@ferrels

I sincerely hope so too.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@IonMane

Sadly enough, that sums up our current situation pretty good.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Quote:

Good for them. What has this got to do with creating a sustainable market for the Amiga?

If the Amiga partners were actually fully functioning and making real market efforts, and if the Efika with MorphOS were to find some niche and sell in sustainable numbers, it would indicate that such niche products are, in general, viable and AmigaOS might be able to find a niche of its own.

But given the apparent stance/capability of the Amiga partners, I don't think Efika has any meaning at all. It's just one more train that's left the station.

Quote:

More alternatives from different manufacturers means more competition and a tougher market to survive for everyone, period.

True. If both AmigaOS and MorphOS were available for Efika, for example, then it'd come down to customer requirements, OS support, etc., just as in any other market where a choice is available. I think the value of Efika/MOS to Amiga is only at the beginning, where Efika/MOS could show that there is a market for this kind of product. After that, it's nothing but competition.

Quote:

To get back to the issue of the EFIKA, I fail to see how it could possibly do anything for the Amiga market.

I think, in the present circumstances, its irrelevant. For it to have "positive meaning" would mean Amiga, Inc. was receptive to the possibility of it running Amiga OS, or to have a product that could be a follow-on to the Efika/MorphOS proof of concept; for it to have "negative meaning" there would have to be an AmigaOS product competing with it. Given neither of these, Efika really is irrelevant.

-- gary_c

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zukakakina.com - themes.tikiwiki.org

@gary_c

For some reason, the whole idea of a clone showing the path for the future of what it is attempting to clone seems absurd and a bit far-fetched as an argument. Besides, Amiga Inc. doesn't produce hardware nor decide how any Amiga "enabled" hardware is supposed to be marketed. Although, they probably do take the intentions of the hardware manufacturer into consideration when deciding which hardware alternative to grant an AmigaOS4 license or not. It would be stupid to make such mistake as they did with Thendic again.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Quote:

Because unlike you, I have realized the importance of the trademark and the successrate of the official path. I look beyond my own personal preferences in the products, the Amiga has failed to live up to any modern standards since many years anyway. C'mon think, what's a clone worth if the product it's attempting to clone is not even capable of sustaining a profitable market for itself? Do you recognize the fact that the successrate of the official path, regardless of your own personal preference about the products, directly affects the entire Amiga market, including the competition and third party products?

Sorry, this is the end of our conversation for the following fundamental difference between us:

I use products. I do not use trademarks.

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@AMiGR

Realizing the connection between products and trademarks and how they affect each other doesn't prevent you from using products. On the contrary, a strong brand is usually preceeded with really good quality products. It's just sad that you don't want to acknowledge this and look no further than to the currently available, overpriced hardware with software using many years old standards. Fine, suit yourself.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@IonMane
Quote:

The thing I find ironic is people who, ike yorself just have, deny any real intrest in AOS4 the hardware or anything else but habitate in an Amiga communty. Why?

You said it just there: because it's "an Amiga community." This isn't an "AOS4" community. As long as this site calls itself "an Amiga community" site and has the forums for all post-classic variants, work-alikes, or whatever, then people who are interested in any of these should be OK "habitating" here.

Quote:

whats wrong with the genesi morphos centric sites?

I think partly because the MorphOS community is still young and small and is a fresh start in a lot of ways, there aren't these broader, nontechnical topics. MorphZone defines its scope more narrowly, to MorphOS itself. If there was a "true Amiga(TM)" web site, I don't think I'd have much use for it, but Amigaworld.net is billed as an "Amiga Community Portal" and seems to want to be comprehensive, in spite of views such as yours. When members here say the community is only about AmigaOS4(TM) or something, then others who aren't into that but still think of themselves as part of "the community" want to say so. MorphZone doesn't claim to be anything other than a MorphOS site, so issues like this don't come up.

Quote:

If the brand name is so unimportant, and means nothing, then why do people get so riled up when they are told that thier alternative is not an Amiga?

No one gets riled up, as far as I know, when they are told that. In fact they agree. I don't think I ever read or heard a Pegasos owner claim that (when referring to the Peg) he/she has "an Amiga." In fact, the very opposite is true -- people are proud and happy to own a machine with its own identity. What riles people, I think, is when somebody says that alternative is second-rate or "a clone" for the sole reason that it doesn't have that trademark, when the MorphOS/Pegasos heritage is just as real and the experience just as good (or moreso).

Quote:

I tell you why i think it is: Amiga does mean something, everyone wants thier Amiga but thier Pride just wont allow them to accept what they have isn't it. They want "thier choice" to be the Amiga and they simply cannot handle the fact that it isn't. So they are forced by thier pride, to deride those that do follow the Amiga, the official amiga, who's very existance denies them that ability, that right, and never can they honestly say "I have the true successor" Of course I could be wrong, but then, please tell me the answers to my questions, I would love to understand it.

Not at all. I think people who grew up with Amiga computers and still have a passion about them and the kind of experience associated with them don't like hearing "yours doesn't have the Trade Mark so is not The True Successor". I think what galls people is that Bill & Fleecy & company got the VC to buy the Amiga IP and promptly pronounced Amiga desktop computing a dead end and turned to mobile phone games and players on Windows as the new Amiga experience, while bPlan and the MorphOS team were in fact and literally continuing and extending in all ways but trademark the Amiga computing experience, and yet are still called "clones" simply because they don't have the little sticker that Alan pressed on to "AmigaOne" boards after he and Hyperion persuaded Amiga, Inc. to let them compete with a PowerPC product.

Quote:

Genesi delivers nothing, the just package and resell someone elses product.

Are you serious? Much of the business in the world is nothing but packaging and reselling other companies' products, while adding value via promotion, distribution, etc. There is more to successfully manufacturing, promoting and selling a product that what happens in the fab or factory. If Genesi does its job right, then more Pegs/Efikas/ODWs or whatever get sold and everybody's happy. No wonder there are problems with understanding here if this basic process isn't clear.

-- gary_c

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zukakakina.com - themes.tikiwiki.org

@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @AMiGR Realizing the connection between products and trademarks and how they affect each other doesn't prevent you from using products. On the contrary, a strong brand is usually preceeded with really good quality products. It's just sad that you don't want to acknowledge this and look no further than to the currently available, overpriced hardware with software using many years old standards. Fine, suit yourself.

What currently available overpriced hardware are you referring to here??

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@gary_c

Gary, you're of course free to have any opinion you like, but please do realize that even if shared with many, anything that seems Amiga related to you is just that, your own subjective point of view. To be perfectly objective, as in even if you don't agree to the defintition of what is "Amiga", there is nothing wrong to refer to only official Amiga products and users exclusively when talking about the "Amiga community". I'm not saying that the term "Amiga community" would exclude anything nor am I interested in starting another of those debates, but you really can't use the term "Amiga community" as something to justify topics unrelated to the official Amiga(TM), ie the term doesn't *neccessarily* include anything beyond official Amiga products.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@wegster

When did you last hear about any Amiga hardware that was comparable in price and performance with anything in the rest of the computer industry?

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @wegster When did you last hear about any Amiga hardware that was comparable in price and performance with anything in the rest of the computer industry?

Trick question?

A500 before PCs were hitting their stride, then A1200.
Other than that, or some _parts_/upgrades...never.

But you said there was currently available hardware, which is what I was asking about? What's available?

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@wegster

Whatever AMiGR thinks of as "Amiga" hardware that is available to him.

Last edited by samface on 27-Nov-2006 at 05:28 AM.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Tsk, Samface.... you still didn't answer the direct question posed by wegster.

How do you 'know' it's over-priced if you don't even 'know' what you are referring to? How do you 'know' what AMiGR is referring to?

What is over-priced to one doesn't mean it is over-priced to another. Maybe that's the case with AMiGR?

_________________
¤¤ Official Hyperion Zealot ¤¤

(No, I didn't type that with a straight face.)

@Yo

How I know? Again, when was the last time you heard of any Amiga hardware that would be comparable in price and performance to anything in the rest of the computer industry? Wether it is still worth it's price to you is an entirely different issue on it's own.

Last edited by samface on 27-Nov-2006 at 05:55 AM.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Quote:

you really can't use the term "Amiga community" as something to justify topics unrelated to the official Amiga(TM)

Sure you can, with completely valid logic. If "Amiga community" is defined to include "Amiga-like" operating systems such as AROS and MorphOS, then the distinction vis-a-vis Amiga(TM) is irrelevant. And it seems this is the way the Amigaworld.net staff has chosen to define it.

Quote:

... the term doesn't *neccessarily* include anything beyond official Amiga products.

Of course not, nor does it necessarily preclude those things. What it includes depends on the context. Each of us has his/her own idea of what the scope of "the Amiga community" is. But problems arise when one person insists that his own definition is "true". I can go along with whatever the definition for this site is; if it changed to "related to Amiga, Inc. products only" I'd adjust. But if someone states an opinion that only the current "Amiga(TM)" products are true "successors", I believe there are valid arguments for a contrary opinion.

-- gary_c

Last edited by gary_c on 27-Nov-2006 at 06:25 AM.

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zukakakina.com - themes.tikiwiki.org

@Yo

BTW, sorry for going OT but... great blog! First you made me nod correspondingly about women at the top of the tree and then you made me really laugh out loud with the comment about men being like wine. It's so true, when a man finds the woman of his dreams, it's in hopes that she will never change. When a woman has found her man, it's in hopes of being able to change him into the man she always wanted. :)

Last edited by samface on 27-Nov-2006 at 06:23 AM.
Last edited by samface on 27-Nov-2006 at 06:20 AM.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@gary_c

It seems that you may be right about that, although I don't think that was always the case. This was started as a site exclusively for people interested in the official path, now wasn't it? Personally, I liked it better that way.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Oh dear.... well, we really don't do it on purpose, you know.....

Well..... ahem. Maybe a bit.

_________________
¤¤ Official Hyperion Zealot ¤¤

(No, I didn't type that with a straight face.)

@samface

Quote:

This was started as a site exclusively for people interested in the official path, now wasn't it?

Yes, I think that's right. Also at that time it seemed there was a real competition to win hearts and minds. But with circumstances as they are now, in terms of available products and so on, I feel there hasn't been any reason for that kind of arguing for quite a while now. So these arguments about definitions, etc., are just abstract and pointless.

-- gary_c

_________________
zukakakina.com - themes.tikiwiki.org

@Yo

Well, since time takes it toll on us all and men will always be men, neither the man nor the woman will ever get what they hope for anyway...

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)