oops

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@thread

Oh well, time to make some pop corn....

Last edited by tomazkid on 20-Jan-2006 at 05:19 PM.

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@samface

Because Amiga Inc. makes idiotic decisions, Samface, they'd have AmigaOS4 running on a set top box (a port financed by the authors of the STB), they'd have OS4 running on the Pegasos (financed by Acill) and Hyperion would be able to choose some hardware and support it, just like that.
If we remove the peg from the equation, I think that you'll find that many people would like what I just
said.
What's the situation currently? No AmigaOS4 because there is no hardware, the current hardware is unrepairable with no guarantee and it's distributor MIA, so much for the scheme protecting the customer and ensuring a level of quality and service.
It was all b0ll0cks, as I was saying back in the day, and was being called a troll.
Amiga Inc. is a bunch of clueless morons.

Anyway, I don't think that there's any point for me to argue with you, you'd defend them even if they killed off OS4 and sold adult games bearing the Amiga name and boingball coloured you know what.

Last edited by AMiGR on 20-Jan-2006 at 05:25 PM.
Last edited by AMiGR on 20-Jan-2006 at 05:23 PM.
Last edited by AMiGR on 20-Jan-2006 at 05:20 PM.

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@tomazkid

Oh well, time to make some pop corn....


Allready starting on my third bag...

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Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
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@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @Seehund Quote: Neither AInc nor Hyperion own, create or control any hardware IP. This argument is old and repeated by you far too many times now. When and where did I say anything that would even come close to contradict that? I talked about the AmigaOS4 licensing scheme, what other licensing scheme do you think I could possibly be talking about? Amiga Inc. owns no hardware intellectual properties that I know of, maybe some related to the old classic Amiga computers but that's it.

What you quoted wasn't an argument of mine. It's an observation of facts. You were arguing with AMiGR, talking about owner's privileges which you claim would somehow disappear if the current licensing scheme had been different. That's a load of illogical nonsense, of course. AInc's/Hyperion's privileges as owners are all about what they own -- AmigaOS, not hardware.

Quote:

Quote: Replacing an old licensing scheme for a new one is the same as VOIDING, ANNULLING, TRASHING, CANCELLING the old one. Then the old one is no more. It has ceased to be. Is there a "Duh!" smiley? What I was trying to point out was the difference between removing a license and replacing it.

You're only pretending to be intellectually challenged again, I hope.
There is no difference. We're talking about the current compulsory hardware vendor licensing scheme. The "no licensee = no port and no sales" one. If a licensing scheme or agreement is replaced with a new one, then the old one is removed.

Quote:

This because AmiGR argued that it was the licensing scheme that was preventing AmigaOS4 from running on more hardware alternatives

Primarily, yes. Removing this scheme would naturally not mean that hardware gets automagically supported. Despite you having tried to put words to the contrary in my mouth before, you shouldn't really need to get this explained, should you?

Quote:

and that removing it would in itself somehow grant Hyperion the privilidge to decide which hardware to support without Amiga Inc.'s interference. This is simply false because a licensing scheme can only grant privilidges, not revoke.

AMiGR or I have argued no such thing. All this seems to exist solely in your head.

Quote:

Quote: How do you know, considering he hasn't said so in this thread, and I haven't seen him say so anywhere else? Has anybody else said this? Not as far as I know. How do you interpret this quote of AmiGR then: Quote: without the licensing scheme, any company would be able to pay Hyperion for a port to their hardware and Hyperion could also self-finance a port that they see fit to do themselves. ? I mean, no matter how many times I read the "without the licensing scheme, any company would be able to" part, I simply cannot interpret it in any other way as that he is saying that removing the licensing scheme would in itself grant Hyperion the privilidge to decide which hardware support by themselves.

Of course you get it. If not, it seems to me like you're either pretending in order to invent some pointless semantic non-issue to argue over, or you're just being obtuse.
Read it a couple of times more, and you might notice the definite article "THE". Not the indefinite article "A", as in whatever licensing scheme. THE licensing scheme. One would presume that "the licensing scheme" is referring to the one we're actually talking about.

That AMiGR would suggest that there should be no other licensing in any form is only you making up or inferring things, for whatever reason. He didn't say this.

Quote:

Quote: AInc don't decide entirely on their own. The "AmigaOne partners" -- Eyetech -- are unfortunately and astonishingly enough involved in just that decisionmaking! If Amiga Inc. has granted Eyetech the privilidge to take part in these decissions or not is noone's but Amiga Inc.'s decission to make. Your point is null and void.

Aaaargh.
Eyetech claim that AInc have granted Eyetech influence on deciding on the approval of new licensees. Ergo: AInc do not decide on this approval entirely on their own. AInc have given up that privilege.


Quote:

Regarding your constant whining and baseless claims about the effects of the licensing scheme, please don't be afraid to tell us a little more about the kind of licensing scheme you would prefer. All I ever read from you is what can't be done because of the current licensing scheme, I would rather here something constructive like, what *can* be done with the kind of licensing scheme you have in mind?

"Us"? I posted suggestions IN THE GODDAMN POST YOU REPLIED TO! Are there more people who missed those? Do you think there are more people than you alone who have missed my suggestions posted earlier, like here and in the other Amiga fora, as well as in that bloody petition, and on the website I made for the petition? For something like three and a half bloody years?! Say it ain't so. :P

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Oh, bother.

@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @AMiGR Exactly as I wrote in my first reply to you in this thread then, you want a different set of terms of the licensing scheme. I guess what you mean by that the terms "should go" is that Amiga Inc. should grant Hyperion the right to develop for whatever hardware they see fit, right? My follow up question on that would then be; why? Is it because you think Hyperion would make more favorable decisions as to which hardware to support than Amiga Inc. or is it because you think it would speed up the decission making process if you cut down on a "middle man" and let hardware manufacturers/distributors turn to Hyperion directly?

You haven't read the license? Hardware manufacturers needed approval from "The AmigaOne Partners" (including EyeTech), not "Amiga Inc."

The Troika and other boards would not be possible if Eyetech were selling boards and decided to Veto it's competition. When Eyetech disappeared, we had to party like it's 1999 again.

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"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@hazydave

Dave,

I'd like to thank you for your contributions to this discussion. It has been interesting hearing your perspective on the past and current Amiga situation, from someone who was so much a part of the Commodore and post-Commodore era.

I'd like to ask you a couple of questions, if I might. It seems clear that you still regard your days at Commodore as the best times of your life. That passion also carried on to your work on the PIOS One. If you were given a job at a new company that had huge financial resources and told you could build any kind of hardware or software system today, what would you do?

You said that the PC today has become somewhat "boring" (I would tend to agree) and that you are having more fun these days on the cutting edge with your work on digital remote controlled vehicles. Do you believe that the desktop (or laptop) PC is fated to be forever boring for the rest of time, or is there still some excitement to be had in that space?

Lastly, say someone gave you all rights to all the Amiga IP, including hardware and operating system, and a bunch of money to do whatever you wanted with it. What would you do?

@AMiGR

So, it's because you think Hyperion would make more favorable decissions as to which hardware to support then. Next question; what makes you think Hyperion wouldn't have any influence at all in the decission of which hardware to support already? How do you explain the official AmigaOS4.0 website where they (Hyperion) state "However the clean AmigaOS codebase was written with portability in mind, so if you've got your heart set on another processor family, talk to us and we'll see what we can do. "? Isn't that doing exactly what you want Hyperion to be able to do, ie inviting hardware suppliers to talk to Hyperion directly with regards to adding support for their alternative hardware, even if it has a different processor family? Why would they do that if they didn't have a say in what hardware the AmigaOS4 should support? Furthermore, if the conclusion we can make is that Hyperion does indeed have a say in the matter, what makes you think Hyperion isn't supporting all the hardware that they want to support already? What specific hardware device are you saying that Hyperion would actually want to support but is prevented by Amiga Inc.?

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@T_Bone

Quote:

You haven't read the license?

I haven't read it nor have you. However, Alan Redhouse mentioned some kind of exclusivity clause once which does make sense. You can't focus much on supporting multiple hardware alternatives while developing the OS anyway. But like you said, this really isn't an issue anymore.

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@Seehund

All I can see in the last post of yours is just more not so much constructive rambling and more fuel to the argument about schemantics. I really can't be bothered anymore.

Carry on your crusade and save the AmigaOS from the evil licensing scheme, brave Don Quijote!

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

This discussion is clueless: there's no need to argue.

.The Pegasos2 is there. It's working as advertised. It's available NOW. It's quite open: a big number of Linux distributions already runs on it, as well as OpenSolaris,...

.OS4 has been delayed "because there's no hardware available today".

I don't know why OS4 hasn't been ported to the Pegasos2 (be it a licence problem, or because Hyperion can't bear Genesi/bPlan/MOS/whatever, because Eyetech didn't want that to happen, ...).

But the fact is that after having worked on 5+ years to reinvent the wheel (yes, MorphOS was already there and fully working before they even start working on OS4, and yes it may not have the name, it's still "AmigaOS" as well, it isn't based on AOS source code, it has differences, but it doesn't change the fact that it feels, works, and is binary & source compatible with AOS, just like OS4. The normal user probably won't notice any difference), now someone is trying to do what bPlan just did in the past 5 years: create a G3/G4 PPC motherboard.

Draw your own conclusions. But I think it is just STUPID (and I'm an not targetting any specific (ie: red or blue) "camp": I guess both camps made the situation become what it is now... there's no "good" or "bad" camp). I'm just sick of all this.

The PC may be boring. But between a boring world and a stupid one, I made my choice.

GoodBye !

Leo.

Last edited by Leo on 21-Jan-2006 at 11:36 AM.
Last edited by Leo on 21-Jan-2006 at 11:36 AM.
Last edited by Leo on 21-Jan-2006 at 11:34 AM.
Last edited by Leo on 21-Jan-2006 at 11:27 AM.

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@samface

Quote:

I haven't read it nor have you.

Actually, there was an earlier draft of the licence leaked and you'll find that many people have read it.

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@samface

Quote:

What specific hardware device are you saying that Hyperion would actually want to support but is prevented by Amiga Inc.?

I've already mentioned two, but apparently you weren't listening, so there's no point to argue.

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@Leo

Leo, please, don't go there. It's OT and will cause a flamewar, ruining this thread.

Last edited by AMiGR on 21-Jan-2006 at 12:07 PM.

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@samface

As always, you assume that the majority thinks along your lines. Don Quixote was a madman, fighting alone against logic. Most people in here are not happy about the current situation, or about Amiga Inc.

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@AMiGR

Quote:

I've already mentioned two, but apparently you weren't listening, so there's no point to argue.

Well, it wasn't clear enough if what you were saying is that those alternatives are what Hyperion would actually want to support but is prevented by Amiga Inc. You only said that it would/could be a possibility if the AmigaOS4 licensing terms was re-negotiated to give Hyperion the privilidge to decide which hardware to support on their own. In any case, I believe you are wrong. I believe Hyperion are already supporting the hardware alternatives they want to support. If they would have wanted to support more alternatives, I believe they have as much influence as needed to make it happen. Again, why would Hyperion otherwise be inviting hardware suppliers to turn directly to them if they are interested in having AmigaOS4 support for their hardware?

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@AMiGR

Quote:

As always, you assume that the majority thinks along your lines.

When and where did I speak for anyone's behalf other than my own?

Quote:

Don Quixote was a madman, fighting alone against logic.

Even Don Quixote (is that the appropriate spelling?) had a companion. Two wrongs doesn't make one right.

Quote:

Most people in here are not happy about the current situation, or about Amiga Inc.

Now YOU are the one speaking on other people's behalf.

Last edited by samface on 21-Jan-2006 at 12:43 PM.

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@Leo

Quote:

I don't know why OS4 hasn't been ported to the Pegasos2

Genesi? Anyway i don't want to buy nothing related to Genesi, they used FUD as their weapons, the act like 10yoc hildern on forums times ago, they steal money from devs, air france.

And stop this nosense "MOS is older, was working etc...".... "fully working" is personal i suppose since yeasr ago mos was quite bugged and incomplete, and it is now.

I don't have nothing against MOS and MOS devs, but i hate reading post from MOS evengelist, who don't know nothing.

As already pointed out, its OT here, so make your mos war on another forum. And yes i think Amiga Inc sucks aswell, they did too many errors in the past months.

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ikir

@samface

Quote:

Now YOU are the one speaking on other people's behalf.

As you might have noticed from my post count and AmigaWorld IRC line-count, I'm quite active here, much more so than yourself. We've had many many MANY, endless conversations on this matter and unsurprisingly, most ended up being unanimous. Hardly anyone is happy about Amiga Inc.'s current doings (or rather the lack of any doings, apart from further devaluating the name by selling casino games... Their site's blocked on corporate network filter configurations!). What Amiga Inc. needs at the moment, is rectification of their doings, not support. Maybe without support they'll
realise this...

(About Don Quixote, I think that there are many spellings but don't quote me on this).

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I'm no "MOS evengelist". I just pointed it to show there was already a PPC AmigaOS even before they started wasting their 5 years. And of course, it had (and has) bugs.
And with "fully" I meant "fully PPC": it did not need 68k libs/custom chips,...

Look: I don't care who was the first,... If OS4 had been developed before MorphOS, I'd say the same about MOS: that's such a waste of time, resources,...

Leo.

Last edited by Leo on 21-Jan-2006 at 01:41 PM.

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