@nzv58l

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nzv58l wrote: @prmetime I thought I heard that the Powervixen would be able to work without a A1200 even though it could also be connected to one. I think the Apple is not a good solution or even the X86. The reason why is that we should not be following other platforms,

We are not a platform, we're just an OS.

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we should be doing our own thing. If we do not we will never be any better than the other platforms.

We never WILL be better than other platforms, especially when they all have better hardware. The best we can hope for is equivalent hardware, and shoot for a better OS.

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We would still be behind in the X86 world, because we would not have the privilage of getting information and test machines that are current technology.

If having the same hardware, isn't good enough, how is using lesser hardware providing any benefit?

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By the time the OS would be ready everyone would be complaining that it wasn't ready for the best CPU out there. So it would be the same as it is now.

The same as it is now, but on slower hardware. How is that better?

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Let's just wait for the hardware that is designed for OS4. I do not want to run on some other platforms hardware. I am not that hard up for hardware, that I need someone elses hand me downs.

It's just hardware. Why is everyone granting it a human personality and attributing emotions to it? Hand me downs? We're talking about new from the store hardware. Macs, motherboards, whatever.

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The only way that would happen is if there were no one interested in making hardware. That is currently not the case at all.

What about hand me down keyboards? I don't think AmigaOS should be used with hand me down keyboards and monitors, or computer tables.

We arn't a platform anymore. if we were, Hyperion would be a hardware manufacturer.

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@ironfist

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The VIA chips in my EPIAs and Pegasoses are running just fine.. No problems at all.

I've been using VIA chipsets since the old VP2 (showing my age here...) and I've found one thing to be true about almost all of them - the basic chipsets are very good, but VIA often pushes the envelope a bit too hard and it takes a skilled motherboard designer to make them work correctly.

Take the (in)famous 686B for example. The number of really bad boards built around that chip is legendary (not least the A1s), but there are several really impressive products that use it. Boards like the Soltek SL-75KAV and the Epox 8KTA3, which were the fastest things around in their day and have proved to be stable, reliable and long-lived designs.

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@T_Bone

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Yes, it would, but nobody really cares about the market that's here now. The AmigaOne failed, and will probably only be replaced by small hobby projects.

True, even though I read somewhere that Yellowtab has 100,000 copies of Zeta. Not sure if it is true, but definitely a case to port OS 4 to a ready-made hardware solution.

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I suspect Hyperion could take it or leave it as well. They may think it would be nice to have a desktop AmigaOS machine available, but if they thought there was anything in it for them, I think we'd actually see them doing something to make it happen as part of their *own* business plan (like making it available on a Mac mini), rather than waiting for third parties to approach them with options.

I think you are on the money there. I have a sneaking feeling that those lucky few that still have working A1 boards will end up with Pre-rel 4 for free and that's it. At some point you would think Hyperion might cut their losses and shelve OS 4 to work on more lucrative projects. I hope someone comes up with a hardware solution in the meantime though! Geez, there is a guy on the other amiga forum that has a running prototype of a A500 replacement.

Anybody with hard coding knowledge here? How difficult would it be to port OS4 to a ready made PPC machine, like a Mac Mini or even an older iMac G3 or desktop G3? I have a Blue and White G3 that would I would love to see OS 4 running on!

@T_Bone

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We never WILL be better than other platforms, especially when they all have better hardware. The best we can hope for is equivalent hardware, and shoot for a better OS.

Actually I do not - or do not want to - believe this. I do not think there won't be live after the pc architecure. Hope cell will be here soon, and I hope it will shift some paradigm here. While the Amiga copros were nice at that time, guess what 8 (or 7 for that matter) will do, moving 200GB/s thru your machine... should be enough for real time effects on full HD TV resolution :)

I still don't understand why all x86 or mainstream believers don't simply switch to what ever is available there - instead of whinig here. What makes you think that an AmigaOS on that platform will make such a difference. Actually I don't. Go with Zeta. Fast, modern, nice programming environment. Or I guess even MacOS X. Nice system (might give it a go), some others (Sky OS), even QNX Momentics is free. Don't want mention Linux. I for myself want to have a geek machine, not just a PC running AmigaOS.While I agree the A1 (or even the peg) is still a PC (with a big endian CPU), I hope sometimes there will be something more...

BTW: Did I mention I preferto code a big endian CPU. It simply feels so much more natural to me.

And to be on topic again, I hope that any of the promised products will see the light of day anytime soon. Well, and who knows, maybe we'll get AGP4 and a fast G4, too (at least for now).

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@Jorge

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I still don't understand why all x86 or mainstream believers don't simply switch to what ever is available there - instead of whinig here.

Perhaps because we really, really like AmigaOS and would like to see it ported to a viable hardware platform so we can use it and feel good about encouraging others to give it a try.

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@Jorge

Btw we can forget about AGP all together.
Most of the modern chips have aldready started supporting PCI-e and
that's the way for Amiga aswell IMHO.
There's no support chip for G3/G4 that support AGP anymore and no good
ones that ever did..

Last edited by Samwel on 03-Feb-2006 at 10:59 AM.

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@prmetime

Most of the Radeon chipsets should be supported (except the very newest PCI-e stuff). For a PCI graphics card, the best you will probably get for the Amy05 is a Radeon 9200 series, as nothing any higher than that exists in PCI format.

You can, of course, use an older Voodoo3 PCI card (or similiar) if you can find one around somewhere.

@DrBombcrater

hmm..

Does that mean Asus are a Shyte MoBo comapny then ?

I bought the Asus CUV4X as an upgrade path from my Tyan Tsunami PII

Asus sported the Via Apollo Pro chipset (686b). What a bag of sh it that turned out to be. Constant audio corruption, which was not very clever in a semi pro NLE environment.

I ended up asking Electronic Design what they recommended I do to cure it...

They said..

"Dump Via" followed by their choice of MoBo.

An Asus CuBX (intel chipset).

Problem solved. Never a glitch and still runs sweet to this day, Although now semi retired !!

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@DrBombcrater

Hm, I don't know. I don't want a PC replacement. Well, I use my AmigaOne at home for lmost everything (incl. typing this etc) Well, what's missing is maybe a web browser with CSS, but OK, this will come eventually. And, e.g. regarding a cell based machine, this will be faster then anything we ever had.

But what I like most, and maybe that's just me, but I'd like to play around and code with that machine. That's it. If I'd like to have mainstream office machine to type my letters and maybe browse the web solely, I'd rather go with Windows or MacOS. Well, video might look great on either of those ATM, but guess what - especially - a cell base machine can do to video streams an NLE software. I simply think, going PC or x86 locks us to the big vendors without any chance to do anything the Amiga is (was) all about. And that a big player (Sony) tries to go a different route is a lucky move we should appreciate. This could really make a difference. I don't think AmigaOS will stand a chance on a std x86 mainstream HW.

But - OK - we started it again. Don't want to go there any further. We'll see what comes. And what ever it is, people wanting AmigaOS will take it, I bet.

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@The_Editor

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Does that mean Asus are a Shyte MoBo comapny then ?

Yes. I won't touch their stuff with a bargepole anymore. Every single model of Asus board I've ever used (which is a lot - from the old A7V133 through to the K8N) has had serious issues.

Their Intel-chipset boards are fairly good, I hear, but you can't mount an AMD processor on those so I don't use em

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@DrBombcrater


Fair comment.

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@lavo

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Anybody with hard coding knowledge here? How difficult would it be to port OS4 to a ready made PPC machine, like a Mac Mini or even an older iMac G3 or desktop G3? I have a Blue and White G3 that would I would love to see OS 4 running on!

OS4 is not going to be ported to x86 or Apple hardware. At least not any time soon.

Coder

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@T_Bone

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If having the same hardware, isn't good enough, how is using lesser hardware providing any benefit?

That is just it, we will not be able to have the same hardware. We would always be one step behind. By the time the OS adjusted to the latest and greatest x86 hardware there would be something better already out. In addition, you would not find a board that would have a long enough shelf life to be sustained long enough for an OS to be ported to it.

Another point I did not bring up is identity. If we run on x86 then how would we know that that particular machine was actually running Amiga OS on it? Also, why would a software company write anything for the Amiga if you can run Windows on the same machine? My guess is that will be Apples big blunder

Anyway, I don't think it is the performance that the x86 chearleaders want. What they really want is to spend $50 bucks for a disk that they can stick in any old PC. In other words just being plain cheap! Unfortunatly that would never happen due to the drivers issues.

I am of the view that we are a platform. A1 + OS4 = Amiga.

I try to remain more optomistic about the Amiga's future. I believe the road to it's success is not paved with Microsoft droppings. It is paved with inovation. So MS with their teams of coders and venders sending them all the latest information would have a laugh at our small OS team, watching them try to reverse engineer the stuff that MS got full documentation for with only a couple of guys doing the work.

I don't want to contribut anything to a CPU that meant for running Windows. That is just telling all the software houses to write more for Windows. Not Amiga.

Instead of whining about which CPU we are using we should be busy writing applications for the OS as it stands and be ready for the proper hardware to run Amiga OS.

Sorry for my tone, and I understand that not everyone thinks the way I do. I just do not like supporting Intell or Microsoft, because they are both the same to me. I want to support Amiga and the PowerPC.

Go Powervixen, Go Amy05 and start heading for Cell!

Last edited by nzv58l on 03-Feb-2006 at 09:04 PM.

@nzv58l

Quote:

Another point I did not bring up is identity. If we run on x86 then how would we know that that particular machine was actually running Amiga OS on it? Also, why would a software company write anything for the Amiga if you can run Windows on the same machine? My guess is that will be Apples big blunder

So, what value would it had buying a expensive machine just to run AmigaOS? I would assume most already have an x86, and having a machine that can both run AmigaOS and Windows would suit him better then having two different machines. Even if one had to ditch the motherboard so he could run Amiga OS, he would have guaranteed that both Linux and Windows would still work...

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@pixie

If I wanted to run Windows I would buy an Athalon. I bought an A1 to run Amiga OS. PC's are sooooo boring!

Also, I do not think the Amiga needs to be expensive, but we will have to see if someone can do much better than Eyetech did. I think they can.

@Jorge

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Jorge wrote: @T_Bone Quote: We never WILL be better than other platforms, especially when they all have better hardware. The best we can hope for is equivalent hardware, and shoot for a better OS. Actually I do not - or do not want to - believe this. I do not think there won't be live after the pc architecure.

I wasn't specifically talking about the PC architecture, I'm talking about ALL available architectures existing on commodity hardware. No matter what custom solution you come up with, you're at a huge disadvantage and perpetually behind everyone else. All else being the same, at least if you use the hardware already commonly available, you start off at an equal footing, at a competitive price, rather than being slower, costing more, and needing large sums of R&D just to end up behind everyone you could be equal to... for FREE.

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Hope cell will be here soon, and I hope it will shift some paradigm here. While the Amiga copros were nice at that time, guess what 8 (or 7 for that matter) will do, moving 200GB/s thru your machine... should be enough for real time effects on full HD TV resolution :)

Cell doesn't change anything here, even if/when Cell is relevant, we'd STILL be better off using a commodity Cell motherboard, rather than spending R&D designing something ourselves for a run of (x)k boards.

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I still don't understand why all x86 or mainstream believers don't simply switch to what ever is available there

For the same reason everyone didn't stop following AmigaOS when the 68k market died. The 68k, the PPC, x86 and the AmigaOne are the bathwater. AmigaOS is the BABY. AmigaOS isn't even available, you think everyone should switch then, and you really don't understand why people haven't?

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What makes you think that an AmigaOS on that platform will make such a difference. Actually I don't.

Because the difference we are talking about here, is hardware. Of course there's a difference. If AmigaOS ran on something available, it would obviously be better than running on something NOT available. I think that's a given. If the hardware is cheaper and faster, AmigaOS inherits those attributes too.

If faster, cheaper and available hardware doesn't make a difference to you, then why isn't 68k good enough for you any more?

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Go with Zeta. Fast, modern, nice programming environment. Or I guess even MacOS X. Nice system (might give it a go), some others (Sky OS), even QNX Momentics is free. Don't want mention Linux. I for myself want to have a geek machine, not just a PC running AmigaOS.While I agree the A1 (or even the peg) is still a PC (with a big endian CPU), I hope sometimes there will be something more...

That's Genesi's business plan, not Hyperion's. Hyperion market an Operating System. Genesi gave one they don't really care about, away free, to market special hardware. Genesi don't really care about the OS, but just that hardware they are marketing. If the OS they offer doesn't sell it, they'll offer something else. I couldn't care less about their hardware, I choose a machine for the purpose I have for it, and that's to run the OS I plan to run. If we were only here because of the hardware, AmigaOS wouldn't be relevant.

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BTW: Did I mention I preferto code a big endian CPU. It simply feels so much more natural to me.

Did I mention there's comodity hardware out there that's big endian?

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And to be on topic again, I hope that any of the promised products will see the light of day anytime soon. Well, and who knows, maybe we'll get AGP4 and a fast G4, too (at least for now).

What promised products? Hyperion mentioned they were "in negotiation" with the people involved with these products, I don't remember anything being promised.

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@nzv58l

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nzv58l wrote: @pixie If I wanted to run Windows I would buy an Athalon.

That's usually how it goes, you want to run a certain OS so you buy hardware that will do that. That's why all these "will compete with Windows" statements I keep hearing are funny.

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I bought an A1 to run Amiga OS. PC's are sooooo boring!

The A1's just as boring IMO, but then there's nothing intrinsically exciting about any motherboard, well, I did see a cool one with a *vacuum tube amp* on the onboard audio, but other than that...

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Also, I do not think the Amiga needs to be expensive, but we will have to see if someone can do much better than Eyetech did. I think they can.

That's the scary part. Eyetech had the best chance to succeed being first to market, on top of that, they got to use a preexisting design, on top of that, they were a chipset company's main customer, on top of that, they were an AmigaOne partner that had a say in what competition they would allow in the OS4 desktop space, on top of that, OS4 was planned specifically for their board, and didn't need a port made to it to make it work.

Now all these benefits have been removed, and it will be harder to support a custom hardware market. I don't even know if it's possible at all to try and resurrect a whole platform instead of just an OS at this point. Maybe if there were more people waiting to buy.

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@DrBombcrater

Quote:

DrBombcrater wrote: @The_Editor Quote: Does that mean Asus are a Shyte MoBo comapny then ? Yes. I won't touch their stuff with a bargepole anymore. Every single model of Asus board I've ever used (which is a lot - from the old A7V133 through to the K8N) has had serious issues.

It's funny isn't it? They used to be THE motherboard you'd buy for quality.

...untill I had a batch of Asus SP97v's with battery discharge problems similar to some A1's. They never bothered to fix them, they would just come out with a new BIOS "fix" that would keep people satisfied untill their warranty ran out and they noticed their batteries were still only lasting 4-5 months.

It's been MSI ever since.

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@T_Bone

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If faster, cheaper and available hardware doesn't make a difference to you, then why isn't 68k good enough for you any more?

That's not the question. If I would be interessted in speed alone, what makes you think the AmigaOS is so much better ? It isn't face it. It's the package as such.

While I might agree, AmigaOS might even run grate on todays x86 HW, I do not see the long term plan with this. It might maybe give some people something to play with for the moment, but what does it give us in the long run ?

I think you (well, not you specifically, I guess a lot of people) underestimate e.g. a cell architecture. Simple because everybody swtiched to a pc centric point of view. See, even the x86 HW tries to utilize some of the core design issues of the cell, that is, shorten the datapath between the cpu core and it's peripherals. A x86 (or PC) due to it's universal target market, will never be 100% specialized in that field - it's main market is the office, even if the gamer segment is stedily growing. But, OTHO, an little small OS like the Amiga OS can be adopted for these sepcial purposes, and I believe it can target different markets and also does not need to cary on all this legacy the PC is forced to do (will change ... but it will always be there with pcs and soon with Macs, too).

And I also do not think that such a machine must be expensive. Due to the higher integration, the use in a game console and in other apliances (well, DVD, VCR TVs) it will be relatively cheap. And, I believe it will be ahead (!) of anything the PC will have at this time. It has 8 (!) copros with the performance of current top level P4s or Athlons. Sure, you have to program them properly, but the only bottleneck in todays PCs is mem thruput. This issue is perfectly addressed with the CELL.

Well, no matter what my opinion is, I don't know if Cell will be available for AmigaOS at all. But I think it will be the only choice.

I also don't know, what would count to a functioning Amiga market eventually. No matter what architecture. It's not just customer requests, but maybe a whole industry which would depend on it. Would x86 support this more than e.g. a customized board ? Does it count how many people alone use the OS ? Maybe it does. For the SW vendors maybe, but sales ? Custom board builders (e.g. embedded home consumer products) ? Dedicated dealers ? What are they gona sell if its a PC ? What if only a limited selected range of components work ? Who selects them, who supports the customers ? Is it enough if, e.g. the OS vendor makes some bucks ? I don't know. I could have all this with a PC today. Why would AmigaOS make a difference ?

Well, after all, I don't care, as long something becomes available. In the long run, we (the geeks visiting these sites) are not enough, we have to expand the market anyway.

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@Jorge

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Custom board builders (e.g. embedded home consumer products) ? Dedicated dealers ? What are they gona sell if its a PC ?

A PC... there's lots of dealers and they seem to be pretty well indeed. Most of the time, even on todays Amiga dealers they are forced to also sell PC hardware, so what's the fuss?

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What if only a limited selected range of components work ?

You have the very same problem with PPC...

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Why would AmigaOS make a difference ?

I just don't know, has AmigaOS became the CPU now? After all isn't it... a package? I just don't hope the biggest virtue of AmigaOS to be the CPU, either it being the PPC or x86, it's all a CPU, look at Apple, they've done the shift and keep doing what they done best, marketing... An Apple is an Apple, despite having had up till now 3 different lines of processors

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