@number6

For some reason I thought Computer City was the Ron Van Herk's Amiga link... must have just seen it mentioned so many times.
CYMTV has acquired the STB middleware that was developed by AHT

Must go out for the eve... GF will become violent if I'm late again.

Last edited by Boot_WB on 22-Aug-2014 at 07:40 PM.

_________________
Troll - n., A disenfranchised former potential customer who remains interested enough to stay informed and express critical opinions.
opp., the vast majority who voted silently with their feet.

Quote:

klx300r wrote: I'm sure our current AmigaOS flavours would make them quite happy ESPECIALLY as they don't have all the spam and viruses etc.

Please, don't report such false statements. Amiga had viruses, don't you remember?

And the Amiga o.s. has itself ZERO security.

@cdimauro

Quote:

Please, don't report such false statements. Amiga had viruses, don't you remember? And the Amiga o.s. has itself ZERO security.

Yeah I remember the Lamer Exterminator! Fun and innocent times.

(Just read http://www.teyko.com/View.aspx?id=280&name=Lamer+Exterminator%2c+The - bought back memories!)

It has all the security of something no one is interested in anymore. Security takes many forms. It's not "active" security, but you can be pretty sure that no one's going to crack your system if there's only a few hundred of the type around...

_________________
Blog

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: Quote: klx300r wrote: I'm sure our current AmigaOS flavours would make them quite happy ESPECIALLY as they don't have all the spam and viruses etc. Please, don't report such false statements. Amiga had viruses, don't you remember? And the Amiga o.s. has itself ZERO security.

What false statement? I didn't see they had NO viruses BUT not even close to the crap that Windows system have. I don't know how many hard drives I've reconfigured running XP because bloatware and viruses have slowed the systems down to a crawl and perhaps I've been the only lucky one but I never ever had these issues with AmigaOS.

_________________
____________________________
c64-2sids, A1000, A1200T-060@50(finally working!),A4000-CSMKIII
! My Master Miggies- Amiga 1000 & AmigaOne X1000 !
mancave-ramblings
X1000 I BELIEVE

I hear ya. My computer is way more secure than that clap trap. It's quite literally impossible for my programs to get infected, because I have to press BOTH rec and play for anything to get write access.

Quote:

Aslak3 wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Please, don't report such false statements. Amiga had viruses, don't you remember? And the Amiga o.s. has itself ZERO security. Yeah I remember the Lamer Exterminator! Fun and innocent times. (Just read http://www.teyko.com/View.aspx?id=280&name=Lamer+Exterminator%2c+The - bought back memories!)

Impressive! Have you did it?
Quote:

It has all the security of something no one is interested in anymore. Security takes many forms. It's not "active" security, but you can be pretty sure that no one's going to crack your system if there's only a few hundred of the type around...

Absolutely. That's why I was talking about the Amiga o.s. structure.

Nobody nowadays has interest on writing virus for Amiga (you can keep the existing ones, if you like ). But in principle the Amiga o.s. has a LOT of potential in making the life easier to some stupid guy that wants to do it.

Quote:

klx300r wrote: Quote: cdimauro wrote: Please, don't report such false statements. Amiga had viruses, don't you remember? And the Amiga o.s. has itself ZERO security. What false statement? I didn't see they had NO viruses BUT not even close to the crap that Windows system have. I don't know how many hard drives I've reconfigured running XP because bloatware and viruses have slowed the systems down to a crawl and perhaps I've been the only lucky one but I never ever had these issues with AmigaOS.

See above for viruses and security.

But you "forgot" another important thing about the usability of a system: XP doesn't crash SOOOOOO easily like an Amiga o.s./-like. And the same applies to the running applications.

You can live with an Amiga o.s./-like system surfing the web, because the risk of losing something is much reduced. But doing some other, more productive, stuff is a completely different thing. That's why an Amiga o.s./-like is substantially an hobby o.s.: you like to play with it, like you do with a toy.

After all, Amiga o.s. was designed to be fast... and it was quickly written, having few time to do it (in fact it was also completed after the Amiga production). Unfortunately due to this, it's insecure and fragile; and it has hacks or bad decisions. Most of that continue to live in the o.ses. that succeeded to or took (heavy) inspiration from it.

@klx300r

Quote:

klx300r wrote: @ Dandy, Mnau & Olaf25 yes of course software is important but considering more than 85% of my friends and family only use their computers for email, youtube, very light word processing and the occasional spreadsheet and game ... I'm sure our current AmigaOS flavours would make them quite happy ...

But that doesn't help me.
I'm in a sort of dilemma - on the one hand side there is the classic Amiga branch.
I have loads of software for it and one of the fastest C= Amigas ever: the Amiga4000 with CyberstormPPC board.
But this isn't sufficient. For todays needs the hardware is much too slow and doesn't have enough memory, although it has PCI bus and USB 2.0 highspeed and 100 mBit NIC.

On the other hand there is the NextGen Amiga branch with the powerful, but expensive AmigaOne X1000 and AmigaOS 4.x - but near to no native, productive/professional software.

Quote:

klx300r wrote: Now the main problem FOR ME when trying to get one of these people I speak of to try new Amiga offerings is "sounds interesting I might try it one day when I have time but for now my regular PC etc does what I need it to do".

See what I mean? I also have to use a PC to get done what I need to get done in a reasonable amount of time with Pro software...

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

Concentrate on making good cars instead because Ford Germany sucks bigtime. The cars lasts for maybe 5 years if you're lucky without too many issues but usually they brake all the time. A crap car with pretty much everything in that company being realy bad. I do understand why now.

Last edited by hotrod on 25-Aug-2014 at 03:25 PM.

@hotrod

Fix Or Repair Daily.

Found On Roadside Dead.

@cdimauro

Have you ever tried to hack an Amiga from the net ?
Bet you haven't.

While running OS 3.9 + Genesis stack ( all ports closed apart from the ones I was
using ), No Mac or PC tools could get in.

I read in a thread somewhere that the only risk was the SSL com with a server.


Wol..

_________________
It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.~Albert Einstein

Quote:

Wol wrote: Have you ever tried to hack an Amiga from the net ? Bet you haven't. While running OS 3.9 + Genesis stack ( all ports closed apart from the ones I was using ), No Mac or PC tools could get in. I read in a thread somewhere that the only risk was the SSL com with a server.

Assuming someone was running a vulnerable web browser (likely given the age of most of them on AmigaOS), it would be easy for someone to write a webpage which exploited that browser bug to run whatever code they wanted in the browser. Same is true for any OS, but at least the mainstream OSes are regularly updated.

It is not just about closed ports. All network connections, including outgoing ones, are potentially exploitable.

When talking about AmigaOS security, you should also consider the fact that all processes run in the same memory space. This would make it possible for a bug in one program to make it possible for an attacker to learn about all the activity on the system (your email passwords in your email client, say). Even the core of the OS (kernel, whatever) could be modified (trojaned, say) through a browser exploit, something unlikely on all other systems. This is something that other mainstream OSes do not suffer from.

In summary, an "Amiga" system is only secure so long as no one cares about it. A bit like driving around in a 20 year old car. Noone is likely to steal it because it isn't worth much, even though it is (in fact) much easier to steal then modern cars.

Last edited by Aslak3 on 25-Aug-2014 at 08:53 PM.

_________________
Blog

Quote:

Impressive! Have you did it?

I caught the Lamer Exterminator... Hmm, I think about 1990/91? I'd had the Amiga500 maybe a year, and knew nothing of viruses. I think the Lamer went out on a magazine disk, and not really knowing very much at all even about write protecting the floppies, we caught it. It took out some of our favourite games: Hard Drivin', Their Finest Hour... and some others. Eventually we eradicated it from our disk collection, but not until it had done a lot of damage. It was an interesting lesson.

Yeap, good times. Early 90s were the Amiga's peak, for sure!!!

_________________
Blog

@Aslak3

Had that virus as well. We hadn't had the Amiga that long and one of the disks that was supplied with it by the company we bought it from contained it. Didn't discover it until it had destroyed at least one of the commercial game disks we had.

Viruses were a new thing to me at the time having moved onto the Amiga from the C64 - which even for all of it's popularity never suffered with that.

_________________
Test sig (new)

Quote:

It's quite literally impossible for my programs to get infected, because I have to press BOTH rec and play for anything to get write access.

Hiiiilarious. And even that's nearly fool proof if you broke the tab.

Plaz

@Aslak3

Quote:

Aslak3 wrote: Quote: Impressive! Have you did it? I caught the Lamer Exterminator... Hmm, I think about 1990/91? I'd had the Amiga500 maybe a year, and knew nothing of viruses. I think the Lamer went out on a magazine disk, and not really knowing very much at all even about write protecting the floppies, we caught it. It took out some of our favourite games: Hard Drivin', Their Finest Hour... and some others. Eventually we eradicated it from our disk collection, but not until it had done a lot of damage. It was an interesting lesson. Yeap, good times. Early 90s were the Amiga's peak, for sure!!!

Sorry, I was thinking about that you're the guy which have analized the Lamer Exterminator and written the web page that you provided before.

P.S. I agree with you for the other comments.

"They're both just PCs with PPCs." This is total nonsense and could be regarded as an insult to our brave Amiga developers.
AmigaOne has AmigaOS which makes all the difference and gives the platform the attraction we all know. The OS is extremely
user-friendly, small and efficient, and if you want to tamper with it there is no limit. (One of my favorite features is the ability
to program the function keys.) The contrast to WIN-PC is really huge. Talking about MS-WIN there is many strange and irritating
features in it. One of them is this: With every installation of a new program the Windows folder in C: will grow and its size is
measured in GIGABYTES from the very beginning. (In my laptop PC it is now 27,4GB. Workbench in my AmigaOne 500 takes
393MB!) This is a sign of bad OS design in my opinion. (Or could evoke some conspiracy theories too.) And what about the
hard drive being prone to nasty fragmentation which forces the user to defragment the drive every now and then. (There is
a tool for that in windows as we know.) This too is a sign of inferiority compared to AmigaOS, in my opinion (again). And so on...
All in all, Amiga is needed just because it's different. Really, "Amiga feeling" is no myth. And in a way it feels good being outside
of the mainstream...and Amiga being nowadays european, that's really nice...

Quote:

acmn wrote: "They're both just PCs with PPCs." This is total nonsense

It's the reality. But you can prove it's wrong, if you want.
Quote:

and could be regarded as an insult to our brave Amiga developers.

Insult? Why? Can you better explain, please?
Quote:

AmigaOne has AmigaOS which makes all the difference and gives the platform the attraction we all know.

You completely missed the point here. Let's recap:
PCs -> hardware
PPCs -> hardware
AmigaOne -> hardware
AmigaOS -> software

AmigaOnes ARE PCs using PowerPCs instead of a more common x86 or x64 CPU. And, again, we are talking about hardware here, and not software.

AmigaOS is just software, and it can run on any enabled hardware platform. In fact, it even runs on a PC thanks to WinUAE.

Last but not least, AmigaOnes also run Linux, which is A BIT different from AmigaOS...
Quote:

The OS is extremely user-friendly, small and efficient, and if you want to tamper with it there is no limit.

I don't disagree with you. You can do whatever you want because the Amiga o.s. is totally open: all its data structures are public and normal applications can change them. But not only limited to this, its APIs allow to mess-up with the o.s. itself: think about an application that can free a signal allocated by the o.s. using an API provided by the same o.s..

You have so much freedom because of one thing: the Amiga o.s. was broken by design...
Quote:

(One of my favorite features is the ability to program the function keys.)

http://www.autohotkey.com/
Quote:

The contrast to WIN-PC is really huge. Talking about MS-WIN there is many strange and irritating features in it. One of them is this: With every installation of a new program the Windows folder in C: will grow and its size is measured in GIGABYTES from the very beginning. (In my laptop PC it is now 27,4GB. Workbench in my AmigaOne 500 takes 393MB!) This is a sign of bad OS design in my opinion. (Or could evoke some conspiracy theories too.)

Wake-up: you can buy a 3TB hard disk nowadays for around $100, and you're complaining for some tens GB used...
Quote:

And what about the hard drive being prone to nasty fragmentation which forces the user to defragment the drive every now and then. (There is a tool for that in windows as we know.)

You have fragmentation on any filesystem. Even the ones used by any Amiga/-like o.s..
Quote:

This too is a sign of inferiority compared to AmigaOS, in my opinion (again).

Maybe you forgot the "good old" OFS, which used part of sector data to put metadata in it. And you also forgot the incredible slowness on displaying the directory entries due to the lack of a proper directory caching. Was it a sign of inferiority for you?
Quote:

And so on...

You can continue if you like. I really like to know what funny thing you'll report or invent.
Quote:

All in all, Amiga is needed just because it's different.

The homosexual of the operating systems!
Quote:

Really, "Amiga feeling" is no myth. And in a way it feels good being outside of the mainstream...

He's feeling like a race in extinction...
Quote:

and Amiga being nowadays european, that's really nice...

Is Amiga Inc. an European company? Really? When Bill has moved with his company to the old continent?

@cdimauro

Quote:

Quote: The OS is extremely user-friendly, small and efficient, and if you want to tamper with it there is no limit. I don't disagree with you. You can do whatever you want because the Amiga o.s. is totally open: all its data structures are public and normal applications can change them. But not only limited to this, its APIs allow to mess-up with the o.s. itself: think about an application that can free a signal allocated by the o.s. using an API provided by the same o.s.. You have so much freedom because of one thing: the Amiga o.s. was broken by design...

I'd take issue with this last statement. It did only what it was intended to do, nothing more. Such things as memory protection and priv separation were/are not possible on a 256K 68000 system. It was what it was.

Now, to run a system under these SAME limitations, when gigabytes and gigabytes and (say) a thousand times the CPU performance is available.... that's insane.

Quote:

Quote: And what about the hard drive being prone to nasty fragmentation which forces the user to defragment the drive every now and then. (There is a tool for that in windows as we know.) You have fragmentation on any filesystem. Even the ones used by any Amiga/-like o.s..

ext2,3,4 and probably other modern filesystems are more or less immune to this problem. OSF/FFS was of course dreadful for this.

Quote:

Quote: This too is a sign of inferiority compared to AmigaOS, in my opinion (again). Maybe you forgot the "good old" OFS, which used part of sector data to put metadata in it. And you also forgot the incredible slowness on displaying the directory entries due to the lack of a proper directory caching. Was it a sign of inferiority for you?

Yeah, the disk cache in Linux the first time I used was a real eye opener. :) "You mean I don't have to wait all the time? That spare memory is actually doing something useful? Wow!"

Quote:

Quote: And so on... You can continue if you like. I really like to know what funny thing you'll report or invent.

No need to stoke the fire that much....

Quote:

Quote: All in all, Amiga is needed just because it's different. The homosexual of the operating systems!

Careful. Some people, not me, but others, will take offence at this. You diminish your own arguments with such comments.

The rest I mostly agree with, but you won't ever diminish the fanboys stuck in the 90s, so I really wouldn't have bothered....

You are "most correct" on the PPC/PC thing. You could almost desolder that PPC and replace it with a x86, if the pinouts were the same. :)

_________________
Blog

@cdimauro

Quote:

You can do whatever you want because the Amiga o.s. is totally open: all its data structures are public and normal applications can change them

You where discouraged to poke and peek this by commodore, they remended you to use the propper set and get functions in Exec and DOS.

Quote:

You have so much freedom because of one thing: the Amiga o.s. was broken by design..

The only thing broken by design was brains of the developers who did not follow the guidelines.

http://archive.org/stream/International_Amiga_Developers_Conference_Notes_1993_Commodore/International_Amiga_Developers_Conference_Notes_1993_Commodore_djvu.txt

Sure they did have many excuses not to, any how AmigaOS is more backwords compatible then most operating system out there.

Try running Windows3.1 applications on Windows8
Try running MacOS6 programs on MacOSX

AmigaOS design was good for its time, now updating it to a modern OS, is complicated task, with the few resources thats available.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Aug-2014 at 12:11 AM.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: Try running Windows3.1 applications on Windows8

Actually, you probably can unless it's a win16 program and you're running 64 bit windows (and that's a cpu limitation). Microsoft is obsessed with backwards compatibility, in fact most of the bloat in windows can be blamed on that. To illustrate how far they take it, see this video - it shows windows 1.0 being upgraded, one version at a time, to 8.1. And all the programs still work.

Quote:

AmigaOS design was good for its time, now updating it to a modern OS, is complicated task, with the few resources thats available.

Engineering is always an exercise in tradeoffs. Back in 1982 when Carl and the rest of the Amiga team were working on the hardware and software, they had a good design that met their requirements, and was easily the best available for a home computer (there were much better designs at the time, but you had to go to IBM or a university lab to see them). Of course amigaos is outdated today - just about every single requirement has changed in the 20 years since cbm went under. A lot of things that are expected today were either unusual or just plain didn't exist when amigaos was being architected, eg if the original 68k had had an MMU I'm sure that the amiga team would have used it to protect OS data structures, rather than asking people not to overwrite them (and being ignored). A lot of the filesystem limitations were because they were designed with floppies in mind - hard disks didn't become commonplace in home computers until the 90s.

Last edited by CodeSmith on 27-Aug-2014 at 06:36 AM.
Last edited by CodeSmith on 27-Aug-2014 at 06:33 AM.