@ssolie

Quote:

ssolie wrote: @falemagn Quote: Perhaps your adversion for me makes you blind?

Come on admit it, you love trolling stevie

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@falemagn

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In the 2nd post, he claimed he said something which he didn't say. That was the lie.

Bullocks. What I claimed to have said was what I said, nothing else. Wether it can be interpreted in other ways in addition to the interpretation of the original statement because I didn't use the *exact* same wording is another story. For as long as it still complies with and does not contradict any possible interpretation of my original statement, my claim is no lie. Now drop the stupid discussion about semantics, why would I lie about my own statements in the very same thread? It doesn't make much sense, now does it? Now consider the possibility that I might actually have meant the same thing, even if I didn't use the same wording. Would that perhaps make sense? Of course it does.

The probability of me actually not having made the claims you are arguing here really is non-existant in your mind, isn't it? If you think Amiga Inc. would be like talking to a brick wall, try having a conversation with yourself...

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

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This is really silly!

Even I as a non english native speaker understood what samface meant by what he
wrote. When you generally speak about something "not materializing" it would
mean the end product not being released. If AHT had other plans aswell or later
changed them and releases a new product, samface would still be correct about
the Ariana+AROS "not materializing". IMHO

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@Samwel

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When you generally speak about something "not materializing" it would mean the end product not being released.

Please keep in mind that we are talking about Amiga, Inc.'s reasons for not allowing AOS4 to be used for the Ariana at the time their decision was made. Discussions in hindsite of "Ariana+AROS" or anything else that might have followed the licensing decision chronologically is not relevant to that, obviously. Unless Amiga, Inc. staff have the gift of prophesy -- something their overall business curve would suggest they don't have -- then such things as "Ariana+AROS" are completely out of the picture. Samface may or may not be correct about that product not materializing. I don't really know what happened with it. But IMO he confused the discussion of the Amiga, Inc. license decision by bringing up things that were not part of the context of the decision.

-- gary_c

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@Samwel

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Even I as a non english native speaker understood what samface meant by what he wrote. When you generally speak about something "not materializing" it would mean the end product not being released. If AHT had other plans aswell or later changed them and releases a new product, samface would still be correct about the Ariana+AROS "not materializing". IMHO

Perhaps you should follow the complete discussion, and listen to the parties really involved, before claiming Samface is right.

The discussion was about Amiga, Inc. making last-minute conditions which made the deal with AHT fail.

Samface is saying that since the Ariana never went into full scale production (which is totally different than "materializing", however you try to twist it (sammy, how is it that one always needs to interpret what you say? Words have precise meanings, USE THEM CORRECTLY)), then Amiga, Inc was probably right in not making the deal, and perhaps they even smelled it would never go into production, so that's why they didn't make the deal.

But that's rubbish! Samface is almost trying to invert the sequence of events!

The deal with Amiga Inc was to be made more than one year earlier than AHT willingly changed their plans. None of the parties involved - I repeat: none of them had the slightest idea, or could forecast, that AHT would one day decide to switch architecture.

Samface stated that "AHT claimed support for AROS", as if it weren't true. Indeed, Samface confirmed that since the Ariana never went in full scale production, he doesn't consider AROS supported by AHT.

What the heck, since when it's his job to decide if AROS was supported? I am the one who was in contact with AHT, I know that they gave me all the support they could, and I know that they've probably switched plans also because I hadn't had time to make a native version of AROS for the Ariana, and they were free to change plans because they didn't have a binding deal with me.

You just can't use that logic, it's like swapping cause and effects! In all probability, AHT changed their plans because the deal was not made, not the other way around!

It can't be more clear than that.

Speculate all you want about AInc's motives to make those last-minute conditions, but stop spreading FUD about things of which people in here have first hand information, because they were involved.

Last edited by falemagn on 22-May-2006 at 07:29 AM.

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@samface

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Bullocks. What I claimed to have said was what I said, nothing else.

Are you serious?!

In the 1st post, you said that the Ariana never materialized.

In the 2nd post, you said that their plans never materialized.

Those are 2 entirely different things.

Sammy, do you realize anyone can go back and make up his mind by himself? Isn't it a bit (lot, actually) naive to try and twist reality like that? It doesn't make you look smart, I'd say.

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system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

@gary_c

Quote:

Please keep in mind that we are talking about Amiga, Inc.'s reasons for not allowing AOS4 to be used for the Ariana at the time their decision was made. Discussions in hindsite of "Ariana+AROS" or anything else that might have followed the licensing decision chronologically is not relevant to that, obviously.

To conclude that it wouldn't be relevant, you would have to know the reasons for why the "Ariana+AROS" project never materialized. You do NOT know wether Amiga Inc. had come to know something that would indeed lead to the situation that the "Ariana+AROS" project ended up with. And no, it wouldn't neccessarily require "the gift of prophecy". Just imagine that AHT had shared their business strategy with Amiga Inc. and then Amiga Inc. finds some kind of irregularity in it and decides to pull the plug.

I'm not saying this would be the truth, I'm just presenting an alternative way of looking at things to demonstrate the simpel fact that we just don't know, and THAT is the point I've been trying to make all along. See?

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

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Just imagine that AHT had shared their business strategy with Amiga Inc. and then Amiga Inc. finds some kind of irregularity in it and decides to pull the plug.

You don't need to imagine that, imagining that would be like living in a parallel reality as we do know what happened on that front: it wasn't Amiga, Inc. that pulled the plug, it was AHT!

Amiga, Inc. rather demanded last-minute conditions. Is in your world "demanding last-minute condition" another way of saying "pulling the plug"?

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@falemagn

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falemagn wrote: @samface Quote: Bullocks. What I claimed to have said was what I said, nothing else. Are you serious?! In the 1st post, you said that the Ariana never materialized. In the 2nd post, you said that their plans never materialized. Those are 2 entirely different things.

The Ariana as an end-user product was what AHT had planned for and those plans are what I was refering to when I said that their plans never materialized, nothing else. Please look at the context. When taken out of it's context, of course it could imply so much more than what was originally intended. But the thing is that it was said in a specific context, rendering explanations of every little word that could possibly have another meaning in other contexts superfluous. Furthermore, it was a reference to what I had said earlier, that in itself should tell you that the interpretation is intended to be the same. Why is this so hard to understand?

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Sammy, do you realize anyone can go back and make up his mind by himself? Isn't it a bit (lot, actually) naive to try and twist reality like that? It doesn't make you look smart, I'd say.

How many times do I have to repeat that I've never meant to "twist" anything? The only reason for changing my wording was to vary my choice of words, not to change the meaning of them. Why would I want to change the meaning of the words I used the first time when they represented what I wanted to say just fine as they were? Do you realize how it makes YOU look to argue about something this pointless?

I encourage anyone to go back and make up his mind by himself, like Samwel did, for example.

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@falemagn

Quote:

it wasn't Amiga, Inc. that pulled the plug, it was AHT!

This statement of yours doesn't neccessarily reflect the truth, just whose claims you've decided to believe. In any case, all I meant to do was state another possible way of seeing things. Not as a claim of what actually happened, but as a demonstration of that this is all speculation and that we just don't *know*. We agreed that people shouldn't be making claims about things we don't know, right?

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface
Quote:

The Ariana as an end-user product was what AHT had planned for and those plans are what I was refering to when I said that their plans never materialized, nothing else.

As I asked earlier, why is this relevant? If we are discussing Amiga, Inc.'s logic for acting as it did, only the information as of the time of their Ariana license decision is relevant. How could the materialization of Ariana as an end-user product (i.e., the eventual marketing of the product to end users) be a factor when the project was still at the OS procurement stage? Of course those plans hadn't materialized at that point. How could they? This is why I mentioned the gift of prophecy. Did you mean Amiga, Inc.'s "expectations" regarding the materialization of Ariana as an end-user product? -- You don't want to get involved in semantic discussions, but trying to follow your reasoning seems to lead one down to that level.

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I'm not saying this would be the truth, I'm just presenting an alternative way of looking at things to demonstrate the simpel fact that we just don't know, and THAT is the point I've been trying to make all along. See?

Well, I think if you want to simply make the point that "none of us really knows," it's rather counterproductive to offer in the same breath such conjecture as "Could it be that Amiga Inc. had already realized that their product wasn't going to materialize with the business plan proposed?" -- a view that Hyperion didn't seem to share, for what it's worth. It's self-evident that it was counter to Amiga, Inc.'s interests to give the license. Of course the question is, for a company with no apparent conflicting obligations and almost no income flow, why that would be. Anyway, I think anyone who read everything that was public about that situation probably has a fairly strong impression of what happened (absent the specific details of course) and who, if anyone, they want to label the "bad guys," so there's no point in continuing to loop through this.

-- gary_c

Last edited by gary_c on 22-May-2006 at 08:48 AM.

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@gary_c

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Hyperion didn't seem to share that view

And what makes it seem that way, if I may ask? I seriously haven't read anything anywhere to suggest anything along those lines. No offense, but claims coming from you, just like myself, are not exactly known to be unbiased.

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Quote:

Could it be that Amiga Inc. had already realized that their product wasn't going to materialize with the business plan proposed? We don't know, we can only speculate.

Srry Samface, I couldn't left this untouched... Do you realy believe, that Amiga Inc has *any* kind of foresight? You got to be kidding, aye!?

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@samface

Quote:

And what makes it seem that way, if I may ask? I seriously haven't read anything anywhere to suggest anything along those lines

Hyperion guys have made veiled references to the ability to grant licenses being out of their hands and so on. More specifically, I believe I recall one of them confirming in these forums that the AHT description of what happened re Ariana to be substantially correct. Further, logic would suggest that if negotiations between Hyperion and AHT were close to finalizing, but then were stopped by demands made by Amiga, Inc., that Amiga, Inc. had a different opinion than Hyperion on the matter (conversely Hyperion had a different view than Amiga, Inc., which was my point.) In short, it wasn't Hyperion that caused the negotiations with AHT to fail, it was Amiga, Inc.

-- gary_c

Last edited by gary_c on 22-May-2006 at 08:57 AM.

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@gary_c

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gary_c wrote: @samface Quote: And what makes it seem that way, if I may ask? I seriously haven't read anything anywhere to suggest anything along those lines Hyperion guys have made veiled references to the ability to grant licenses being out of their hands and so on.

Well, that's not the impression I got from the official AmigaOS4 website, it actually encourages hardware manufacturers/dealers to contact them directly if they would be interested in having support for their hardware in AmigaOS4.

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More specifically, I believe I recall one of them confirming in these forums that the AHT description of what happened re Ariana to be substantially correct.

That is no response to what would make things seem as you claim, that's just more claims.

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Further, logic would suggest that if negotiations between Hyperion and AHT were close to finalizing, but then were stopped by demands made by Amiga, Inc., that Amiga, Inc. had a different opinion than Hyperion on the matter (conversely Hyperion had a different view than Amiga, Inc., which was my point.) In short, it wasn't Hyperion that caused the negotiations with AHT to fail, it was Amiga, Inc.

I'm afraid that's flawed logic. Even if we actually were able to answer the question of who did what as you claim, it still doesn't answer the question about why. With no access to information about the circumstances nor anyone's reason for doing what they did, we can't make any conclusions about it.

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@gary_c
Quote:

Further, logic would suggest that if negotiations between Hyperion and AHT were close to finalizing, but then were stopped by demands made by Amiga, Inc., that Amiga, Inc. had a different opinion than Hyperion on the matter (conversely Hyperion had a different view than Amiga, Inc., which was my point.) In short, it wasn't Hyperion that caused the negotiations with AHT to fail, it was Amiga, Inc.

At least Hyperion shouldn't have had any reason to be thrilled about the AHT affair. No reason why they would have wanted the negotiations to fail.

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@polka.

So, this is what gary_c is talking about :

Quote:

I was less than thrilled by the AHT affair, of course.

?

How does that imply that Hyperion would have a different view than Amiga Inc.? I'm sure Amiga Inc. isn't thrilled about the AHT affair too.

Once again it turns out to be just about how we as individuals decide to interpret things rather than absolute truths. Why am I not surprised?

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface
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How does that imply that Hyperion would have a different view than Amiga Inc.?

It doesn't imply that, samface.

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I'm sure Amiga Inc. isn't thrilled about the AHT affair too.

Hmm, dunno. In contrast to Hyperion, they could have influenced things. Why do you think they did those last-minute amendments?

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@polka.

Quote:

Hmm, dunno. In contrast to Hyperion, they could have influenced things.

If Hyperion had no influence at all, why would they encourage hardware manufacturers/dealers that would like AmigaOS4 to support their hardware to contact them directly on the official AmigaOS4 website?

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Why do you think they did those last-minute amendments?

I don't know. But I do know that Amiga Inc. could have simply declined them a license if they wanted to, why make an offer with the intent of discouraging AHT to accept?

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: Quote: Why do you think they did those last-minute amendments? I don't know. But I do know that Amiga Inc. could have simply declined them a license if they wanted to, why make an offer with the intent of discouraging AHT to accept?

Exactly! Why if, as you suggested, AInc had foreseen that the Ariana would not go into mass production, didn't they just deny the license?

And anyway, you keep ignoring all the explanations about why your hypothesis is flawed to begin with.

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system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford