First of all, my apologies for making yet another thread on the recent CEO-farce. I could have posted this on the other thread, but it was getting rather long, and started trashing the display on my Voodoo, so I decided I needed another one.

There was one question which was raised at some point, which I have been thinking about :
Why would Bill Buck lie about something so easily refuted?

My take on it is this:
I have noticed that Bill Buck's entire approach to discussion is similar that of battlefield strategy. He intentionally winds people up (so that they might make mistakes), he praises someone while attacking others (divide and conquer), he creates uncertainty and confusion by claiming one intention while actually working against it (for example claiming to want cooperation with Hyperion while simultaneously accusing the MP of lying about his profession), and he takes advantage of turmoil. In this particular case, I think turmoil might be what he was after. His "troops"/excisting customers seem to be immensely loyal to him. He probably knows this, and has seen it before, since whenever he makes a controversial claim, nobody among his own ranks questions it, and instead the burden of evidence is shifted to his enemies. As an example, Hyperion were challenged to PROVE that a G4 AmigaOne wasn't slower than a G3 Pegasos. It was quite obvious that they would have little chance of taking the challenge, given their workload and the fact that the A1 isn't their product. Still, to Buck's troops, Hyperion ended up looking like the ones not backing up their claims. Why are Bill Buck's defenders so loyal? I think part of the reason is that he has delivered something they were waiting for for ages: an Amiga-compatible (for now), Amiga-inspired OS running on decent hardware. I think the other part might be that the people who switched to the MOS/Peg platform feel a great need to justify abandoning the name "Amiga" for a competitor. After all, they were extremely loyal to that name (yes, "the name") for a very long time. Anyway, back to the main issue: By creating turmoil in the Amiga community, Buck has a chance of "chipping off" bits and pieces of the remaing Amiga-loyal community. Since his excisting following is so loyal, he expects to get away with this without loosing any significant number of them.

Well, that's my theory, anyway. I am sure there are people here who are capable of polite and reasoned disagreement...

Kay

Hey Kay,

I think in terms of loyalty, no one is as loyal to the Amiga platform as someone who spent thousands on an Amiga.

Maybe that is just plain obvious, why would someone who never owned an Amiga be a loyal Amigan?

But it still warrants some attention. This market badly wanted modern hardware and software...as you stated. And by delivering 600 or so peg boards, filling that need. BB did secure the loyalty of 600 or so people...I think.

Those people will be fairly loyal...they voted with their pocketbooks...they enjoy their machines...and they have an interest in the platforms success now.

Beyond those 600, BB has some fans too...but I wouldn't count on them being especially loyal. Easy come, easy go.

Amigan's are very loyal to the 'name'....even people very very disappointed in the name, we still want the buggers to succeed in our heart of hearts.

I do think, Bill very much needs controversy. For, while his future plans may be a large base, where ex-Amigans are only a small part...in these early days, his base is ex-Amigans...and getting more ex-Amigans is the easiest source for sales, at the moment anyway. Maybe he will succeed in the future broadening his market, but thats not today.

So he needs controversy...imho...but its always a difficult strategy, and in my opinion the CEO thing really backfired.

If it seems strange more genesi ppl weren't appalled, well there was just enough of doubt about the card, which apparantly was real, and Garry Hare, really working for Amiga, Inc. in some capacity...that some face was saved...

I wasn't one who cared about that...as far as I was concerned it was a total fiasco, and unneccessary.

I don't own a peg....maybe I never will.
If you think of me as a MOS supporter, then know one MOS supporter was really miffed by the whole thing.

But then again, maybe because I am miffed, then by definition I'm not really a MOS supporter....its all language I suppose.

Ok, I think you need to turn the reallity option on now!

Your battlefield theory may be true and false up to a certain degree. This is the real world and this is part of the buisness, but I think you just went way too far with this!

You call Genesi's customers "troops" and wonder why and how they are so "loyal"!

That must be because they are actually offering them two (2) great products at riculus price leves, not taking pre orders / coupons, not stealing their customers, providing outrageous support to everyone they can (even non customers), attending every Amiga party out there promoting their products, sponsoring the Demoscene, helping developers, actively contributing to every known public Amiga forums, talking with the users and generally giving the "Amiga Community" some fresh air to breath?

How also about because they design, develop, produce and promote their own products (all of them)?
How about because they happen to know better the "Amiga" than Amiga Inc, Eyetech and Hyperion together do?
How about because they have the best technology available Right Now?

How about because the "other camp" has offered / done nearly none of all these mentioned above?
How about the "other camp" had continiusly screwing the classic desktop Amiga with their weirdo AmigaDE / AA strategies just to go nowhere?
How about because the "other camp" looks like a bunch of amatures that have no offices, no phones, no company, can not deliver even a bunch of prepaid t-shirts (how the f*** they could EVER gonna build and support a platform on their own?)

The list is endless but if these are not enough for you, then go read some real Amiga community site's forums (not this AmigaIncWorld.net fairytale).
Day by day you see more and more happy Pegasos owners.
Day by day you see more and more frustrated LinuxOne "waiters".

Oh and before you call me "BBRV or Genesi trooper", better think if you are (and why) a "The_Name trooper" too...

Now, I should *emphasize* the fact that they Design, Develop, Produce and Promote their own products!

This means that they have serius technology knowledge (and background) advantage over the other camp.

That means (for example), that when they say that there is a bug in Articia, they most probably Know What The Fvck are talking about, in contrary to the other camp-bunch of amatures!

This is ofcourse and for their experience with MorphOS (wich a full blown modern OS written from scratch).

That is why many ppl tend to believe more what mr Bill Buck (Genesi) says than "the other camp"...

Bah, all of this is claptrap.
Genesi know the Amiga no better or worse than Amiga Inc and Co.I would tend to lean towards eyetech as they have years and years and years of supporting Amiga long before genesi was on the scene, and I think it is very unfair to attack them in this fashion.

Genesi has had the backing to do these things like attend shows etc, Amiga Inc has not.This has been due to a large amount of bad luck with many of its deals falling through i.e: Sharp nokia, sendo and others over which it had no control.

Genesi has been very good to its customers, how long they can maintain this is questionable as they have been discounting alot of stuff and this has to drain thier resources.

This tactic of continually attacking Amiga Inc and its partners, spreading unfounded rumours etc is reprehensible in my opinion.Bill Bucks stated goal at trying to take Bill McEwen down(not to mention gloating about it when he thought he had) shows that he is clearly using Genesi to persue a personal agenda.

Up until this point I had no opinion on Genesi one way or the other, I even defended the guy in my earlier posts.
Since his last statements there is no way I will support Genesi, not even if they produce something that absolutely blows the market away and is cheaper as well.

This is a moral stand and has nothing to do with Amiga Inc at all, and everything to do with the actions Bill Buck has taken.

As far as the business side of things go, Genesi had, and still has the opportunity to heal this devide in the community, all they have to do is get thier machine AmigaOne certified and provide OS4 with it when it is released.Doing this wont take anything away from them.

Genesi has set themselves up as an opposing platform to the Amiga Platform, its as simple as that.You can either go and become a Morphosian, or stay and Amigan, its really that simple.

I, for one, am sick of this continual mudsliging, and think its long past time to put the matter to rest and for both companies to go thier seperate ways and trade on thier merits, instead of subjecting us to this crap every couple of weeks.

_________________

The guy has probably read to much Sun Tzu .

@all

Kay does make a very good argument. I clearly remember the Pegasos vs A1 showdown which Buck demanded from Ben Hermans. There was some major support for Buck from his supporters on ann. However, when a benchmark was made which clearly showed that the G4 in an A1 was far more powerful than the Pegasos machine, it was largely neglected by the other side. Though the more level headed of the Morphos/Peggy users, such as Hooligan, thankfully never gave into such marketing tricks.

Kay, I guess it's point-counterpoint time , but all in a good spirit, I hope.

I think your assumption that Bill Buck is lying is incorrect. As others have pointed out, it'd be self-destructive to lie about something that'd be so easy to prove wrong. Bill Buck did not make up the story about Garry Hare and the CEO business card. Apparently Garry Hare has attended at least one industry show, giving away these cards and introducing himself as the Amiga, Inc. CEO. Wayne Hunt at amiga.org has another of the cards in his possession, and other people have said they've seen them. Wayne said the card is exactly like the cards of Bill's and fleecy's that he also has. And the Bay Area phone prefix is because that's where Garry Hare is based, just as fleecy's in the UK and Ray is in Canada. Somebody said (though I haven't confirmed this) that Garry Hare was even introduced in Amiga, Inc. legal hearings as the company's CEO.

So clearly there's more to the story than Amiga, Inc. has acknowledged so far. If you notice how they've worded their responses, fleecy and Ray have never actually said "Garry Hare is not the CEO," or "Garry Hare has not been representing himself as CEO," or "the business cards are fake" or anything of that nature. Their language suggests that the company could be in somekind of transition period with perhaps a changing of the guard underway. It seems to me that these rumors could be killed immediately, and Bill Buck made out to be a liar in front of us all, if Amiga, Inc. would go on the record regarding the current status of Garry Hare, etc. I wonder why they always stop short of that.

Having said all that about the CEO thing, I'll go along with your idea that Bill Buck tends to approach things like a military commander sometimes. Sometimes he does like to cause an uproar just to make a splash. He seems to think the positive outcomes of these things outweigh the negatives, and Genesi and the Pegasos are doing pretty well, so maybe he's right, although it's galling to people "on the other side."

I think maybe he gets overexcited and perhaps goes a little overboard, for example by saying "Bill's out" when Amiga staff can still put Bill messages on the web site to counter him. But I think his "sins" are more overenthusiasm than intentional mistruths. (Well, I know you're thinking I'm too easy on him here, and I respect your opinion on it, so we'll just have to agree to disagree, probably.) In my dealings with him, and I have fairly regular contact via Phoenix, he's always been friendly and forthright, something most people who deal with him one-on-one will tell you, I'm sure. This is the reason why people are "loyal." Everyone involved views the situation as win-win.

-- gary_c

@ gary_c

Quote:

I think your assumption that Bill Buck is lying is incorrect.

More apparent examples of lying and deceit would be hard to find.

Don't you see you actually back up Kay's take on the current situation? You are acting as a first class Genesi "trooper", trying to defend and cover-up Buck's wild claims only because he may have mixed some half-truths with his utter nonsense. (that's the way he always does this)

Amiga does not have to proof anything. If and when Amiga has a new CEO they will announce this. Currently Amiga has made it clear that there is only one Amiga CEO and his name is Bill McEwen, I believe there's no need for you to pull this into doubt.

Quote:

by Bren on 2003/5/1 2:24:09 Ok, I think you need to turn the reallity option on now! Your battlefield theory may be true and false up to a certain degree. This is the real world and this is part of the buisness, but I think you just went way too far with this! You call Genesi's customers "troops" and wonder why and how they are so "loyal"! That must be because they are actually offering them two (2) great products at riculus price leves, not taking pre orders / coupons, not stealing their customers, providing outrageous support to everyone they can (even non customers), attending every Amiga party out there promoting their products, sponsoring the Demoscene, helping developers, actively contributing to every known public Amiga forums, talking with the users and generally giving the "Amiga Community" some fresh air to breath? How also about because they design, develop, produce and promote their own products (all of them)? How about because they happen to know better the "Amiga" than Amiga Inc, Eyetech and Hyperion together do? How about because they have the best technology available Right Now? How about because the "other camp" has offered / done nearly none of all these mentioned above? How about the "other camp" had continiusly screwing the classic desktop Amiga with their weirdo AmigaDE / AA strategies just to go nowhere? How about because the "other camp" looks like a bunch of amatures that have no offices, no phones, no company, can not deliver even a bunch of prepaid t-shirts (how the f*** they could EVER gonna build and support a platform on their own?) The list is endless but if these are not enough for you, then go read some real Amiga community site's forums (not this AmigaIncWorld.net fairytale). Day by day you see more and more happy Pegasos owners. Day by day you see more and more frustrated LinuxOne "waiters". Oh and before you call me "BBRV or Genesi trooper", better think if you are (and why) a "The_Name trooper" too...

Your Way off Topic & not addressing what Kay has said Att all.

Topic: Lying and getting away with it.
Amiga.inc dead.
CEO replaced.
Genesi getting hold of Amiga IP.

All lies at this moment in time.

Topic is not Not what Genesi have offered or delivered.

Pls keep your PR to other places as Most here do not care for anything that Genesi has to offer.

_________________
PowerTower A1200, 060/80Mhz, Heatsink & Fan, 66MBRam, PowerFlyerGold, 50xCDRomdrive, 250Zip, 2.1

Quote:

by Bren on 2003/5/1 2:42:43 Now, I should *emphasize* the fact that they Design, Develop, Produce and Promote their own products! This means that they have serius technology knowledge (and background) advantage over the other camp. That means (for example), that when they say that there is a bug in Articia, they most probably Know What The Fvck are talking about, in contrary to the other camp-bunch of amatures! This is ofcourse and for their experience with MorphOS (wich a full blown modern OS written from scratch). That is why many ppl tend to believe more what mr Bill Buck (Genesi) says than "the other camp"...

Your still way off topic.

Plus Throwing insults at Eyetech & Hyperion when they have done nothing latey that warrants  such insults.

_________________
PowerTower A1200, 060/80Mhz, Heatsink & Fan, 66MBRam, PowerFlyerGold, 50xCDRomdrive, 250Zip, 2.1

@IonMane
Bah, all of this is claptrap.
Genesi know the Amiga no better or worse than Amiga Inc and Co.I would tend to lean towards eyetech as they have years and years and years of supporting Amiga long before genesi was on the scene, and I think it is very unfair to attack them in this fashion.
----------------------

Wow, we meet again
Have any idea of what companies Genesi is made of, and with merits, products, knowledge?
I am not saying Eyetch don't have the skills, they have been here long and know how things work, that is for sure. But a comparison like this don't hold any water, IMHO.

I really object to Trolls like Bren coming on to these forums and posting a sales pitch for Genesi Products.

Sadly, the number of Genesi followers blighting these forums/website is increasing by the day and it won`t be long before you cannot tell the difference betwen Amiga.org and Amiga World.



- Apart from the Webmaster that is!

_________________
No cause is lost if there is but one fool left to fight for it.

@ Mikey_C

Don't you worry, these latest discussions also regard Genesi and so for now they can get away with this as a defensive "trooper" strategy.

However AmigaWorld has made it clear and widely known that we are focussed on AmigaDE/AmigaOS solutions and the Amiga user community. So if they start posting off-topic threads regarding rival products, such people will be approached and if bad intend is obvious be dealt with.

Don't worry Mikey I believe these are just some aftershocks from BB's lastest blunders with their "troopers" trying to defend and cover-up whatever they can.

Quote:

Mikey_C wrote: I really object to Trolls like Bren coming on to these forums and posting a sales pitch for Genesi Products. Sadly, the number of Genesi followers blighting these forums/website is increasing by the day and it won`t be long before you cannot tell the difference betwen Amiga.org and Amiga World. - Apart from the Webmaster that is!

Doubt it. Most people see this site as AmigaIncWorld.net which is fine with me .

-edit-
I should say most people from the other side .

Quote:

Oh and before you call me "BBRV or Genesi trooper", better think if you are (and why) a "The_Name trooper" too...

Speaking of Names... What I always notice with the Genesi Troopers is their use of names. Amiga is "Amino" or "The_Name", Hyperion is "HYPErion", WarpOS was "WarpDown", Ben Hermans was "Benemy"...

And you call Amiga fans "The_Name" troopers...

Interesting...

Genepiss, Genitalis .. take your pick... I'll come up with more if needed.

@Alkemyst

Ok you can call me a "trooper" or a "troll" or whatever you like, I don't care. I rarelly visit this AInc's fairytale site, I couldn't care less...

Quote:

Your Way off Topic & not addressing what Kay has said Att all.

No I am not., I just tried to *demonstrate* to Kay *why* BBRV's "troops" are so loyal to them (Genesi) as he was wondering about it in his originall post. There are surely many good reasons as you can see!

As for my comment on "Lying and getting away with it." here it is:

I don't think BBRV lied at all here. Plain and simple, I believe them, as I believe them in most things they say from times to times.

And that was the purpose of my 2nd post. I trust Genesi more then AInc. I trust that they know better, because they have the background to do so (again the example with the bug in Articia wich I believe while you don't).
In all this trust, I also believe them in their latest statements.

IMHO you are willingly blind your selfs in this. You just don't want to see above the AInc's lame excuses and PRs.

IMHO you are all way more "troops" to a company that has done nothing for you (Amiga Community) than we are for another one that does exactly the oposite.

Rogue.

I find Morphreaks works for me.

_________________
No cause is lost if there is but one fool left to fight for it.

Quote:

In my dealings with him, and I have fairly regular contact via Phoenix, he's always been friendly and forthright, something most people who deal with him one-on-one will tell you, I'm sure.

I'm sure that's true unless you happen to disagree with BB or his method of operation. Having suggested that I would not buy one of his products he replied with a casual insult. Not very professional, not very smart.

_________________
Time to give up now I think

@Bren

Quote:

Plain and simple, I believe them, as I believe them in most things they say from times to times.

So you believe them in MOST things they say, NOT all? Then by your own admission then they must be lying the REST of the time.

BB has came out of this sorry tale smelling of SH*T! He tried to spread FUD and it blew up in his face, simple as that.

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