@samface

Quote:

Quote: It takes either a fool or a core dev to see big differences. Nope, just common sense. Names are used for differentiating things that would otherwise be easy to be confused with each other if we used the same terminology.

By definition, if the only thing that differentiates them is their name, then they are the same... How did you come up with such a self-defeating argument?

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@AMiGR

But FFS, stop trying to define things by the subjective point of views of individuals. Backwards compatibility is secondary in the context of what defines an OS as the successor to another. A successor could in theory be completely incompatible with it's predecessor and still be an official successor. What criterias you or anyone else has when shopping for a new OS is completely irrelevant.

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@AMiGR

Of course there is no reason to give different names for things that are the same. However, I explained earlier what makes these operating systems differ and therefore we should use different names.

Update: Mind you, even twins are given different names so please don't start with me about things that looks, walks and sounds like a duck again. Thinks that may be confused due to appearances are even more important to be differentiated in terminology.

Last edited by samface on 27-Nov-2006 at 03:22 AM.
Last edited by samface on 27-Nov-2006 at 03:17 AM.

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Quote:

Yeah, I've heard this mantra before, but I still fail to see, for example, how it would be benefitial for the AmigaOS if MorphOS would become a huge commercial success (like that would ever happen). On the contrary, I do think that would leave the AmigaOS with a stronger competitor and less of a chance to survive which in the end would leave us consumers with one alternative less to choose from.

That's where is your failure... if history has show anything was on how the clones helped expanding the IBM PC brand (from where 95% PC happens to derivate) ...

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Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@IonMane

I think you're missing the point in regards to BBRV and a license to run AmigaOS 4 on an EFIKA or PEG. Why would BBRV wast his time and money to obtain an OS4 license for Genesi hardware when it isn't necessary? The PEG is perfectly capable of running OS4 applications without the need for OS4 and the EFIKA will be equally capable when the MorphOS team gets the EFIKA version of MorphOS finalized. MorphOS is also able to run previous versions of AmigaOS software too.

The thing that I find most ironic is that Genesi hardware and MorphOS are here now and have a proven track record, but so many people keep waiting (and whining) around for modern hardware on which to run OS4, but it simply won't happen. I've waited for 2+ years for "modern" hardware to run my Amiga applications before realizing that there's only one place to obtain it....Genesi...My PegII arrived a few weeks ago and I'm more than pleased with it and with MorphOS.

It isn't the OS that is so important. It's about the applications. I don't care what the OS is called or who writes and markets it as long as it runs my applications. It seems that too many people have an emotional attachment to the brandname "Amiga". Forget it people. Commodore and Amiga died a long time ago and anyone using the Amiga trademark for current hardware and software products, at best, simply misleading a large portion of the Amiga community. At least Genesi is delivering hardware and software now. You can't say that about any of the other players in the Amiga community.

I'm sure this post will offend the Amiga "brandname zealots" but I don't care. Let the flaming begin.

@pixie

Quote:

That's where is your failure... if history has show anything was on how the clones helped expanding the IBM PC brand (from where 95% PC happens to derivate) ...

What made the IBM-PC clone market a success was Windows, nothing else. With different operating systems, except for AROS, all of them tied to their own set of proprietary hardware standards, it simply won't be the same thing.

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Quote:

A successor could in theory be completely incompatible with it's predecessor and still be an official successor. What criterias you or anyone else has when shopping for a new OS is completely irrelevant.

Well.. funny isn't it... it has all to do with stamping... but Amiga wasn't born yesterday you know, it isn't black and white as you put it.

I know, Amiga could be sh|t and still be Amiga, but those who know better would knew that could happen to be a new tech that resemble more the technology then the actual owner...

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Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@pixie

So, you're basicly saying that you would arbitrariy call anything that in your mind is "better" an Amiga? Right, gotcha.

Correction: you're saying that what once defined the Amiga as an Amiga cannot even be changed by the Amiga itself since the Amiga is not what defines an Amiga as an Amiga, or something along those lines...

Last edited by samface on 27-Nov-2006 at 02:56 AM.

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

If you said it was DOS... but at the time I can assure you that when one talked about a PC it wasn't talking on DOS... but the IBM brand,expanded trough PCs

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Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@pixie

DOS or Windows, different names, same same...

In any case, another factor involved is product demand. Where do we find enough product demand to make the Amiga market profitable and even sustainable for alternatives to make a living?

Last edited by samface on 27-Nov-2006 at 03:01 AM.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@ferrels

I'll tell you why, because some people have chosen AOS4 as the thing they wish to support, and for him to be able to sell them that hardware he must have AOS4 and hence the license. If he doesn't, the WTH is he even doing here?

The thing I find ironic is people who, ike yorself just have, deny any real intrest in AOS4 the hardware or anything else but habitate in an Amiga communty. Why? whats wrong with the genesi morphos centric sites? What is here that can offer you anything if morphos has everything to offer? Why do you feel such a need to convince us that your choice is better? Why must you call us zealots when the thing that is different is merely that our choice is different to yours?
What do you get out of heckling us and insulting us with that "zealot" term?
If the brand name is so unimportant, and means nothing, then why do people get so riled up when they are told that thier alternative is not an Amiga?

I tell you why i think it is: Amiga does mean something, everyone wants thier Amiga but thier Pride just wont allow them to accept what they have isn't it. They want "thier choice" to be the Amiga and they simply cannot handle the fact that it isn't. So they are forced by thier pride, to deride those that do follow the Amiga, the official amiga, who's very existance denies them that ability, that right, and never can they honestly say "I have the true successor"

Of course I could be wrong, but then, please tell me the answers to my questions, I would love to understand it.

Genesi delivers nothing, the just package and resell someone elses product.

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@ferrels

Excuse me but... what killer Amiga apps are you talking about that you cannot be without and that isn't available for other platforms in one way or the other? C'mon, today it's ALL about either the OS or the hardware when you're freaky enough to get such an exotic and not-supported-by-any-modern-software computer as the Amiga.

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Quote:

But FFS, stop trying to define things by the subjective point of views of individuals. Backwards compatibility is secondary in the context of what defines an OS as the successor to another. A successor could in theory be completely incompatible with it's predecessor and still be an official successor. What criterias you or anyone else has when shopping for a new OS is completely irrelevant.

I will ask you the following question: What the hell are you doing here? I mean, for xyz reasons, we're here, because we stuck with the Amiga, because of certain software, features of the OS, etc. You only seem to care about what the *official definition* of the OS is and not what it does. Newsflash, no-one cares what an OS is called if it does not do what they want it to do, this community exists BECAUSE we stuck with AmigaOS and its applications, meaning that for AmigaOS to get ANY sales, it needs to be compatible with its predecessors until it gets enough applications to replace the old ones.

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@IonMane

I'm not trying to convince anyone that my choice is better. I'm just making a point that right now there is only one choice. You can't buy OS4 and you can't buy hardware to run OS4, so right now there's only one choice. I'm not saying that it's for everyone. Maybe I'll regret not waiting and being more patient for OS4 and new hardware, but given the past track record of the hardware and software players in the Amiga community, I doubt it. My PEG is new and it runs OS4 applications now.

I'm sorry if you feel that I'm trying to insult you with the term Amiga "brandname zealot". It wasn't directed at you. But I've been on this site long enough to know that we indeed do have zealots here that don't want anything to do with new hardware and/or software unless the name "Amiga" is somehow tied to it. Those types don't even seem to realize that Commodore Amiga died a long time ago and won't be coming back from the dead. They're still blinded by a brandname that died many years ago and they let it blind them to any logic. It's analgous to MS-DOS users who refuse to run their DOS applications on any other DOS exccept the one produced by Microsoft. Doesn't that sound a bit ridiculous? Who cares if the DOS was made my Microsoft or IBM? It runs DOS apps and it runs them well. That's what matters. Not who wrote it or the name attached to it. It's all about price versus performance and availability. That what drives any market including the Amiga market. And right now there's only one market.....Genesi. The other players have so far proven to be inept or incapable of delivering a viable product....plain and simple. I certainly hope the other players can get their act together and give Genesi some competition to drive down prices and improve quality and performance, but I'm not too optimisitic based on history.

@samface


I didn't say anything about killer apps. I have a large investment in Amiga software, both in money and in time. It took a lot of time to become proficient in some of the applications and I simply refuse to throw them out and buy PC or Mac applications that do the same thing. Plus, I'm and old dog and I don't want to learn any new tricks. The ones I know serve me quite well right now


If it was about killer apps, I wouldn't even be on this site. I'd be on the latest killer app site and the system and the OS would be immaterial.

@AMiGR

Because unlike you, I have realized the importance of the trademark and the successrate of the official path. I look beyond my own personal preferences in the products, the Amiga has failed to live up to any modern standards since many years anyway. C'mon think, what's a clone worth if the product it's attempting to clone is not even capable of sustaining a profitable market for itself? Do you recognize the fact that the successrate of the official path, regardless of your own personal preference about the products, directly affects the entire Amiga market, including the competition and third party products?

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@ferrels

Ah, ok. That's an entirely different story. I must say, pretty bold investment.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@ferrels

You know what, you are right, the Amiga is dead.
Used to be a cutting edge machine that did things nothing else could do for the joe everyman. It aint that anymore.
Used to have an OS that was far advanced easy to use, it isn't that anymore
Used to have a tolerant united community brought together by the uniqueness that was the Amiga.Thats gone
Being an amigan was something you could be proud of.Well, thats well and truely gone too.

What have we got now, over price and under powered variants with no special features running an OS supported by a bunch of intolerant bigots who cant bear that someone dares disagree with them. A pretend OS that is nothing specal and way behind the curve, the real OS you cant get hold of for hardware that isn't produced, and a community that constantly gives you #### for standing up for what you believe in.
Yup, I am really proud of the whole deal...NOT.

I really wanted to help Amiga get back to what it was, but now after all these years I can see it is just not worth it.

Feel proud guys, you just reduced your tiny customer base by one more, I just don't give a #### about this farce that calls itself Amiga anymore, its just not worth the trouble.

Well Done.

The Amiga is Dead, Long live the Amiga

Last edited by IonMane on 27-Nov-2006 at 03:41 AM.

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@samface

It's a fine line between bold and stupid. I suppose that time will tell me which side of the line I'm on! I hope I don't end up on the stupid side!

@IonMane

Dude, I couldn't agree with you more. It's really sad. And the Amiga community (at least on this site and Amiga.org) seems especially quick to flame someone for even the most benign posts.