@thread

I have thought about this theme on and off for the past couple of months, re the winks and the smileys, and although I am against them out of principle, I must say that I understand Ikir's distress from one perspective.

Having read through the responses (many of which were light hearted), I disagree with singling out Ikir per se. My own view is that he has taken a picture and posted it here with either good intentions or bad. However, my problem stems not with Ikir's publication/promotion of this cryptic photo, but with those who would mean to produce hardware for us to run OS4 on. It is up to them to produce the evidence and ultimately the goods and not Ikir. I don't know what the situation is, but since Ikir is a betatester he may be privvy to information regarding new hardware and this is all he can reveal to us, and as time goes on he is able to show us more as things become "declassified".

Therefore, my appeal goes out not to Ikir, but to the hardware "producers" (ie. those who would deign to produce such things) to reveal projects or whatever, and not leave the onus up to a single member of AW to cop the flak... something which he certainly cannot be responsible for. He is not their PR man.

If something needs to be said, then let it be from the project heads themselves, and in my humble opinion, any criticism which is to be thrown, should be at those who are entirely secretive (ie the HW producers and in the manner in which they choose to reveal information...) and not at the messenger who is a normal Joe Citizen.

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@Bodie_CI5

Correct. AFAIK, Ikir is not even betatester, he's just the messenger. Don't shoot the messenger.

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@Bodie_CI5

Quote:

If something needs to be said, then let it be from the project heads themselves, and in my humble opinion, any criticism which is to be thrown, should be at those who are entirely secretive (ie the HW producers and in the manner in which they choose to reveal information...) and not at the messenger who is a normal Joe Citizen.

The problem with this is that previous attempts by hardware producers to reveal information have generally been met negatively. Under the circumstances I'm not surprised that some have decided to stay quiet until they have something to show (which they are planning to do at this Italian show, as I understand it). This is something that several people have suggested in heated threads after previous announcements.

Also, a lot of people on here seem to have little understanding or consideration for the kind of difficulties and delays which affect all such projects, perhaps due to the many disappointments of the past. If I were in their shoes I'd certainly think twice about revealing anything too soon.

I am rather surprised that no one has gone the route of total transparency, e.g. maintaining a blog detailing progress, setbacks, etc. I'd guess that this means that this is impossible, possibly due to the nature of the agreements required for OS4 licensing, although it could just be that no-one's thought to try it, or they've been discouraged by the reaction to any disclosure made by other companies in the past.

Last edited by madtrekker on 30-Aug-2006 at 10:31 AM.

@madtrekker

I don't know of anyone who has shown a product with their announcement other than Eyetech. The only others were Troika, who have not shown anything in the way of a prototype (so people criticized) and ACK, who appears to have several projects on the burner at once, keeps making public showing dates which he fails to meet. And he also fails to show up when expected and tell people it's not going to happen until hours or days after there is a 7 page thread complaining about it.

The problem with all of these companies is the method in which they are communicating with their potential user base. It's not what they say and show, but how they do it or fail to do so that people have criticized.

@Herewegoagain

Which should be understandable, considering the fact that the low level current projects investment status,and available money/resources for development, let alone spending it in PR stuff.

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@SGM

I meant OS4 betatester, but I don't think his role is even that of messenger, but in any case.

@madtrekker

Quote:

The problem with this is that previous attempts by hardware producers to reveal information have generally been met negatively. Under the circumstances I'm not surprised that some have decided to stay quiet until they have something to show (which they are planning to do at this Italian show, as I understand it). This is something that several people have suggested in heated threads after previous announcements.

I have no argument with you there, madtrekker, as your statement is based, quite obviously, on empirical evidence and is not speculative in any sense. However, the various non-shows have aggravated, and quite understandably, many within the Amiga community. People want something tangible in their hands, but then this becomes a circular debate and I won't go in to it any further.

Quote:

Also, a lot of people on here seem to have little understanding or consideration for the kind of difficulties and delays which affect all such projects, perhaps due to the many disappointments of the past. If I were in their shoes I'd certainly think twice about revealing anything too soon.

This is where (get ready for THE oxymoronic statement) an honest PR department is needed.

Quote:

I am rather surprised that no one has gone the route of total transparency, e.g. maintaining a blog detailing progress, setbacks, etc. I'd guess that this means that this is impossible, possibly due to the nature of the agreements required for OS4 licensing, although it could just be that no-one's thought to try it, or they've been discouraged by the reaction to any disclosure made by other companies in the past.

Indeed, however, past mistakes should be lessons for future producers. re the blog: there is someone who does keep a blog (I'll get into trouble if I say who, though ), maybe something could be gleaned off that. I've always been on the side of the transparency of which you talk of; it would most definitely get rid of much speculation (of which we Amigans are experts at... have you read Amiga Shopper's "Amiga Tapes"?). Critiquing will aways be with us, but at the least there will be something substantial there for us to behold rather than defending something which seemingly (rightly or wrongly) just does not exist without any hope or cause for optimism.


-edit-
Some bad grammar there... damn this flu, I can't shake it off!

Last edited by Bodie_CI5 on 30-Aug-2006 at 12:16 PM.

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@Bodie_CI5

Quote:

Indeed, however, past mistakes should be lessons for future producers. re the blog: there is someone who does keep a blog (I'll get into trouble if I say who, though ), maybe something could be gleaned off that. I've always been on the side of the transparency of which you talk of; it would most definitely get rid of much speculation (of which we Amigans are experts at... have you read Amiga Shopper's "Amiga Tapes"?).

Spot on. Transparency is what it's all about. That's how you gain trust. Although not commercially oriented, I was thinking of Dennis (the Minimig-guy) as a good example. His thread on Amiga.org was more like a blog. He posted some new pictures of the prototypes, explained where he was currently working on, people asked questions and gave suggestions, and Dennis answered them when he found the time for it.
The critics who screamed "hoax! hoax!" apologized after 2-3 more posts of Dennis. He came to community meetings and showed around some prototype versions of the Minimig. A lack of resources is no excuse for bad communication skills and failed "PR".

Quote:

damn this flu, I can't shake it off!

Get well soon!

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@madtrekker

Quote:

The problem with this is that previous attempts by hardware producers to reveal information have generally been met negatively

Never. There was never any substantial information revealed by anyone, backed with a real, working product. If these people have one, they should either show it or not, showing cropped photos is plainly idiotic.

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@Bodie_CI5

Quote:

I meant OS4 betatester, but I don't think his role is even that of messenger, but in any case.

He's the messenger: he hasn't seen the hw himself, but he has been given the green light to post the "clue #1". He's no OS4 betatester either.

About transparency: what you say is nice and cool, but it does not apply in a market where there is at least another competitor (yes, as odd as it may sound, there are competitors in the Amiga hw market; more than you can think of).

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@Bodie_CI5

Quote:

If something needs to be said, then let it be from the project heads themselves

(1)I linked to the updated Pianeta Amiga (english) page earlier in this thread.
(2)The developer has already responded in this thread.
(3)The team is handling information the way -they- wish, as are ALL the hardware
developers.

Currently their is no such thing as an "integrated Amiga hardware department".
There is also no one official spokesperson for the hardware developers as a group.
Until such a time -may- come, you will have to accept the reality under which
these folks must operate.

#6

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@sgm

Quote:

He's the messenger: he hasn't seen the hw himself, but he has been given the green light to post the "clue #1".

A messenger usually gets appointed by another entity to deliver a message. The only thing that I noticed on the Italian forum were excited guys repeatedly asking if they could link to the cropped photo in their signature or post some female mainboard names on AW.net.

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@polka.

Is this the same part unsoldered ?



Edit...

kinda hoping there was a few more pictures in the /image directory but only found that one

Last edited by JurassicC on 30-Aug-2006 at 01:35 PM.
Last edited by JurassicC on 30-Aug-2006 at 01:33 PM.
Last edited by JurassicC on 30-Aug-2006 at 01:32 PM.

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@number6

Quote:

There is also no one official spokesperson for the hardware developers as a group. Until such a time -may- come, you will have to accept the reality under which these folks must operate.

Easy things don't need to be made complicated by appointing an "official spokesperson". Or do you think the appointement of "JoshB" as the "Troika spokesman" has done them any good?
In my opinion, it would have been much better if Ian would have posted some news on Amy by himself. That doesn't mean that such a person would constantly need to update and daily posts some news. The way Dennis did it is actually a good example how it could have been done _without_ a spokesperson.

Quote:

About transparency: what you say is nice and cool, but it does not apply in a market where there is at least another competitor

Transparency doesn't mean to post Gerber-files on the forums. And a "real-life" prototype would even be more welcome than that (or some Dpaint-PCB layouts).

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@polka.

Quote:

Spot on. Transparency is what it's all about. That's how you gain trust. Although not commercially oriented, I was thinking of Dennis (the Minimig-guy) as a good example. His thread on Amiga.org was more like a blog. He posted some new pictures of the prototypes, explained where he was currently working on, people asked questions and gave suggestions, and Dennis answered them when he found the time for it. The critics who screamed "hoax! hoax!" apologized after 2-3 more posts of Dennis. He came to community meetings and showed around some prototype versions of the Minimig. A lack of resources is no excuse for bad communication skills and failed "PR".

In this case though he waited until he had pretty much got it working before he announced anything so it was very easy to disprove the people who cried hoax. The difference with new OS4 hardware is that everyone was already very eager for it when development would have been just starting on the various projects which now seem as if they are close to the point where they can be shown off. This means that there was no easy way to prove that the intentions of the hardware developers were honourable and any estimates which were given would be just that, and may have been given without any prior experience of projects on a similar scale to guide the estimates. I've been watching here for a while and releasing a small update on a project that isn't finished is a bit like dropping some nice juicy meat into a tank of hungry pirahna's!

@number6

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(2)The developer has already responded in this thread.

Where ? As far as I can see there is no post from any developer of said hardware in this thread.

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(3)The team is handling information the way -they- wish, as are ALL the hardware developers.

Again, I don't see anywhere any official posting about this supposed board.

@sgm

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...there are competitors in the Amiga hw market; more than you can think of...

Having 10 fingers (digits), I can count a fair bit and no, I'm not counting in binairy mode

OldFart

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@madtrekker

Quote:

This means that there was no easy way to prove that the intentions of the hardware developers were honourable and any estimates which were given would be just that, and may have been given without any prior experience of projects on a similar scale to guide the estimates.

I generally agree with you, however "companies" such as Troika haven't done any real effort to show that "they have honourable intentions". The lacking quality of their "press releases" and the amount of waffle and fluffed up specs on their website didn't improve the situation.

On the other hand, information that had _real_ relevance to the question of their intentions, like "Who is behind this project? Who is doing the engineering?" wasn't made available and is still unavailable (Hello Interesting!) or had to be sourced through some indirect channels (e.g. Ian Steadman).

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@AV
Quote:

AV wrote: @number6 Quote: (2)The developer has already responded in this thread. Where ? As far as I can see there is no post from any developer of said hardware in this thread.

That's exactly what also I was thinking when reading #2. If there is in fact a post by a developer and this wasn't clear to the majority of readers, then this is yet another example of bad communication (or a communication that is only done to some elitist persons through inofficial channels).

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@AV

Post #160 I think, but I could be wrong.

www.ati-innovations.com

Alternative Holdings Group Srl

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@JurassicC

Quote:

Post #160 I think, but I could be wrong. www.ati-innovations.com

Looks promising.

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now you make silence and waits for please!!

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