I have posted some serious questions for fleecy moss and hope they will get chosen.

I have also sent similar questions to BBRV to get his response to see what, if any, platform we may have to see any possible reconcilliation take place.
Here is an unedited copy(except for email adresses) of the email I revieved in repy:

[quote]Hi Bert and Ernie, we know a couple of Developers who remind us of you...

On 5/19/03 1422, "Bert And Ernie" wrote:

> Hello Mr Buck,
>
> I have decided to take you up on your offer that you presented in your last
> instant message to me at Amiga.org.
>
> Since my return to the Amiga scene some 2-3 months ago I found myself
> shocked and dismayed at the devide that exists in the communty between
> Genesi and Amiga Inc. and\or thier partners.I must admit, I have foolishly
> allowed myself to get caught up somewhat in this, but recently I have
> realized that this does no good for the community, Amiga Inc. its partners
> or Genesi.
> Everyone I have spoken to agree that this divide is more than just damaging
> to the Amiga community, but could very well spell the doom for the platform
> as a whole.They also agree that a united front so that the Amiga can take on
> its real competitors: Macintosh, Microsoft, and to a lesser extent Linux and
> EXPAND the amiga market, rather than the canibalization of the Amiga
> community is the way to go.
>
> The way I see it, there are basicly 3 options to achieve this:
>
> 1. Genesi going under or leaving the Amiga community
> 2. Amiga Inc and\or its partners going under or leaving the community.
> 3. A solution found so that all parties involved in the Amiga community can
> work under a united front for the benifit of all involved.
>
> Option 1. and 2. is far from the best answer as it deprives the community of
> valueable resources and choice.
> This leaves option number 3.
>
> This requires some sort of reconcilliation between Genesi and Amiga Inc.
> Everybody that loves the Amiga that I have talked to wants to see this.
> To this end I have posted these questions in the "ask fleecy" section of
> AmigaWorld.
>
>>>>> Is Amiga Inc. willing to return to the negotiation table with Genesi in
>>>>> an attempt to help them provide thier own AmigaOne solution that is
>>>>> equitable for all parties, and to try to heal the divide that has caused
>>>>> so much strife within the Amiga community?
>
> Follow up questions:
>
> BBRV has expressed that the lisencing fee's are too high among other
> things.What compromises in this, or any other area would you be willing to
> make?
>
> What concessions would you expect in return for these compromises?
> 1.Are you willing to return to the negotiation table with Amiga Inc. with
> the view of gaining Amiga certification for the pegasos machine, and in so
> doing try to heal the devide that has afflicted the Amiga community, in a
> fair and equitable way?


Sure, even put everything public. We have nothing to hide!


>
> 2. what compromises would you be willing to make to achieve this?

Compromises can be discussed once we have a starting position. We are
supporting TEN different OS ports now. Is there still a question of our
intention?

>
> 3. what concessions would you expect from Amiga Inc. and\or it's partners?

The best thing to do would be to get it working on the platform first.
Then, we have something to discuss! We have offered a board more than
once. We have sent boards to AROS, OpenBeOS, NewOS, and OpenBSD and
FreeBSD. We have also sent boards/machines to Linux distro teams of YDL,
Gentoo, Mandrake, SuSE and even have a ten man Debian Developer Team, not to
mention a close working relationship with Samuel of Mac-on-Linux!



>
> Please note, I intend to make this correspondence public so that the same
> public scrutiny will be placed on you as will be placed on Amiga Inc.


OK!


Have a nice day.

Sincerely,

R&B


>
> Sincerely
> IonMane(AmigaWorld)
> IonDeluxe(amiga.org)[quote]

This is not all that I had hoped, but it is more than I expected.
P.S BBRV's replies are not preceeded with by a ">"

_________________

Sound like a good initiative.

But, it seems like BBRV only wants to send a board over to the OS4 dev. team, and then expect them to just port it over to peg. for no reason other than the added sales of OS4.

It have been stated by Amiga Inc., that they want a licence fee, for the "Name!" on the hardware. this fee, might be to high. i don't know. but i don't think they will ever drop the licence fee. it is after all, one of their incomes.

ps. don't get me wrong, i would love to se OS4 on the peggy too.

_________________

To port AmigaOS4 to the Pegasos just for the added sales would be a waste of time.

Only 600 Peg1 sold and half of the owners would never touch OS4, unless Morph development suddenly stopped.

Wait and see if the Peg2 has something to offer and then see if Genesi are willing to meet the requirements to get OS4 ported.

If not, forget about Genesi and spend the effort in other places.

_________________

I agree with Troels.
Let's see how Pegasos2 takes off... meanwhile both parties can continue computing. Theres no interest in OS4 for Pegasos1 _NOW_ .. AmigaOne owners seem to be happy with Linux, Pegasos owners seem to be happy with MorphOS.

Let's get back on the case in a few months or so.

@IonMane:

While I think your initiative is honorable, I don't really believe a reconciliation is likely. Bill Buck says that he wants to cooperate, he has done so several times, but I don't think he is sincere. He has said before that he wants OS4 on the Pegasos, but in the same debate he said:
*that OS4 would end up running on the Pegasos anyway, cooperation or no cooperation ("some of you clever girls and boys will take care of that").
*that Ben Hermans isn't a real lawyer ("you're a clever young man").
Insults and offence is rarely an effective means of initiating a good cooperative relationship with someone.
He has also suggested that he would like to bring the community together, and publically offered Alan Redhouse a "deal", which was rightfully described by Alan later as an "unconditional surrender" (the thing I like about Alan, is that unlike Buck, he says what he means).

Besides this, I don't exactly see how a "coming together" would happen with:
*two independent hardware manufacturers.
*two independent and incompatible OS's.
*a lot of bad blood between the parties involved.

The way things are now, I don't see the Amiga community and MOS community being brought back together. I am in fact expecting these communities to separate further. But I guess the really bad thing is that I don't really feel too sad about this any longer. The level of noice on sites like AOrg and ANN, which currently supports both communities, is unbearable at times.

At the moment, my priority is to support the new Amiga, the new version of AmigaOS, and the remaining developers. I will not seek any involvement with MOS affairs, unless they somehow interfere with the Amiga scene.

Kay

There can be NO cooperation since the products are competition to each other. All this talk is just BS.

_________________
#amiga.org @ irc.synirc.net

I agree with elektro_O.

MorphOs and OS4 are competition, it is as simple as that.

Chances are that MorphOS may well just slip away when OS4 emerges, but that is not the real question - the real one is what is best for the community and in this MorphOS may well have a place.

OS4 has a planned future, this is one of its great bonuses, however, I do not see this as a platform where every old Amiga program should run. I see the emulation side as a burden that, aside from RTG programs, I do not think OS4 should be worried about or cater for.

I would like a clean hands OS4 that makes a distinct break with the past, compromises on the existence of a large body of well behaved RTG-ware and basically washes its hands of the rest.

If MorphOS specializied in emulating old machines then the the two could go together quiet well, leaving OS4 free to pursue its own development by shifting demands for emulation over to the MorphOS team.

After all running two Amiga systems isn't exactly like running two versions of windows at the same time.

It would be up to us to demand that OS4 be relatively clean of old emulations, and likewise that MorphOS should be supreme at emulation (digital archaeology).

OK this might not suit the MorphOS team - well the current situation does not suit the existing Amiga community nor the future community - my point being that by presenting a united front on such an issue makes the market for both - whereas competition will simply weaken both at this time and I have little doubt who the winner would be, but the whole competition approach will only make things slower.

Greg Schofield
Perth Australia

_________________
Greg Schofield, Perth Australia

I think it's good that Genesi is keeping the door open this way. I don't think an AOS port is going to happen as long as AI, Hyperion and Eyetech still haven't seen the fruits of their own project. But things could change quicker than we think, depending on how sales ramp up, how businesses survive, and so on.

Maybe some current Pegasos users are "politically" opposed to running AOS; most are not, from what I hear, and would consider buying it if it were available for the Pegasos and offered things that MorphOS doesn't. But the bigger question is what would be a nice package in the future. Both Amiga, Inc. and partners and Genesi need more sales than the Amiga market itself can provide, so a package that appeals to "outsiders" is critical.

I don't think MorphOS is any more likely to "fade away" when the "real" AOS is released than AmigaOS will necessarily fade away in the face of MorphOS. It seems to me that technically MorphOS has some advantages, especially looking forward to the q-box, although we hear AOS also has lots of rethought components, so we'll just have to wait to see which is better positioned for the future.

Anyway, Bill Buck seems to be pretty confident about MorphOS's capabilities since it doesn't bother him to see it and AmigaOS on the same hardware. It could be that the two OSs will go down increasingly divergent paths in the future, so they could coexist for that reason. It could also be that one will eventually make the other redundant. I suppose as long as Pegasos hardware/products are selling for whatever reason, the loss of MorphOS would be acceptable. But I personally doubt that Bill Buck feels MorphOS will be killed by AOS. In the best of all worlds, I imagine it'd be nice to get the advantages of both, not only software-features-wise but from a business/marketing/brand standpoint, but that seems to be a pretty unlikely scenario.

The thing about the current Amiga partnership is that Eyetech is protected from competition regarding Amiga OS. True, any hardware manufacturer is supposed to be able to license AOS, but realistically I wonder if agreeable terms could be reached. With Pegasos now receiving ports of 10 OSs, and with MorphOS presently capable of meeting the needs that AOS is also designed to meet, it doesn't make sense for Genesi to *pay* for an AOS port. If Amiga, Inc. and Hyperion would like to see income from the additional sales of AOS on Pegasos, then they might be expected to do the port under the same conditions as all the other ports are being done. The payoff for the work of the port is increased sales. Of course they may not think it's worth it, and in fact it might not be until hardware sales are higher. In any case, I'm sure they won't even consider it until AmigaOne/AOS4 sales are charted for a while. And I can't see Eyetech being very happy about sharing the present Amiga-users market with Genesi.

But it's good to see the openness so far; it's a first step.

-- gary_c

@ gary_c

Quote:

Eyetech is protected from competition regarding Amiga OS.

Incorrect, for example Genesi was offered the exact same deal. Also AmigaOS4 will first be available for classic Amigas. However Genesi is fully protected with regard to MorphOS, as Genesi owns both the hardware and software. This is why I favor 3rd party partnerships. It generally results into more freedom for the OS developing company, due to fewer conflicting interests.

With regard to future partnerships, I never would say never. But with the current Genesi managers and the way Amiga and their partners have been treated and burned, I would not hold my breath.

There could be some potential for common APIs to allow developers to easily support AmigaOS, MorphOS, AROS, etc and it was always my hope that some common ground could be found on those lines for mutual benefit.

However, I feel that there's too much hostility, mud slinging and miscommunication going around. I don't see an end to that happening soon, if ever, which is a great shame.

_________________
Snowboarder, Airsofter, Programmer, Writer and AmigaOne XE G4 owner.
Experienced applications developer and part-time snowboard instructor

Quote:

Anyway, Bill Buck seems to be pretty confident about MorphOS's capabilities since it doesn't bother him to see it and AmigaOS on the same hardware

Ever heard of paying lip service?

I have tried to get this discussion going but it seems alot of effort would need to be spent before even getting and asnwer to my 3 questions.

This is how I read them:

1. sure of cousre we will but.......

2.We cannot star this until certain compromises have already bee made such as....(I dont think BBRV's intetions are clear or I would not have asked these question to begin with)
3.Giving up just about all the reqirements for OS4 that we would have to comply with, and have it running on our board.Now I will add alot of irrelevant information.

Thats the way I see these answers.Yeah we will compromise, but you have to port OS4 to our board first, at which time a compromise is no longer needed by us.The only thing remaining is the right to call our machine an AmigaOne or not.

This last bit really becomes a bit moot as they wont really need to do this, the community will recognise that the pegos can run both OS's and in many cases wont matter if it is an official amiga machine or not.

I am disappointed to say the least.

_________________

Quote:

Ever heard of paying lip service?

Sure. By that in this case do you mean maybe he's just talking but not really expecting anyone to take him up on it? This is quite possible, and he's safe because AOS won't be ported officially as long as the current partners are working together. What I'm thinking is that maybe some months on, say after Amiga, Inc.'s current situation is resolved and/or some conclusions can be drawn about the AmigaOne sales trend/prospects, then things may shake out one way or another and AOS on Pegasos might look more plausible from a business standpoint. From the product side, this will be easier to speculate about once we both see AOS4 in action and see how fast MorphOS gets new upgrades.

-- gary_c

Quote:

gary_c wrote: Quote: Ever heard of paying lip service? Sure. By that in this case do you mean maybe he's just talking but not really expecting anyone to take him up on it?

That is absolutely what I mean.

Quote:

What I'm thinking is that maybe some months on, say after Amiga, Inc.'s current situation is resolved and/or some conclusions can be drawn about the AmigaOne sales trend/prospects, then things may shake out one way or another and AOS on Pegasos might look more plausible from a business standpoint.

Agreed.

Regards

Dave.

@IonMane

You will probably succeed at getting the various users to start to co-operate a bit more but certain nicknames are really only in it for the thrill of the fight and will never change.

As for the companies? I think snowballs in a supernova.

I think that MetalJoe might have hit the nail on the head as a first step.

If both OSs support the same industry standard APIs and run on similar hardware then we'll be likely to see a lot of projects being developed to run on either OS.

Also what could be an option for the Pegesos2 if BBRV feels that AInc's Lisencing is too expensive to support, would be developing the Peggy2 with a view to allowing a third party (or in house as an additional option) to lisence the peggy2 and have the dongle added as a paid for option.

This would give the best of both worlds as users who are interested in running AOS4 on the peggy2 would have the option to make their boards complient for an additional fee without BBRV having to pay the lisence fees for machines where AOS4 isn't required.

With the Peggy to Peggy2 upgrade deal their might be too few Peggy owners left to make AOS4 a viable option on the Peggy with the Peggy2 in development.

Possiblr I guess.
The thing that is being overlooked here is that BBRV wants OS4 on the pegasos before he even thinks about talking again.
As we all know OS4 require a dongle, a hardware change to the pegasos which BBRV refuses to do.

If he gets OS4 onto the pegasos without the dongle then AmigaOne certification becomes completely academic, and he will have to make no further efforts.

Like I have said, he will compromise when he no longer needs to compromise.

However, the pegasos is sold out and pegasos II is yet to be released so trying t discuss this any further is mere speculation.You never know, BBRV may pleasantly surprise us, but I won't be holding my breathe.

I do have an idea in mind that may provide a solution, byt it will take alot of work before I would feel comfortable in saying what that solution is.

_________________