@gary_c

Quote:

Quote: I can't see why it is either Power.org or nothing. I doesn't need to be. But there is no other PowerPC industry group like it, as far as I know, no other means to link directly to other companies and groups who all have the architecture's advance as a priority.

I'm less informed than you, but I have no problem trusting you on this.

Quote:

Genesi got involved for the same reason that they are trying to get others involved: power.org is the natural forum for companies and others involved in PowerPC computing.

While I'm sure that one of their reasons to join power.org is that it is the "natural forum", I'm not sure at all that they are trying to get the AOS community involved (just) for that reason.

Quote:

If you see other possibilities, what are they? What is the third option, in addition to "Power.org or nothing"?

Well, I agree that for aiming high power.org really looks like the primary way today - at least to me, who I'm not involved in the biz in any way. However, I can't really see why it has *necessarily* to be the only one. What if one found a major partner outside of power.org? Why is it absolutely impossible?
Moreover, it also depends on what one wants to achieve. Targets must not be necessarily the top of the top. For smaller aims(*), also minor (but easy and trusted) partnerships may help.
Finally, although unlikely, with patience, bravery and wits (and funds ), even a single small entity may become a nice reality.

(*)BTW, in fact, nobody can realistically hope that AOS can (quickly) become a dominating desktop OS - of course, I'd be glad if Hyperion now laughed at this statement if they already had a partnership with a giant of the industry

Quote:

Quote: BB came here and made the first post of this thread. He wants to divide & conquer. Wants the community and use the community itself to reach AOS, given that the he cannot reach it through the normal channels. Looks more to me like he's advocating cooperation, not division.

Indeed when I wrote "divide & conquer" I was mostly thinking of the past and I definitely misplaced it after mentioning the first post. Sorry, I mixed things up.
Anyway, I can as well look at this as an attempt to get in touch in an alternative way (if you can't beat them, join them ), with the intention of somehow cutting the distance to AOS.
Before I'm mistaken for a visionary fool, let me clearly state that I'm not saying that this *is* the way things are. This is just a possibility that pops up as a natural successor to the failed try-normally (?) / try-by-force (lawsuit), try-by-stirring-up-the-community attempts.

Quote:

And it's already been acknowledged that we don't know what he has done thorugh normal channels, so I suggest you refrain from stating what he cannot do through normal channels when you really have no idea.

I have no idea of what has/has not been done, but I do know what the outcome has been: Mr Buck does not have a license.
If he did not try, despite openly showing/admitting his interest in having AOS (licensed port/ownership/whatever), then there must be something stopping him, hence he cannot have it through the normal channels.
If he tried, then he failed (because of an AInc's denial / unsufficiently interesting proposal / politics / whatever), and hence he cannot have it through the normal channels.

Quote:

Quote: once reached the limits, they should have just let it rest. Many successful individuals in many fields would disagree with you about that. A limit may be only an apparent one, and may be surpassed on the next effort. We see this all the time in sports, technology, science, etc.

The point is that there *are* limits. Anybody has to find his own by himself, but there are.
Moreover, I did not just say that, but I said:
Quote:

This means once they had been told "No, thanks", they could have just behaved like true gentlemen (as they have proved to be capable of) and at most keep on trying the proper way as hard as possible; once reached the limits, they should have just let it rest.

which really means pushing the limits like the successful individuals do.

Quote:

Quote: Whatever is the answer to "Did BB try to get the license the proper way", the blame cannot be thrown on AInc. It's reasonable to assume half the blame can be, if not more.

I have already provided a perfectly sound motivation why it is not (but it seems you preferred cutting it away). Luckily, I can repeat the reason with few words: it is not wise to partner with somebody who proved not to be a reliable partner.

Quote:

But it's rather pointless to speculate. The bottom line is that no company other than Eyetech has gotten a license,

That's to the best of *your* knowledge. Until a few days ago, you did not even know that other projects besides Troika/ACK's there were others (WARNING: please everybody do not read anything between these lines! I know just as much as you, i.e. I have no idea whether Samantha and all the others have an official license), so how can you know about their license?

saimo

P.S. I'm too tired to check this post for typos or conceptual errors... if any, I'll correct them ASAP.

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

@Jorge

Quote:

Well, what I don't understand (and don't get this wrong, I appreciate the effort), if a "free" solution is what we want, why is AROS not there yet? It supports x86 (a main stream HW), is not bound to any licensing scheme, has tons of developers (thru open source) and is in development longer than AmigaO4.

Probably because AmigaOS is worth $#|? these days... but probably the right answer would be, without developers that knows how AmigaOS behave from inside out jumping a board it will take quite a long time until AROS came to the usability levels present in either AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS... you see, being on x86 doesn't do miracles.. because miracles only hyperion does them instantaneously, impossible take a litle longer

_________________
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The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

Quote:

bbrv wrote: Hi AW.net, we have been requested to post information about the EFIKA here.

Hey, bbrv!

How'd this get listed under "Amiga Development".

Wake up, this isn't an "Amiga Development" at all, it doesn't run AOS4.0(x).
Oh wait, is it possibly because you want to be on the front page?

Didn't you see the "Alt Amiga OS" for
Quote:

Discussion Forum for Alternative Amiga Operating Systems such as MorphOS, AROS, etc. Because this is mainly a Pro-Amiga/OS4 site, topics from this forum will not be displayed on the frontpage.

See bolded part above?

Oh and, yeah, "we have been requested to post information about the EFIKA here".... by all the beautiful mor-p-eg users, I'm sure.

I certainly am not in the least bit interested, but post here, as your dogs (paid or not) continually waste OUR time posting in OUR threads.

Quote:

As the time for the general release is drawing close,

Of AOS4.0(x) capable boards by OTHERS!!!!

Quote:

we thought we would open up the entire discussion

Into our opportunity grabbing direction,

Quote:

(particularly since the lawyers for the Amiga IP holders are active again!).

And what does that mean? Is it really Amiga Inc.'s or yours?

Still trying to get AOS4.0(x) for US$4.50 per licensed copy to ONLY those who request it at time of purchase? And it'll be listed as available in small writing on some other page as an option?

Hyperion, hear me well; if you go with this I WILL pirate AOS4.0(x) and use it with their board.

There is only one way for AOS4.0(x) to survive, and that's with a one-to-one ratio of motherboard and AOS4.0(x).

Anything else is suicide.

Even a US$4.50 one-to-one ratio if it were coupled with EVERY Playstation III sold, you guys would be being RIPPED OFF ROYALLY!!!!!

Why is b.g. worth 45 billion? and his OS is ABSOLUTE CRAP...... You deserve near equal returns for what you've brought up to date. The A1 No. # 1 OS of all time!
(I'm just telling it like it is, folks.)

Quote:

So here goes: fun4u2blog Is there anything else?! When we are sure there is nothing else we will start posting answers there - except for the really juicy stuff and we will save that for Total Amiga... R&B

There's no juices that I want from you, one without integrity.

You had morp, and you let it go.... There are ~8 Linux and that for your HW, and you're here chasing this, how desparate are you?


Buy Amiga Inc. and do what you want, until then, you're shortening the lifespan of my keyboard.

@Atheist

Please stop trolling!

If you have any issues with what is being posted, why not contact an amigaworld moderator and have them deal with it? Better yet, why not become a moderator yourself?

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@saimo

Quote:

it is not wise to partner with somebody who proved not to be a reliable partner.

Heh, then it should be Genesi that is reluctant, not Amiga, Inc. Recall it was Amiga, Inc. that was the unreliable partner in the companies' first attempt to cooperate, according the courts. (And if you think AI didn't really "lose" the case but simply forfeited it due to an inability to afford legal representation, that still falls under the description of being "unreliable" as a business partner. In what way is mismanaging affairs so thoroughly that not even basic legal requirements can be met an indication of corporate reliability? -- This is quite apart from the actual finding of the court itself, I hope you understand.)

It was Amiga, Inc. that failed to pay rent on their offices, owes back taxes in the state of Washinton, has outstanding debts to various companies, owes back wages to former employees -- all a matter of public record -- and apparently went through a series of on-paper ownership changes simply to protect IP and other assets, including from people who have legitimate, court-verified claims. I'm not eager to rehash these old matters, but mention them only because you seem to have forgotten or want to ignore the history and are making bogus statements that reflect that.

I acknowledge that circumstances were hard, but this was also the case for Genesi; it's unreasonable and illogical to ignore/excuse one company and condemn the other. The pragmatic thing to do at this point is probably to accept that neither has a spotless past, for one reason or another, and they should let bygones be bygones and do what can be done to salvage things and move forward. If either is unwilling to do that, it only shows their complete disinterest or even contempt for the would-be users of their products. Time will tell, right?

Quote:

The bottom line is that no company other than Eyetech has gotten a license,Quote: That's to the best of *your* knowledge. Until a few days ago, you did not even know that other projects besides Troika/ACK's there were others

True, but I wonder what the reason would be to keep the license a secret if any of these other guys had gotten one. Since, also, there's a record of people/companies trying and failing to get a license, I feel the best assumption is that there is no license until we know for sure that there is one.

But that's getting ahead of ourselves. The first hurdle is developing the hardware, prototyping, bug fixing, redesigning, financing production runs, etc. I think it'd be fine if one or more of these projects did get to the selling stage. Unlike Alan Redhouse, I don't think there's room for only one producer of offbeat PowerPC motherboards. In fact, if more than one can survive, it reaffirms the rationale for the others. Then the question is which one(s) do the best job of finding niches and selling to them. (Assuming a workable piracy protection method can be worked out -- which would be needed for anything sold as a Linux board without AOS.) Unlike what someone posted earlier, I don't think the prospect of competition from these newcomers is especially frightening to Genesi.

-- gary_c

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Quote:

Darth_X wrote: @Atheist Please stop trolling!

You mean, ahem, like you aren't?

You troll before you even write the first character of a reply, look at your signature.

Quote:

The difference between Bill Mcewen and Bill Buck being sent a nasty email: Bill McEwen would hide under a rock claiming death threats, Bill Buck would post "Hey guys.. I got fanmail!"

THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME FOR YOU, either.


And I HAVE in fact complained before of your troll stance in a previous signature you've had.

Don't like Amiga Inc., Eyetech, and Hyperion? Fine, we KNOW that, so don't buy their products and leave already. I'm sure your posts are highly valued on Moobunny and morpzon.

Quote:

Removed text for flaming

Quote:

Flame/Attacks: Do not flame! Flaming refers to derogatory, abusive, threatening, sarcastic, rude, or otherwise mean-spirited messages directed at members/users. Be cautious when using sarcasm and humour. Without facial expressions and tone of voice, they do not translate easily over the Internet in posts and may be perceived as flaming. Report the flame posts immediately to an Amigaworld Team Member so that the situation can be dealt with immediately.

Last edited by tomazkid on 08-Sep-2006 at 01:23 PM.

Removed post.

Quote:

Troll: Trolls show no respect for other people's opinions and deliberately crafts messages to provoke others with the intention of wasting their time and energy or just to cause anger and confrontations. There is no point in arguing with them; their minds are made up. Ignore them, and report the posts immediately to an Amigaworld Team Member.

Last edited by tomazkid on 09-Sep-2006 at 04:58 AM.

Quote:

bbrv wrote: @Amiga Inc. legal question: the current Amiga, Inc. of Delaware seems to have become more aggressive and restrictive on their IP claims, and they apparently have money to spend on law firms (though Bolton is still owed money and has an outstanding judgment). In the meanwhile, the Amiga trademark has become very weak.

Oh, the important part is next:
Quote:

Many patents have expired and a German court has already ruled that no exclusive rights to the OS went out of Commodore. Not to mention here are legal licensees from that time period, but that is enough for now. We will cover the rest in the questions... R&B

Quote:

Removed 2 sentences/tomazkid

From TOS:
Quote:

Troll: Trolls show no respect for other people's opinions and deliberately crafts messages to provoke others with the intention of wasting their time and energy or just to cause anger and confrontations. There is no point in arguing with them; their minds are made up. Ignore them, and report the posts immediately to an Amigaworld Team Member.

@Atheist
I asked the participants in this thread to calm down earlier, that goes for you as well. /tomazkid

Last edited by tomazkid on 08-Sep-2006 at 10:00 PM.

@Atheist

Quote:

And what does that mean? Is it really Amiga Inc.'s or yours?

I imagine he's referring to Amiga, Inc.'s closing down amiga.org's Cafe Press web shop recently. Isn't that well known by now?

Quote:

Still trying to get AOS4.0(x) for US$4.50 per licensed copy to ONLY those who request it at time of purchase?

That was the price in the old AmigaAnywhere negotiations, wasn't it? I don't think it has anything to do with anything today. I assume if AOS4 did run on Pegs, Hyperion would get the full sales price of the OS. Amiga, Inc. would get whatever percentage of that that they and Hyperion agree on. It has, or should have, nothing to do with Genesi (or any of the other would-be hardware producers). This is my view on the license fee, of course. AI might well insist on something completely unrealistic. After all, they have nothing to lose: they don't really seem to care if AOS4 produces any income for them or not, judging from their past behavior.

Quote:

There is only one way for AOS4.0(x) to survive, and that's with a one-to-one ratio of motherboard and AOS4.0(x). Anything else is suicide.

If there's one thing that everyone around here who has any knowledge of these markets has agreed on, it's that the AOS4 market is not big enough to sustain a motherboard project by itself. That means selling to users of other OSs. That means a one-to-one hw/AOS4 ratio is not possible.

You can dream about the Amiga user base zooming steadily upward until the hardware company is supported by those sales alone. But dreams don't pay the bills.

A long time ago I proposed an idea to take care of the "unique Amiga computer" desire and AOs piracy protection at the same time. There would be a USB dongle sold with the OS, but not just a simple stick; it'd be wired to a case-front bezel badge or something to mark the computer as an "authentic Amiga". The badge would only be available with the shrinkwrapped OS, and the OS would only run when the badge is plugged in. Is that cool or what?

-- gary_c

Last edited by gary_c on 08-Sep-2006 at 05:13 AM.

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@Atheist

Quote:

How'd this get listed under "Amiga Development". Wake up, this isn't an "Amiga Development" at all, it doesn't run AOS4.0(x). Oh wait, is it possibly because you want to be on the front page? Didn't you see the "Alt Amiga OS" for

I know why. Because they want OS4 for free on the EFIKA too.

Remember? OS4 on embedded hardware? Typical.

_________________
A1G3-SE + OS4.1 u1 iso (x2)

@Dirk-B

Quote:

Because they want OS4 for free on the EFIKA too.

Am I missing something basic here? Where did this "for free" come from? Hyperion gets paid for every unit of AOS4 sold, don't they? Of course Genesi doesn't pay this, the end purchaser does, either directly or as part of the bundle price, which is passed on to Hyperion. Genesi is not in this loop at all except maybe as the middle party if the hw/OS are sold together. What scenario are you thinking about where AOS is "free"? Or are you expecting that Troika, ACK and any others will buy AmigaOS4 and then resell it? That seems kind of harsh, but if it were the only way, it could apply just as easily for the Efika, assuming there is a market for that combination.

-- gary_c

Last edited by gary_c on 08-Sep-2006 at 05:23 AM.

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@gary_c

You know it, a free license.

_________________
A1G3-SE + OS4.1 u1 iso (x2)

@Dirk-B

Sure, why shouldn't the license be free? Amiga, Inc. gets its money from unit sales, maybe 10% of what Hyperion charges for the OS, or whatever. There is no reason on earth why Genesi or any other motherboard maker should pay the OS vendor to provide the OS vendor with machines their product is useless without. Why shouldn't Amiga, Inc. pay Genesi a hardware license fee? That makes just as much|little sense.

I think any kind of license fee is viable when the party requiring it can get away with it, for supply-demand reasons primarily. Amiga, Inc. is not in that position.

Is it common for OS makers/IP holders to demand a fee from board makers for the right to use their OS? I wonder if, for example, you want to run Windriver or QNX on your new board, do you have to pay those companies for the right (I mean a fee separate from paying for units of the OS)? Anyone know?

Update: From what I saw at QNX.com, it looks like QNX puts a lot of resources into getting their OS on people's hardware -- exactly the opposite of erecting barriers in the form of advance fees. I didn't find any explicit statements that "we charge no license fee" though. It seems the AOS4 license fee came about primarily because one of the parties involved, Eyetech, wanted to supply the hardware and prevent others from competing as a supplier. Normally, software companies want to get their product on as much good hardware as possible because that's how they earn their money.

-- gary_c

Last edited by gary_c on 08-Sep-2006 at 05:59 AM.
Last edited by gary_c on 08-Sep-2006 at 05:41 AM.

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@gary_c

Except that QNX is a complete different beast. Hard to copy - because not available as a general purpose OS. Not really the same situation with a consumer targeted general purpose OS.

I mean, how to you make sure the people will actually buy the OS and not just copy it ?

Bundling it with the HW is one option.

Last edited by Jorge on 08-Sep-2006 at 06:12 AM.

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@Jorge

Quote:

Except that QNX is a complete different beast.

True, the markets are different (although QNX does have products for desktop systems). So it'd be good to find other examples. How about Windows? Do motherboard makers pay Microsoft a license fee?

Quote:

I mean, how to you make sure the people will actually buy the OS and not just copy it ?

See dongle/badge idea, above.

Quote:

Bundling it with the HW is one option.

Right, and is an option. But this means the hardware company couldn't sell boards without AmigaOS, as AI/Hyperion fear copies of the OS would end up on these boards. This means no board sales to larger markets, i.e., no financial viability for the hardware, so the shop closes up and AmigaOS users are also left high and dry.

-- gary_c

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Quote:

@Atheist gary_c wrote: Quote: And what does that mean? Is it really Amiga Inc.'s or yours? I imagine he's referring to Amiga, Inc.'s closing down amiga.org's Cafe Press web shop recently. Isn't that well known by now?

Hi gary_c

Honestly, and bbrv wasted our time on bringing this up crytically because? It's non-sequitur to his "announcement".


Quote:

Quote: Still trying to get AOS4.0(x) for US$4.50 per licensed copy to ONLY those who request it at time of purchase? That was the price in the old AmigaAnywhere negotiations, wasn't it?

Indeed it was, and I guarantee you that bill gates didn't become the 6 billion dollar man, ten times over, collecting $4.50 per windross install.

Quote:

I don't think it has anything to do with anything today.

To bb it does, that's the price he wants it for.

Quote:

I assume if AOS4 did run on Pegs, Hyperion would get the full sales price of the OS. Amiga, Inc. would get whatever percentage of that that they and Hyperion agree on. It has, or should have, nothing to do with Genesi (or any of the other would-be hardware producers). This is my view on the license fee, of course.

There's the problem, there is NO WAY that we could get accurate figures of how many shipped WITH AOS4.0(x), and there is no push to get it bundled, hence Rogue and associates will be sitting by the mail slot, with never a "check in the mail" there.

Quote:

AI might well insist on something completely unrealistic. After all, they have nothing to lose: they don't really seem to care if AOS4 produces any income for them or not, judging from their past behavior.

Well, they have only two choices, a big up front flat fee and low, low license fee, or just a big license fee per copy. That's the ONLY revenue stream that exists for them, and they are entitled to it, as they DID acquire the rights for it to be available to us.


Quote:

Quote: There is only one way for AOS4.0(x) to survive, and that's with a one-to-one ratio of motherboard and AOS4.0(x). Anything else is suicide. If there's one thing that everyone around here who has any knowledge of these markets has agreed on, it's that the AOS4 market is not big enough to sustain a motherboard project by itself. That means selling to users of other OSs. That means a one-to-one hw/AOS4 ratio is not possible.

If I were them, I'd wait and wait, they know what's at stake.

Quote:

You can dream about the Amiga user base zooming steadily upward until the hardware company is supported by those sales alone. But dreams don't pay the bills.

See above.

Quote:

A long time ago I proposed an idea to take care of the "unique Amiga computer" desire and AOs piracy protection at the same time. There would be a USB dongle sold with the OS, but not just a simple stick; it'd be wired to a case-front bezel badge or something to mark the computer as an "authentic Amiga". The badge would only be available with the shrinkwrapped OS, and the OS would only run when the badge is plugged in. Is that cool or what? -- gary_c

Gary, that's first I heard of your idea.

Well, I have no opinion on that, others would have to say if it's possible/secure/worthwhile.



Hi Dirk-B,

Hehe. Bingo!

@Atheist

Quote:

Removed edited quote/tomazkid

OS4Emu isn't a crack - it's ELF binary compatibility.

Saying OS4Emu is a crack is like saying iBCS, FreeBSD/NetBSD's Linux-ELF support and Wine are cracks.

CLUE: They're not.

Last edited by tomazkid on 09-Sep-2006 at 12:22 AM.

@Atheist

Hey Atheist,

still vowing to defend the faith I see.

I am curious... What is it gonna do to you if BBRV gets his way? How is BBRV "bad"?

_________________
- Ronald

All beer tastes bad.

@Atheist

Quote:

Indeed it was, and I guarantee you that bill gates didn't become the 6 billion dollar man, ten times over, collecting $4.50 per windross install.

The situations are quite different. Microsoft produces Windows, and thus gets the bulk of the earnings. AOS4 is Hyperion's product, and Amiga, Inc. is only entitled to a percentage. This simple fact realigns the comparison considerably, even without getting into the details of each product and market.

Quote:

Quote: I don't think it has anything to do with anything today. To bb it does, that's the price he wants it for.

Even if it was, it is just a license fee and so should not be a large percentage of the unit price of the OS, and should be paid on a per-unit basis. If Hyperion is selling AOS4 for $100, what do you think Amiga, Inc. gets out of that? They would still get that, whether the hardware is an Eyetech A1 or a Genesi ODW or a Troika AmyO5 or whatever. The point is, in none of these cases is a punitive barrier in the form of a large upfront fee reasonable. If Amiga, Inc. wants a "license fee" of $50 per unit that's up to them, if they think they can get that. But the key is the fee should be paid on individual units, not a large flat fee no matter how many|few sell, IMO. That's not a reasonable risk for the system seller, not in this situation especially.

-- gary_c

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@nine

Don't try to explain OS4Emu to Atheist - it's a hopeless cause, he never had a clue what it was about (see dedicated thread). Ah, just realized that newlib.library, warp3d.library and application.library were introduced with last version (1.9).