails.

I buy to avoid that outcome. Not to support anyone's investment.

Quote:

I need a reason to buy, some application that just screams out to me, and ports of Linux software don't do that.

I think of the ports of open software is more about meeting minimum expectation. I.e. without firefox, no one will take X1000 seriously. I.e. Prevent the "Why NOT buy" first. Then add the "Why Buy" later.

Quote:

. I understand and respect your decision to buy an X1000, I hope you do the same with my decision not to....

Oh, absolutely! However, I do want to point out that this is not a conventional business/consumer juxtaposition. In this case, if we all take the position that "I'll vote against their approach with my wallet", then it brings down the whole platform. I.e. there's no second chances here.

We, as a community, must be willing to give them some room for error or disagreement.. because they are the ONLY ONES willing to even give it a go. And if they fail, I believe we are all left without good options.

So, while I may not agree with their choice of which applications to emphasize first, or which XMOS chip capacities to use, I'm all about giving them some latitude.

Because to expect "my" perfection out the gate, and to economically vote against in the absence of that, is a prescription for failure, and a shot at one's own foot.

Last edited by jingof on 31-Jul-2010 at 02:17 AM.
Last edited by jingof on 31-Jul-2010 at 02:16 AM.
Last edited by jingof on 31-Jul-2010 at 02:15 AM.
Last edited by jingof on 31-Jul-2010 at 02:13 AM.

_________________
Vic-20, C-64, C-128
Amiga 1000, 3000
AmigaOne X1000

@klx300r

Quote:

he nay sayers said the first Sam board would be the last, then the Samflex 440 came out and a year later the Sam460 is almost here AND the X1000 is soon to be here SO I think Amigans have nothing to worry about regarding AmigaOS4.1 hardware

Sure, I have nothing against Sam. Great to have options.

My point is only that, IMO Sam doesn't grow a user base it retains one. (generally speaking)
X1000 has potential to seriously grow the user base.

That is the "final opportunity" difference I'm referring to here. And the reason I said "modern" hardware. Sam is new, but not competitive with modern hardware. No knocks, just stating that in the spectrum of Amiga options, it is on the low end, and not a draw for "new blood". Further, I believe without "new blood", the attrition could increase in coming years.

We need "new blood", new markets, and new flagship hardware. The Sam yields none of those. The X1000 could yield all of them.

Last edited by jingof on 31-Jul-2010 at 02:50 AM.
Last edited by jingof on 31-Jul-2010 at 02:46 AM.

_________________
Vic-20, C-64, C-128
Amiga 1000, 3000
AmigaOne X1000

@jingof

I personally know 4 other ppl plus myself that will buy one, either as a beta tester or when it goes on sale. I see 4 groups of ppl buying the system. First group is the beta testers. Second group are the people that don't want to test, but want one out the gate. Third group are the fence sitters, those that need to save & wait for usage reports from the second group. And finally the fourth group, those that will jump when the second core becomes usable. New s/w could bring in more as well. My micro has been my joy for 5 years now, but with os4.1, I can see it being left behind because of the gfx memory limit. I also feel the os4 developers will favor the x1000 with new OS features which will push the more powerfull A1's to the brink.

I was told the SAM's had their own group of os4 developers, so that group should be ok.

_________________
Hate tends to make you look stupid...

@jingof

yes I do agree that the X1000 is the modern AmigaOS flagship system and it has caused a buzz outside our small community as well...hopefully enough that alot of ex-Amigans feel the urge to 'come back home'

_________________
____________________________
c64-2sids, A1000, A1200T-060@50(finally working!),A4000-CSMKIII
! My Master Miggies- Amiga 1000 & AmigaOne X1000 !
mancave-ramblings
X1000 I BELIEVE

@jingof

Technically the X1000 is an AmigaOne not an Amiga, since that name belongs to Amiga Inc, who is not involved in this venture. The Amiga situation is complex, there's Morphos and AROS out there as well as a pretty dedicated group of classic enthusiasts. I have no doubt that the legacy of Amiga will survive regardless of whether or not X1000 succeeds. For me, and I repeat for me, AROS is the best option. I will put my wallet behind that option and hope for the best. The X1000 convinced me that there was no future in AOS4, at fifteen hundred quid it's just too much money for too little return and I've found my place in the new Amiga order.

I fully admit to not having a crystal ball and I may be wrong. If I am proven wrong I will happily go buy whatever AOS 4 machine may be being sold at that time, but I don't think I am wrong. Everyone needs to examine the situation from their own point of view and come to their own conclusion. We're all adults. For me, things have never been clearer.

@jingof

Quote:

I believe anything less innovative than the X1000 is a "who cares" to those outside the Amiga die-hard.

I fail to see what's so very innovative about it. Sure, it has a fast modern PPC and that's nice and all, but innovative? Not especially.
Is adding an onboard XMOS chip that anyone could pop in their computer via USB for a few bucks if they saw any use for it making it very innovative? I don't think so. The Sam440 has a nice FPGA, but I have yet to hear about anyone making any use of it.

Face it, it's just another PPC box. If it hadn't been blessed with the magical AmigaOne name you wouldn't care less about it. This is not a make-or-break situation for OS4 any more or less than with the Teron boards or the Sam440.

Last edited by Channel_Z on 31-Jul-2010 at 03:36 AM.

@Channel_Z & persia

Don't worry guys, they didn't make one for you...

_________________
Hate tends to make you look stupid...

Quote:

sundown wrote: @Channel_Z & persia Don't worry guys, they didn't make one for you...

Do you mean:
"AmigaOne.. for OS4 fans only.. "

_________________
Men who have girlies in their avatars are Girliemen!

@Channel_Z

Quote:

I fail to see what's so very innovative about it. Sure, it has a fast modern PPC and that's nice and all, but innovative? Not especially. Is adding an onboard XMOS chip that anyone could pop in their computer via USB for a few bucks if they saw any use for it making it very innovative? I don't think so.

I never said the hardware would blow away anything from Intel etc. Innovation, in this case, is a relative term. And it is also a matter of expectations. I think it is unrealistic to expect today's X1000 to be as far ahead as the A1000 was 25 years. This isn't the 80's anymore and today's team doesn't have the "first mover" advantage that Jay et. al. had in '83. To be innovative today is a much more evolutionary proposition, than it was in the early days of personal computing. So, if you are expecting a small, shoe-string budget group to leap frog the collective R&D budgets of the last 25 years that are millions of times larger, I think your expectations are unrealistic.

I think the X1000 is innovative largely because it overcomes much of a 17 year stasis, and hopefully will achieve a modern system that will be used in innovative ways. Sure the XMOS technology is available independently. So what? Some of the chips inside an XBOX, PS3 or Wii system can be purchased off the shelf as well. It's the total package that you put together where developers can assume a baseline, that enables new capabilities for the whole market. And sure the X1000 has peers that are more powerful. So, did the A1000, as Mentor Graphics, Silicon Graphics and others had graphics capabilities beyond the A1000 back 25 years ago. So, if you are measuring innovation relative to budgets and markets that are in a different league, or doing something that has no equal elsewhere, you will certainly be disappointed.

The X1000 is innovative within the market it seeks to serve, and for the collection of parts it incorporates into a baseline for developers to exploit to new ends. Beyond that, I'm sure you can find parts or whole systems that will exceed it. But they won't run Amiga OS or any Amiga system. So, they aren't innovative to this market, are they?

Last edited by jingof on 31-Jul-2010 at 06:41 AM.

_________________
Vic-20, C-64, C-128
Amiga 1000, 3000
AmigaOne X1000

@jingof

Quote:

So, if you are expecting a small, shoe-string budget group to leap frog the collective R&D budgets of the last 25 years that are millions of times larger, I think your expectations are unrealistic.

That's exactly what I'm not expecting. In fact, that was the gist of my post.

Quote:

I think the X1000 is innovative largely because it overcomes much of a 17 year stasis, and hopefully will achieve a modern system that will be used in innovative ways.

Quote:

The X1000 is innovative within the market it seeks to serve, and for the collection of parts it incorporates into a baseline for developers to exploit to new ends.

And how is this different from, say, the AmigaOne XE in 2003? It's about as much behind current mainstream computer performance as the 933MHz G4 was back then. Why would the X1000 overcome that "stasis" if the Teron boards didn't? Because it has a cooler name, and nicer stickers?

@Darth_X
Of course it's for OS4.x users (and - maybe - to a certain extent for upgrading OS3.x and/or returning ex-Amiga users). I would be surprised (positively!) if MorphOS would be ported to it...

_________________
X1000|II/G4|440ep|2000/060|2000/040|1000

@jingof

Sure the X1000 does generate a lot of hype inside and outside the community, but in the end it is just a ±5 year old CPU running 10+ old SW (+ a few ports that run better&faster elsewhere) on an OS with limited stability by design and the pricetag of a MacPro .....

There isn't anything innovative about, noone really believes in a future of PPC and "Amiga" has been all but forgotten as an obscure 80s gaming platform.

Sure there will be the usual suspects buying them, but most of them had allready had an OS4-capable computer before, so no new market here.

There will offcourse be the one or another oddball newcomer, just as it happened with prior HW releases but those will stay in double if not single digits.

In order to generate a viable commercial SW market that supports more than hit&run ports of 10 years old PC-games one would need atleast 1000 sales per game/app/tool, something requiring at minimum an installed base of 10000 (unless we stay with the "I'll buy anything to support the cause"-fanatics).

So one would want to sell some sort of paint/GFX-app for 50Euro a piece that would translate into 50000Euro before taxes and cost. A developer spending 1 year on such a project could make better money standing at a factory line....

On the other hand, 1 developer working fulltime for 1 year couldn't code anything that could compete featurewise even with apps clued onto magazines as a giveaway.

50000 maybe enough to do a simple gameport, but those can't generate any new users, they just help stop the errosion.

Last edited by Kronos on 31-Jul-2010 at 07:23 AM.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

@persia

Quote:

Technically the X1000 is an AmigaOne not an Amiga, since that name belongs to Amiga Inc, who is not involved in this venture.

Even name "AmigaOne" belongs to Amiga.Inc...

@Channel_Z

Quote:

And how is this different from, say, the AmigaOne XE in 2003? It's about as much behind current mainstream computer performance as the 933MHz G4 was back then. Why would the X1000 overcome that "stasis" if the Teron boards didn't? Because it has a cooler name, and nicer stickers?

A few factors might make it possible:

* The target market, e.g. current and ex-Amiga users that were kids to teens/early 20's when the Amiga launched, are now from the early to mid 30's upwards. Largely established, with families, and with far more funds to spend on nostalgia and hobbies than before, and settling down. There's a reason why all kinds of nostalgia focused on the mid 80's are booming (e.g. look at the comic book movies all focusing on story lines from the mid 80's). "Waves" of retro interest tends to follow the 30+ segment - I remember this well from my own childhood, with the products my parents bought that were overpriced but worth it to them because it reminded them of their own childhood.

* The X1000 appears to be "fast enough" for a larger user segment. The last couple of years have seen the PC market margins start to collapse for this same reason - hardware performance is "good enough" for mainstream users to not chase the top end any more. Outside of gamers, most people, even hardcore geeks, are willing to consider low to mid end machines if there are other interesting aspects.

The time is *perfect* to capture parts of this market.

_________________
Wiki for new/returning Amiga users - Projects: ACE basic compiler / FrexxEd / Git

@vidarh

Quote:

The target market, e.g. current and ex-Amiga users that were kids to teens/early 20's when the Amiga launched, are now from the early to mid 30's upwards.

Those people are imo more likely to get something that is actually Amiga-chipset compatible and not just a frontend for the Amiga emulation they might as well do on their PC. Something like a Natami or a Minimig AGA. Provided they get hold of proper information of all the systems and can do an informed choice.
Because, what is so retro about running Timberwolf, Blender and a few SDL games? Do you think the retro people will get attracted by something they might as well do on a PC they find in the trash?

Quote:

The X1000 appears to be "fast enough" for a larger user segment.

I see your point, and agree with it. The only problem is that while being "fast enough" it competes with other systems that are "fast enough" and does not cost as much as a Mac Pro.

@vidarh

Quote:

* The target market, e.g. current and ex-Amiga users that were kids to teens/early 20's when the Amiga launched, are now from the early to mid 30's upwards. Largely established, with families, and with far more funds to spend on nostalgia and hobbies than before, and settling down. There's a reason why all kinds of nostalgia focused on the mid 80's are booming (e.g. look at the comic book movies all focusing on story lines from the mid 80's). "Waves" of retro interest tends to follow the 30+ segment - I remember this well from my own childhood, with the products my parents bought that were overpriced but worth it to them because it reminded them of their own childhood.

Not quite. We survied a world financal crisis. So not everyone has enough money or is willing to pay that much for a toy. Another thing is, if you want to remember the old days wouldn't you buy a classic amiga?

Quote:

* The X1000 appears to be "fast enough" for a larger user segment. The last couple of years have seen the PC market margins start to collapse for this same reason - hardware performance is "good enough" for mainstream users to not chase the top end any more. Outside of gamers, most people, even hardcore geeks, are willing to consider low to mid end machines if there are other interesting aspects.

"fast enough" is not something you could use to generate sales. The most people look at the price/performance ratio or at the price only. So you will totally fail in both areas.


Please don't see that answer to hard. I only think that the x1000 hype could be very destructive since it may not be possible that all those dreams of a higher userbase will come true with the new "Amiga". Why? Look at the other Amiga boards. A lot people are willing to buy one but for the most of them the price is totally insane. ( for me too)