I read other sites hoping to pick up some Amiga news. I don't like what I see there. I haven't seen it here, it's moderated before it upsets me. This is good.

DoodooHead

_________________
Amiga user since 1985.

Aye lads ..

Your doing a grande job !!

I only came here for the A1 forums as well. I was asked to by Rose (since I'm not on the a1users mailing list).

I must say the critique (sp?) I've seen elsewhere has been of the form:

Complaining dude:
My comment was modded for no apparent reason, I didn't really mean all those bad words. And there was a smiley at the end as well!!!

Moderator:
Well, if you didn't mean the bad words, you shouldn't have written them, smiley or not.

Complaining dude:
You guys suck if you don't understand jokes like that!

and so on.

I must say, if someone doesn't actually mean harm, he shouldn't have a hard time understanding why such a comment gets moderated. Bad language IS bad, no matter if there's a smiley at the end of a long sentence. If it's not meant, it isn't needed either.

So just keep going, but do a sanity check from time to time. I once tried suggesting to Mr Decanini (moderator on ANN) that moderators should moderate, not insult people (he posted the FIRST comment in a thread, throwing dirt at the submitter, and hinted that the post was a fake. Later he found some evidence and edited the post with a "probably fake" comment. He just couldn't understand why throwing dirt FIRST, THEN moderating was something I couldn't support. Then he called me a red troll. As if! I don't even support Amiga Inc, for crying out loud. But I guess I'm in league with the devil (Alan Redhouse) as far as a Pegasos reseller like Christophe is concerned...)

Anyway, the point is that if moderators actively try to stir up #### instead of calming down discussions, we'll NEVER get a good discussion going. So do the sanity check from time to time, ok?

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

I think you all do a very good job.

This is the only English Amiga site i visit. I think the other ones spend more time criticising if someone do anyting.

I feel home at your site. Here the news and other good stuff is'nt follow by af flamewar....

Controller

Keep up the good work

Thanks a lot for the feedback guys.

@ Jules_s

Thanks for your comments and I believe you deserve a reaction, and especially as you are not alone with regard to feeling strongly (positive or negative) about the way this issue was handled.

The issue with regard to this individual was a rather complex one. Such as this person regularly spreads his dislike of AW at other websites while seekings confrontations anonymously here. After the discovery of abuse by the person posting under the (fake) Real Name "Ben Drebben", the staff had an in depth discussion regarding this user's abuse and this person's behaviour and it was decided it would be best to treat the issue as openly as possible.

Personally I supported this course of action mainly due to the following three reasons 1) because I had private communications with this person in the past and he acted unconstructively and spread nonsense about our private communications to the public and I don't like to see such a thing happen again, 2) he wasted much of my personal time when for instance I was asked by this person to "help" him personally with answering his questions, while true help was clearly not his intention and personally I would have been extremely thankful if someone revealed his identity earlier, and so I would not like to see such things happen to other people, 3) this person attacks and spreads untruths about this website and staff at other forums while trying to initiate problems here, and thus by handling the issue openly this reveals the hypocracy of this person and devaluates any claims he may make (or had made) against this website in public.

I am not saying that the way we approached the issue was really good, but it was certainly an approach which genuinely looked like the best option at that point of time. For me personally the 2 main goals have been reached. 1) The abuse seems to have stopped, without stories being made up of private communications. 2) The behaviour of this person is now public knowledge and will likely result into less people falling victum to his behaviour and people will take his words less seriously.

The downfall of course is that not everyone may agree with this course of action and then I especially think about people who may have relations with this person.

But IMO by showing a security camera recording on television or a picture in a newspaper with regard to the true identity of an abuser, it's IMO still the abuser who is at fault when found guilty. It's hard to say how we will react to similar situations in the future, as with some issues/people I believe there is simply no good option available.

Jules_s, thanks alot for sharing your point of view and I hope I made some sense too.

I visit A.O, AmigaArt, & A.N.N. regularly to check for news. On A.O I generally read forum threads about recent news only until a fight breaks out. Most of my posts there as here are to technical threads or about applications.

Normally I'm explosively anti-censorship. Get me started & I'll do twenty to thirty minutes off the cuff about the general stupidity of the Self-Anointed Censors and their actions.

This does not apply to what I see here at AW. Aside from the news, I started coming here because I heard that one of the purposes of this site was to keep things civil. The subjects generally acceptable for discussion have been clearly stated. When you sign in you accept those rules. (Granted, I could start lobbying to change those rules, but that would be from within and by those rules.)

I read more threads here than on any other site. As far as I can see, the moderation here keeps the forums more or less on topic and relatively free of name calling. Civilized people should be able to discuss most differences of opinion without verbal brawling. The topic is computers, not religion!

As far as I'm concerned: Keep On As Before.

I really enjoy going to an AMIGA site and reading about Amiga related things. The staff here seems open minded but manage to keep the discussions on track. Keep up the great work, guys!

OK, I'll add my 2p worth...

I visit this news/forum site far more than any other for the simple reason that it isn't full of the childish slanging matches that my previous preferred sites now contain. I can have a sensible, civilised conversation with adults about serious or fun subjects. That really is 90% of why I'm here.

Some people, mostly on other sites, feel strongly that this is due to harsh moderation around here. I'm sorry, but I haven't even seen any moderation in the threads I've looked at over the last months. Maybe I'm unobservant or something, but it can't be all that heavy if I've seen nothing.

Some people believe the world should have no moderation, no censorship, no rules. In my opinion, this is overly simplistic and impractical. It requires people to be mature and sensible and hold respect for each other. Unfortunately, there's always someone who doesn't. If you really need such an environment there are other places that can serve your need (and IMHO, show exactly why it's a bad idea).

People also regularly accuse this site of being heavily pro-Amiga or overly "fanatical" to the point of blindness to the real world. Frankly, this is a ridiculous point of view to seriously hold. One or two people can be totally deluded about a subject, but 1600+ members? I think not.

The problem is that the most vocal opponents of this site can't get away with rudely interjecting off-topic distorted truths in favour of their point of view, or attacking anyone who does not share their views. All these threads take the same form, with counter-arguments being deflected using the old tricks of diversion, changing the subject, or denying the validity of the original argument. It gets very tiresome seeing every thread on every topic degenerate into the same old "broken record". (This is not a general attack of MOS/Peg users. There are many MOS/Peg and indeed AROS and UAE users who feel no need to behave childishly and, in fact, post here regularly.) The fact that people doing the same in favour of the "official" Amiga would also get moderated is conveniently ignored. This thread, for example, is prime material for people to sneer at, as the vast majority of people so far are saying the site is good. I can just see it now, some comment about "all sucking up to the great gods of AW" or some such. But notice that those people who have posted negative replies have NOT been attacked or derided, and have had polite responses from the staff.

What should be moderated? Stuff which has drifted totally off-topic, whether or not it's rude or insulting. A discussion on the "ideal keyboard layout" (to invent a subject) may naturally drift onto favourite colours of keys, but should not have comments about Amiga-Inc business practices, the relative speeds of AMD chips vs Intel, or even a fun but pointless discussion of marmalade. Once a thread has drifted off for more than half a dozen comments, anyone trying to post back on-topic is put off and/or ignored, which is bad for the evolvement of "to-the-point" discussion.

Note, that I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to discuss these things, just that there is a time and place. If you want to talk about these things, start a new topic. Perhaps you could invent a new way to "split" a thread into another one, so people can discuss side-issues separately.

I also think you should clearly show when a thread or comment has been moderated and why. We can then see that every other comment has indeed been edited or moderated as has been suggested, or that in fact you have to look hard to find this week's moderated comment.

Well, that's a hell of a lot for 2p, but I hope it helps the site staff.

Quote:

As you are aware, the Amigaworld staff have come in for very strong criticism on the way we moderate or police this site.

If you guys were moderating too heavily the users would complain in one way or another. Don't be so insecure.

That said, the way Matt's issue was handled was wrong. I don't care if you have "video cameras." Respect each other as human beings. Human beings make mistakes. That is how we learn. 'nuff said.

_________________
ExecSG Team Lead

AW.net is easily the best Amiga forum, I think you guys are running it just fine. I think you can take pride in the fact that membership numbers rise daily, and in the clear overall support that has been shown in this and other threads.

Keep up the great work, the AW team!

_________________
A600 OS3.1 ACA620 | '030 A1200 OS3.5 | µA1-C 750GX OS4.1 | SAM460 OS4.1 | '040 A3000 OS2.1 | Christian Aid |

@ ssolie

Quote:

If you guys were moderating too heavily the users would complain in one way or another. Don't be so insecure.

I believe it may not be a bad idea to keep polling the userbase's opinion from time to time. Although everyone involved at AmigaWorld are handling situations to the best of our knowledge, the moderators too will make (and have made) mistakes and miscalculations.

Quote:

That said, the way Matt's issue was handled was wrong.

Maybe, personally I made a judgement based on my recent encounters with Matt. It was not my intention to humiliate Matt (despite he did try to do this to me), but to expose him and send out a clear message.

Quote:

I don't care if you have "video cameras."

In case you wonder, it was pure coincidence. We don't have "cameras" recording our users with every step they make.

However I have seen video recordings on television about cooks doing truly nasty things with their food, employees urinating in the director's office or for instance a president telling the *world* that he indeed had a sexual relationship with another women. Just to name a few far more severe cases of "humiliation".

Matt was only revealed to be a troll. IMO life goes on and he is welcome to post here at AmigaWorld if he does not repeat his actions.

Quote:

Please keep, your comments, constructive and do not post in a manner that may be deemed inflamatory or insultive.

ok. NP here :)

The only moderation I've noticed recently aparted from Matt's exposue (which I thought was handled correctly as he DID use the two accounts for propaganda purposes) was of a certain 'Professional Amiga 2500' user who does tend to get over excited at times if he doesn't get his afternoon nap
That too was handled well from my point of view although he complained, but those of you who know him wouldn't expect anything else...

Keep up the good work

_________________
OS4 Rocks
X1000 beta tester, Sam440 Flex (733)

Visit the Official OS4 Support Site for more help.

It may be that your sole purpose is to serve as a warning to others.

Perhaps it's because I'm not as frequent a visitor as many here, but I don't have a clue what the fuss is about...

Strict moderation? Where? I never experienced it yet...

*knock at door*

...excuse me...

*several raised voices*

*sound of rhythmical pounding with baseball bats and a body collapsing into the dirt*

- just kidding.

Seriously, I like it here. I like amiga.org too. Maybe it's because I simply don't have time for flamefests...

_________________
Doing stupid things for fun...

First of all -- very good to see a thread of this nature here!
AW has seen a lot of critiscism for quite some time and it
would be foolish to only pin this on a "Genesi conspiracy",
on "blue trolls", or on "unconstructive people, only
wanting to stir things up". Those cathegories of critics (I'm
doubting the conspiracy theories though) may very well be
present as well , but it is wise to also do some
soul-searching instead of switching to agressive defense
right away.

First of all, overall I haven't noticed massive
moderation on here. I do find that some rather extremist
attitudes have prevailed from time to time though. The
perhaps clearest thing I noticed personally was the
situation that arose to gary_c leaving AW. Now gary_c
made no secret he had a Pegasos and was interested in
both platforms. He also made no secret of being critical of
AInc. I don't think anyone here can claim that gary_c
posted "trollish" or "derogatory" comments.
Now if that particular thread was turning out of hand and
had to be locked, is a matter for the moderators. I don't
have any particular objections to that, in itself. But the fact
that several people (I think a mod too, but I might remember
erroneously) straight out told gary_c that he should just as
well leave the site if he felt the way he did, now that is just
plain intolerable. Noone should ever be allowed to use
"...then leave!" as a counter argument against someone of
a different opinion, without severe punishment from
administration. That is extremist attitudes, and I'm
ashamed to have seen it (and I'm responsible too for not
reacting more strongly at the time). And sure thing, he did
leave, and I still claim AW is poorer for it.

Now, that was a specific example. In that particular case I'm
sure there are plenty of different viewpoints and all parties
had some rights or wrongs in that discussion. I'm not
looking for explanations on that one, just telling the way I
interpreted it, and thus others might have interpreted it,
right or wrong.
Let me thus move on to a more general point: Is a calm
discussion really worth the cost of eliminating also the
potentially flame-worthy threads even before they
have begun to deteriorate? Even though I haven't seen this
happen all that often, it is sometimes the impression I have
of the prevailing attitude among users and staff on AW.

Now, I'm not saying this is something happening all the
time on AW -- I think I have seen it perhaps one or two
times in all my time here. But I can understand why it raises
questions of bias.
The definitions of "flameworthy" must be set up much more
clearly for the moderators to follow. A list must be set up,
and followed. Example: Are there personal insults
involved? Are there bad words used to attack someone
else? Moderate the posts or lock the thread. Are there talk
about T-shirts, advantages of MOS vs AOS? Allow it, but
lock it as soon as personal insults come into play (for
example). Do people want to discuss such things, I say, let
them. If the threads are moderated consitently they WILL
not get out of hand. That some people "are tired of seeing
the same discussion over and over again", is, well, a quite
arrogant stance, in my view. I might also not be interested
in yet another T-shirt thread. But some other person might
be. Who am I to judge that "uninteresting"? As long as the
thread is civil and don't break any posting rules, why
should it be labeled "flammable"?

So, to summarize, clear moderation rules for the mods, for
all to see. Personally I prefer to allow threads also on
"flame-potential" subjects. But it certain subjects (if any)
are frowned upon by the site administration, it should at
least be stated somewhere, clearly. The triggers for
moderation must be crystal clear -- e.g. "Personal insults
are modded, five personal insults in a thread locks it, if the
insulted party demands it" (or something in that vein).

... To finish off, I do like the site. There are things here,
people and information you cannot find anywhere else.
That's why I've put so much effort into writing down my
opinions on the matter. Perhaps it will give someone,
somewhere, some new ideas or insights.
.
SlimJim

Quote:

Mikey_C wrote: Fellow members. As you are aware, the Amigaworld staff have come in for very strong criticism on the way we moderate or police this site. We would like to think that we have your support in the way we run this site. However, we would welcome any comments you may have with regards to the way Amigaworld is moderated. We are especially keen to hear from members who have been with Amigaworld for at least 2 months or more. Please keep, your comments, constructive and do not post in a manner that may be deemed inflamatory or insultive. Thank you for your input. Amigaworld Staff

Lesse, you "are especially keen to hear from members who have been with Amigaworld for at least 2 months or more."
I am a "Member Since: 22-Mar-2003." So I am who you are looking to hear from.

Concerning strong critisism. I hope the criticism is good. I have never seen any bad moderation since I have been reading AW. In fact I am here and writing this response because AW has become the friendly news source concerning AMIGA that has surpassed all others. Well, to be fair, there is not another friendly Amiga news source out there.

By Amiga news source I mean just that. Not Amiga clone, or Amiga like, or Amiga wannabe, or Amiga compatible. Not that I do not like keeping up with the market mind you. There is a place for the discussion of other computers. In fact there are forums on AW where other systems can be discussed. But when someone wants to interrupt a discussion about Amiga with non/anti amiga related things then I expect it to be moderated. I am gratefull it is moderated.

Bad language is another thing I do not mind being moderated.

Moderation in moderation is good. AW is doing it correctly so far. If anyone says otherwise then consider the source.

This is the best forum ever, nice job guys!
AmigaWorld totally rocks!!!




/shoe - What was the question again? I think I better hit the sack. shoe, you're talking to yourself again. What?! Shut Up! Neeeej ...

Quote:

I could be wrong, but I don't think the moderators have ever "moderated" posts simply because they have been critical.

Take Drebben's example: Mike Bouma has publicly stated that Drebben has been trolling all along, and to show such a claim was true, he posted some excerpt from Drebben's posts, one of which was a question directed to Fleecy Moss, asking something along the lines of "How is it possible that you saw AmigaOS4 running on an AOne more than one year ago, when in fact it first booted on an AmigaONE only few months ago?". Well, to me it seems a totally legit question, which has however been used against Brenden as proof of his trolling.

Moreover, Drebben, aka Matt Parsons, has been publicly attacked for using an account with fake identity, but I ask: is using fake identities a crime? Is using fake identities something which this site's rules explicitely forbid? Doesn't anyone else here use fake identities? I even see, browsing trough the list of users, that there are users who don't have an identity at all: shouldn't they be asked to remove their account too?

Matt Parson posted with Drebben's identity and NOT with bloodline's one until the day he's started posting with bloodline's account. Until that day, that is, he never used double accounts. However, that same day he mistakely logged in with Drebben's account and posted a comment he intended to post under bloodline's identity: could he really be put on shame for that, as it has been done? Did he really do anything wrong? Can you for real say he did something wrong? Do you have any proofs he would have continued using Drebben's account? And, moreover, do you have any proofs no one else does it right now? We have one example over all about this issue: DaveP has used 3 different accounts in the past, and he admitted doing it because he wanted to stir up troubles. Don't you find it at least hyronic, that someone who has a certain moderation power on this site doesn't get blamed and someone who's just a casual user does?

I say: open your eyes, people, you're being manipulated. Truth is being manipulated.

== EDITED ==
Removed typos, changed Brenden into Drebben, and added DaveP's mention, which I deem important to fully give the picture of the situation.

i'm not trying to start a flame, I'm just exposing my opinion on the moderation on this site, as it has been asked. Nonetheless, I'll continue visiting this place as long as I'll find anything interesting to look at or participate in.
===========

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

Hello Jules_s,

We shouldn't associate public ridicule with showing what actually happened (what he did). I would rather know why a nick/member/digizen vanished, than a "Star Chamber" verdict


1 board digizen, 1 account, is important for a site to not look like it's stacking the figures (you know how accountants have been being run up the flag pole in the last 5 years?)

2nd thing is, he didn't tell anyone that both nicks are him, regardless of who he was. You think you are responding to 2 different people if engaging in a conversation.

Please correct/mod/respond to this if it is wrong, I believe he responded to HIMSELF. Don't you find that odd?

How can your credibility NOT suffer from doing such things?

Again, I thought it was handled perfectly, and EVEN ANYONE who started hurling insults at/about him, would have been modded.

How fair is that? 100%!!


AmigaWorld.Net! On course, .. of course!!

Quote:

Please correct/mod/respond to this if it is wrong, I believe he responded to HIMSELF. Don't you find that odd?

Where exactly? I don't see any posts from bloodline in the forums, and I can't search the news the same way I search the forums.

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

Quote:

Where exactly? I don't see any posts from bloodline in the forums, and I can't search the news the same way I search the forums.

Ok, I see what you're probably talking about : there are 2 post from Drebben in the news item regarding the native compiler for AROS, but these posts are NOT a reply to bloodline's posts, one just says AROS is good, and the other is a copy'n'paste of a post made at ANN, given as response to someone who asked the same question which was asked at ANN and whose answer was the one Matt pasted.

It's hardly anyhing bad Matt did, I can't really understand how can you people think the matter has been handled properly, it's evident it has not, just like it's evident Matt did nothing wrong.

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford