@Skunkfish
Quote:

As for PS3 using its SPE's for graphics processing, I've first hand seen the rain-on-camera effect (using the SPE's) in F1: CE and it was jaw droppingly impressive..

Refer to http://ps3.qj.net/Quake-3-Arena-on-PS3-via-Fedora-/pg/49/aid/73945
for Quake 3 via Fedora/OpenGL and SPEs.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @Skunkfish Quote: As for PS3 using its SPE's for graphics processing, I've first hand seen the rain-on-camera effect (using the SPE's) in F1: CE and it was jaw droppingly impressive.. Refer to http://ps3.qj.net/Quake-3-Arena-on-PS3-via-Fedora-/pg/49/aid/73945 for Quake 3 via Fedora/OpenGL and SPEs.

Not a valid comparison, Q3 is using sw rendering only.

Of course, that still leaves the question of if/when either Sony or Nvidea will release a PPC Linux driver for RSX...

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@wegster

Quote:

Not a valid comparison, Q3 is using sw rendering only.

OpenGL is being done solely on SPEs.
Refer to http://www.ps3blog.net/2006/11/24/quake-3-on-linux-on-ps3

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Dec-2006 at 07:51 AM.

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@Hammer
Do you have a link or quote stating this? Comments there seem to indicate:
- It's only on the PPE
- It's only using a single SPE
??

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@wegster

Try running OpenGL-SW and Quake 3 on PowerPC 970 @2.5Ghz and on PowerPC 970 @1.6Ghz.

IPC wise, Cell's PPE is not strong as PowerPC 970 e.g. refer to Geekbench on PS3/Linux.

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Dec-2006 at 08:01 AM.

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@Hammer
Yeah, I saw the geekbench benchmarks, which are interesting, but that doesn't answer the original question- if OpenGL/Q3 is running on the PPE, a single SPE, or ?

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@wegster

Are you claiming PPE @3.2Ghz is stronger than PowerPC 970FX @2.7Ghz?

In PS3 Linux, 1 PPE and 6 SPUs are available for user applications. There’s a reason why Sony included nVidia’s G7x GPU...

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Dec-2006 at 10:02 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Dec-2006 at 09:23 AM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Are you claiming PPE @3.2Ghz is stronger than PowerPC 970FX @2.7Ghz?

I think the software OpenGL PS3 Linux Quake3 port only makes use of the PPE at this point. If it's faster it may be due to other technical differences, maybe the ultra fast XDR RAM plays a part in this.

Quote:

In PS3 Linux, 1 PPE and 6 SPUs are available for user applications. There’s a reason why Sony included nVidia’s G7x GPU...

The Cell is very different than usual processors. I can think of many reasons why they included a fast dedicated GPU as well, for instance you can do more by using both the Cell and RSX, sharing more workload, and this simplifies porting existing software not written to have SPE usage in mind.

Last edited by MikeB on 12-Dec-2006 at 11:04 AM.

@MikeB

Quote:

I think the software OpenGL PS3 Linux Quake3 port only makes use of the PPE at this point. If it's faster it may be due to other technical differences, maybe the ultra fast XDR RAM plays a part in this.

Refer to http://www.geekpatrol.ca/2006/11/playstation-3-performance/
For MacPro "Woodcrest" Xeon @3Ghz vs PPE @3.2Ghz
Note the memory operation benchmarks.

Refer to http://www.geekpatrol.ca/browse/2006/?view&id=4460
For Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU X6800 @ 2.93GHz benchmark reference.

Refer to the reasons on why GpGPUs uses GDDRx instead XDR i.e. factor in the latency.

Last edited by Hammer on 12-Dec-2006 at 11:37 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 12-Dec-2006 at 11:34 AM.

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@MikeB

Quote:

Good to see Microsoft now claim that 1080P games can be done

...better than on the ps3.

This is what he is meaning.

Microsoft never claimed that they cannot do 1080 (it is totally absurd, as it was so easy to enable and develop for it). The y jsut say they think that top games will never look as good as top games at 720.

So now that sony wanted to enter in the mud with that "My d¡ck is bigger because I can put more resolution" (even the graphics suck against 720), M$ answered saying "Ok let's give them their own medicine".

As I stated long time ago. there is nothing that cannot be done the same or better with the 360. Just that it is easier to develop for.

@Trezzer

Quote:

By that logic: If your favorite game was Leaderboard Golf on the C64, why should you bother upgrading? I still see your point, but personally it was a case of the games selling it - just like it was the case in earlier generations. If I see a game I want to play badly enough I'll get the machine to play it.

Is it really "by that logic"?

We're not talking about a mega-leap from Leaderboard. The new Tiger Woods is just small incremental improvements. The graphics are a novelty that wears off.

Don't get me wrong, I have a 360 and I enjoyed collecting those Ferraris!

The industry can't support itself unless it has something that matches the impact of games that have gone before. It's not about the enthusiasts like us. Those exclusive titles that MikeB talked about. Will GTA4 have the same impact as GTA3? What about Gran Turismo 5? Or Final Fantasy 12?

Does Gears of War feel like playing Goldeneye or even Halo for the first time?

Alot of people with very little interest in gaming own a PS2. If they don't buy a new machine in sufficient numbers next Christmas, the industry's in a spot of bother.

Chris

Last edited by clebin on 12-Dec-2006 at 02:09 PM.

@clebin

Indeed, Tiger Woods is just an incremental update, but that wasn't my real point either.

You can always find a genre that doesn't bring anything new to the table with new console generations and golf is probably one of the very best examples. Heck, you have pretty much the same game on a cell phone as on the big consoles save for the analogue controls.

As for Gears of War... that's a way bigger deal to me than Goldeneye ever was. I wouldn't put it next to Halo, because that's a one of a kind game to me.

I get your basic message: we need to see the power of the consoles put to good use to make people upgrade. But I'll dare to question that. After all... did the 16 bit generation really offer anything novel compared to the 8 bit generation? People still upgraded. Did the games really change that much from the first generation 3D consoles to the second generation 3D consoles? Not that damn much.

This generation mainly improves online capabilities, physics, AI and adds a touch of bling bling. The Wii mostly adds different controls while the graphics are only marginally better than last generation. Either way you look at it it's not earthshaking stuff. I was playing PGR3 the other day, and for a moment I forgot I was playing a game. I was entirely immersed in the game. Even though PGR3 is merely an incremental update to PGR2 it was enough to add that in spite of everything. It's the small things... reflections from your environments in the windshield, the dirt, the way the light breaks through the windshield while you're in ####pit view. It's all very subtle stuff, but I can say that I've never forgotten, that I was playing a game before. Not even for split second. This time I did though and that was kind of a magic moment to me.

It's been incremental updates all along and this generation is no different when it comes to that. But I don't doubt that people will pick it up anyway - all it takes is a system seller like Gears of War or Motorstorm. Well, it takes a lot of them obviously, because there has to be something for everyone.

As for the big franchises like Gran Turismo, Final Fantasy, Halo, KOTOR, Mario, Zelda etc. ... yes, I'm sure they'll move systems just as well as the versions before them. Each iteration gets more fans that are likely to buy the next version and the system to play it on.

In slightly related news: It'll be DS that gets the next Dragon Quest.

Last edited by Trezzer on 12-Dec-2006 at 03:31 PM.

What amazed me about that whole demo is that it was actually rendered at 2x1080p scaled down and anti-aliased on one core all under managed code.. Makes me wanna pick up a 360 and XNA Studio Express and play with it for myself. Until now I have not wanted one of these units. I think the content development system would be great to work with. I have done stuff with managed direct x before and that was pretty easy but when it comes to stuff involving 3d physics my brain kinda doesn't wrap around that stuff as easy..

I am curious to what garage games is doing.. Now all I need is one of these boxes with UAE running on the other core

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @wegster Are you claiming PPE @3.2Ghz is stronger than PowerPC 970FX @2.7Ghz? In PS3 Linux, 1 PPE and 6 SPUs are available for user applications. There’s a reason why Sony included nVidia’s G7x GPU...

I think you're misunderstanding me for some reason.

I asked for clarification as to what specifically OpenGL/Q3 was running on for that demo, the PPE, a SINGLE SPE, or other? So far, that hasn't been said definitively, as far as I can tell, so is likely not representative of the potential/capabilities of how well it MIGHT be able to run. That's all.

PS - And yes, the memory read operations are pretty poor on PS3 from the GB benchmarks.

Last edited by wegster on 12-Dec-2006 at 03:55 PM.

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@DonnieA2

I know! It made me feel like learning how to code right then and there. The $99 for a year doesn't seem unreasonable either considering what you get.

Note to me: baaah, read fool...

Mark

Last edited by Mark on 12-Dec-2006 at 05:47 PM.
Last edited by Mark on 12-Dec-2006 at 05:47 PM.

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@wegster

Quote:

I asked for clarification as to what specifically OpenGL/Q3 was running on for that demo, the PPE, a SINGLE SPE, or other? So far, that hasn't been said definitively, as far as I can tell, so is likely not representative of the potential/capabilities of how well it MIGHT be able to run. That's all.

There's no indication that it's anything other than PPE only at this stage - and likely not optimised.
Using the SPEs and optimised I'd expect it to run several times faster.

Quote:

PS - And yes, the memory read operations are pretty poor on PS3 from the GB benchmarks.

Stream usually shows what bandwidth a processor can deliver, in this case the results are not very good. Can't find a link but it's been measured at 19GB second which is a lot higher than the 970 has ever got.

Considering how the PPE really needs optimised stuff to work properly, the benchmarks so far are not that bad, even for general purpose stuff.

It's a similar story even with games, according to EA they're only using 20% of the processor's power so far.

--

There's an interesting (if short) piece on how the 360 and PS3 compare here from a developer who uses both.

If you really want to annoy a 360 fan show them this - ouch!

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@minator

Quote:

If you really want to annoy a 360 fan show them this - ouch!

How so? So people who aren't experts can't tell the difference. Big deal. Looking at screenshots it's pretty easy to tell the difference. When things are moving it can be more difficult, although you should still be able to notice things like texture quality etc. - but of course you have to know what to look for.

In fact they just state the obvious: the 360 compares more than favorably with the PS3 even though it's been out for a year longer, is much cheaper and has a better and larger selection of games. *shrug*

If they wanted to they could have chosen a display that doesn't support 1080p and see how well the PS3 would display the movies. At least they're on as favorable ground as the PS3 can get.

Last edited by Trezzer on 12-Dec-2006 at 07:08 PM.

@Trezzer

The leap from 8-bit to 16-bit was massive. Surely this is a given on AmigaWorld? As for 1st to 2nd gen - it wasn't such a big jump, but what I see is this cultural change.

I'm a little tired of the FPS genre, so it's possible I can't see the argument correctly. Perhaps the industry is doing everything it needs to do.

It could be fine to have Gears of War, Call of Duty, Splinter Cell, Ghost Recon, Rainbow 6, FEAR, Perfect Dark, Hitman, Prey, Far Cry, Condemned, Mass Effect, Halo and the many many others.

For me it's becoming very derivative and risk averse. While the games companies satisfy the demands of the hardcore users on their forums, and those games have the limelight, are they ignoring the bigger picture?

Chris

@clebin

Quote:

The leap from 8-bit to 16-bit was massive. Surely this is a given on AmigaWorld? As

But was it really? Think about it. Many of the same games even came out for both formats. We didn't see anything truly new because of the newer hardware. It was just prettier and bigger. Just like now. I think the big difference is that we're getting older and we've seen this shift before. That's also why it's a good thing that Nintendo are trying to go in a new and different direction. The DS almost rekindled my passion for games all by itself. Before it came out I was getting fairly close to calling it quits. Now that I'm back I want a bit of everything though and not just the new controls.

Regarding your FPS list, you've pretty much listed a lot of different genres that have the thing in common that they're viewed from a first/third person perspective. FPS is not a genre - it's a medium like any other.

Gears of War = co-op oriented third person shooter
Call of Duty = World War 2 shooter
Halo = sci-fi shooter
Mass Effect = sci-fi role playing game with tactical action elements
Condemned = up close and personal melee game with horror elements. Pretty much the scariest thing I've played this side of Project Firestart.
FEAR = Pretty much a horror film from an FPS perspective
Splinter Cell = third person stealth game
Ghost Recon = tactical and realistic modern urban warfare
... and so on and so forth.

They're not exactly the same game. There are those in there that appeal to me (Halo, Condemned, Mass Effect) and some I could barely care less about.

Quote:

For me it's becoming very derivative and risk averse.

You don't think the list above is pretty varied?

Quote:

While the games companies satisfy the demands of the hardcore users on their forums, and those games have the limelight, are they ignoring the bigger picture?

Are they, though? Game developers rarely rely solely on hardcore gamers. See games like Jade Empire and Fable for examples on how the traditional RPG is branching out to meet the less hardcore. The simplified controls of Gears of War is another good example.

Could more be done to reach other gamers? Certainly. That's what Nintendo is trying to do. Games like Viva Piñata could potentially also appeal to a new group of gamers. Guitar Hero, DDR and other bemani games also open up new avenues. There's sure to be something for everyone whether it's casual players or not.

But you can't please everybody all the time. There's gotta be something for the "hardcore" gamers and there's gotta be something for the casual gamers and everything in between. It's a good thing that we have choice and I think that the Wii will complement whichever console you pick nicely.

Last edited by Trezzer on 12-Dec-2006 at 07:49 PM.