@MikeB

Quote:

Actually a leak originating from (according to BBRV) one of BBRV's drunk employees got most of the public attention during the times of turmoil. The rumours of copyright IP theft by Ralph Schmidt were already circulating long before the current Amiga Inc incorporated or that the MorphOS project officially got started.

Eh? What the hell are you talking about? Amiga Inc had been threatening the MorphOS project since *LONG* before BB came into the picture. Do you forget the "Get legal or be shut down" announcement? One of the reasons for which they teamed up with Thendic in the first place was that. No matter if Amiga Inc had money or not, a lawsuit would stop MorphOS/Pegasos sales until a resolution, which would kill bPlan in no time, no matter if they were innocent or not. Now, "rumours" blah blah blah, I heard a rumour that you killed my cat. I'll go out and start shouting it. Do I have proof? Nope. Will you sue me? Yes. That's the point. You seem to forget stuff like "... while recompiling AmigaOS 3.1 source code", "hobby OS by hobby developers" and some other nice statements like this...

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@AMiGR

Yes, I recall the same. Although Amiga Inc were cleverer than that, they said only that those that were breaking IP law had to get legal, in public, and when pushed, never admitted who it was officially ( implying Haage and Partner a few times ).

The people that drew the link were:

1. Bill Buck, in the infamous drunken employee incident. See where Fleecy spells it out to him, bb made that email public.

2. Community members.

I recall at the time just saying 'wait for the court case' ( that Amiga Inc would need to bring ), but thats not what people remember of me either, for some reason.

But Mike is right over the rumours, the rumours had already started circulating as early as 2000, and then there was a rumour that Harry Sintonen ( Piru ) had got a copy of the sources to release his infamous patch off, if that was true, and he went onto join the MorphOS core team, certainly they would find it difficult to prove they had cleanroomed it in judiciaries where that is required.

Dave.

@AMiGR

Quote:

Ehm, Mike, who was it that distributed fliers that the ArticiaS is broken? It was Eyetech.

I am sorry, but I can't possibly believe that. Eyetech's position has always been that the ArticiaS isn't broken at all, but simply lacks hardware cache coherency like is the case on the classics.

Eyetech's real problem was with the under documented VIA southbridge, which costed Mai Logic, Eyetech and the AmigaOS4 team a lot of time, money and energy for its issues to be addressed.

Quote:

evelop an ultra expensive fix

AFAIK the production costs of the April1 chip was only a few cents. Also the R&D costs to solve the cache coherency problem (simply disable DMA-like performance?) would certainly have costed a *lot* less than the A1 partners invested into solving the VIA southbridge proplem.

Quote:

Now, who should wish they had never partnered with whom?

Without Mai there probably wouldn't have been a Pegasos1 product, thus there may not have been a bPlan to worry about at all.

Quote:

Sorry Mike, MAI has proved that they are utterly incompetent.

The ArticiaS had few issues for a completely new chip developed by a startup company. The lack of cache coherency isn't really a problem for AmigaOS4, unlike is the case with the current drivers (system) available for Linux. And unlike some people on the blue side of the fence claimed full IDE DMA performance would not be possible. (First this was already proved in combination with external IDE DMA controllers due to the VIA southbridge problem, now also in combination with the VIA Southbridge IDE DMA controller.)

Last edited by MikeB on 24-May-2005 at 07:51 AM.

@MikeB

There was an Amiga show where either eyetech or someone on their behalf did just that. I believe it was 'Pegasos is broken hardware' ( true, but it was in beta for gods sake ), and went on to explain a few things about it. Memory is hazy there.

I also recall a speech by Alan at a show where he mentions how annoyed he was about the fact one of the chip suppliers had produced below quality stuff.

Genesi only started THEIR propaganda campaign after they had already decided to cut their losses and go with Marvel.

If Im wrong, apologies to Alan.

Dave.

Hi Acill,


I guess the bottom line is that $15,000 isn't enough to get an 87% completed OS.

All the hard works been done, and now bypass to let rot Eyetech, meanwhile, initially, they put a ton of cash on the line? I don't think so.


I'm not happy that the 20 questions haven't been answered yet, but not that unhappy.

@Wiffy

Sorry Dave, the ones that drew the line weren't only them. Do you forget Ben Hermans? Did he not draw the line? Both quotes I pasted were his.

Mike is right in that there were rumours. Without evidence, rumours are nothing but rumours and when they imply criminalization of someone, they are on a very thin line to become libel.

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Sure this is from the annals of one of the companies involved, Genesi, but it shows Im not totally misremembering:

Quote:

November: Thendic-France attend the "World of Amiga" show in Britain. The british Amiga dealer Eyetech distributes a flyer which indicates that the Articia has bugs. Thendic-France, who did never say anything publically about this before, are not happy and call Mai. Mai say they will fix the problem with Eyetech. Everything goes quiet on the Mai end. bplan work on finishing the patch. All the technical information is provided to Mai. According to Genesi, without bplan it was not possible for Mai to fix even what then was fixed on the Articia. For 2003, the merger of the companies bplan GmbH and Thendic-France S.a.r.l. is announced to become the Luxembourg-based Genesi S.a.r.l. under supervision of PricewaterhouseCoopers.

@AMiGR

Yes but at the time wasn't he just a prominent community member?

@MikeB

You are misinformed Mike. First of all, the "lack of cache coherency by design" stuff are nothing but BS, the ArticiaS documentation given to Ralph Schmidt by MAI talked about cache coherency all the time. It *was supposed* to be supported but it didn't work. THAT was the bug. Now, lack of cache coherency is not a problem for operating systems and drivers written with that in mind, like OS4. It means that you get abysmal support on any other OS (including Linux) though while cripples the potential market of such a board.
Now, on the 133MHz FSB and G4 problems, I guess that it's the same thing as with the memory. The CPU card introduced longer traces which, combined with the weak signal drive of the ArticiaS (that causes the memory problems), made it unstable at 133MHz and with the G4.

Edit: Some more info added.

Last edited by AMiGR on 24-May-2005 at 08:06 AM.

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@Wiffy

A prominent community member with *very* close relations to Amiga Inc. (remember that Hyperion were doing that Ami3D AmigaDE thingie back then).

Note: My whole point is not that x is dirtier than y... It is that in that "war", *every* side in the community was in sh** up to the head. Noone was more guilty or more innocent.

Last edited by AMiGR on 24-May-2005 at 08:09 AM.

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@AMiGR

Over the last few months Ive come to the conclusion that whilst a few extremely militant blues miss the war and do all they can to restart it most 'blues' have got past all that and just want to live-and-let-live with the rest of the community.

I haven't kept tabs on the reds, but I know its certainly been the case here for a long while.

True?

@Wiffy

The war ended long ago, what you are saying is true. Some very militant reds (toaks, chip and others) do the same as the very militant blues, being trolls (yes, and on this site too), which proves one thing: Trolls are trolls, no matter the colour...

I didn't want to reactivate any flamewar, I just hate it when people try to change history to make their side look less bad then the other (while both were dirty...).

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@AMiGR

Im not saying you are, I read morphos-news.de a lot, and morphzone, and ann once or twice, and I get glimpses that despite the wishes of some - that the war that got them so entertained in the first place should return - most are utterly bored with it. A recent news item posted by the owner of the website elicted a negative reaction from his readers for example . Yes I do consider the owner of that particular news website to be a bit of a big fat hairy troll .

Historical discussions are fine, don't worry about flamewars.

All we need is for the irc channel logbots to be switched off and for people to continue to talk together like this and all need for any organised effort to end the three year long dispute will dissapear. Like the dispute.

@Wiffy

There is only one thing that never changed: My love for Samface!

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@AMiGR

Hehehe Bless him.

I wonder where he is now? What his opinions are - if they are still so forthright?

@Wiffy

Still the same, he posted some masterpieces very recently.

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@AMiGR

Quote:

You are misinformed Mike. First of all, the "lack of cache coherency by design" stuff are nothing but BS, the ArticiaS documentation given to Ralph Schmidt by MAI talked about cache coherency all the time.

I am not misinformed with regard to this, you seem to be. You claimed that Eyetech stated the ArticiaS was broken, even from Genesi's perspective as quoted by DaveP this is not backed up.

Of course the ArticiaS wasn't bug free, just like the classic Amigas were not bug free. But nor the classic Amigas, nor the ArticiaS were "broken".

Quote:

made it unstable at 133MHz and with the G4.

AFAIK, this seems to have been a Pegasos1 specific problem.

Last edited by MikeB on 24-May-2005 at 12:15 PM.

@AMiGR

Quote:

Sorry Dave, the ones that drew the line weren't only them. Do you forget Ben Hermans? Did he not draw the line? Both quotes I pasted were his.

AFAIK people like Ben Hermans and Dave Haynie only publicly shared their perspective on some specific Amiga mailing lists. before the drunk employee dragged the issue into general forums, by leaking a private official warning letter.

IMO considering the signs of abuse, Amiga Inc was right to send a private warning letter at the time. If you don't protect your IP, you will stand extremely weak in court and are subject to further abuse.

Anyway Bill Buck (ex VisCorp CEO) would probably have done the same in Amiga Inc's position:

Quote:

Property Rights Infringement It has come to our attention that several companies plan to build their own "compatible" or "extended" versions of the Amiga without obtaining the proper licensing from VIScorp. These companies will be placing themselves at legal risk, because their systems will undoubtedly infringe on Amiga intellectual property rights, including copyrights, patents, and trade secrets. In addition, we have recently become aware that versions of the Amiga System ROMs are being reproduced and distributed without proper licensing. This is a violation of international copyright law, and VIScorp will prosecute offenders to the full extent of the law. Realize that VIScorp is purchasing Amiga Technologies at great expense for ownership of precisely the above property rights and considers them a fundamental asset of the company. As such, VIScorp intends to aggressively defend its position as the owner of the Amiga and its related technologies. Companies that choose to violate the law are well advised to consider the easier and less costly path of obtaining a license.

Of course this was again Bill Buck pre-empting wrong outcomes, as VisCorp never actually purchased Amiga Technologies.

A fellow moderator has locked this topic, and forgot to place the reason. I think it was:

"Degraded into a regular flamefest with old topics like chipsets, companies saying this or that and so on. This has nothing to do with the original topic and has no place on AW."

Regards

Dave.