@herewegoagain

That's correct. That's also why I see it as a bit of a stab in the back if OS4 is ported to PS3.

It can be a good thing but also a bad thing. These companies already have a lot of money invested in R&D - and they put them in there for us as well as themselves.

Preferably I'd like to see an entry level model Amiga, that's below the price of the PS3. It may not be possible at all, but for those who just want to try out the OS and isn't necessarily interested in having a huge console standing around for it an alternative like SAM or any of the others is good.

At the end of the day we have to ask ourselves: Do we want to depend on Sony to deliver hardware to us or would we rather have some of our own do it?

There are pros and cons to both.

@Trezzer

Quote:

Trezzer wrote: @herewegoagain That's correct. That's also why I see it as a bit of a stab in the back if OS4 is ported to PS3. It can be a good thing but also a bad thing. These companies already have a lot of money invested in R&D - and they put them in there for us as well as themselves.

First of all, I think you are completely wrong. Eyetech bought a off the shelf product and sold it for $100's of dollars over there cost. The Panda that actually runs is a UDTech board that in the configuration I have and Ssolie has can't be sold in the EU, if they have actually spent money on a redesign I haven't seen any proof and I dont think you have either. The SAM folks board is being designed for another effort, its only going to get OS4 if it makes sense for them and will make money, and I'm not holding my breath on any of them getting a license. Why do you think low power expensive hardware would be better then a cheaper G5 Mac or Cell based PS3?


Quote:

Preferably I'd like to see an entry level model Amiga, that's below the price of the PS3.

The problem is that the only unit cheaper then a PS3 is likely the Efika. Sam and a PS3 are going to be neck and neck, and the PS3 is light years ahead of it in power.

Quote:

At the end of the day we have to ask ourselves: Do we want to depend on Sony to deliver hardware to us or would we rather have some of our own do it? There are pros and cons to both.

I dont think there are pros to continuing to wait for hardware when the last AmigaOne was made 19 months ago now. With Sony, everyone on the planet can buy a PS3, buy the OS4 CD and they are ready to go. Every 2 or 3 hrs Sony sells more PS3s then the total A1's sold, thats a great thing, and basically they are cheaper then the AmigaOne, and lots more powerful. I'm sorry small low power expensive hardware is not the way to continue the Amigas legacy. But I'll tell you what, I'll put my money where my mouth is. IF OS4 gets ported to the PS3, I'll port the PPC modules for ImageFX to the SPEs, which should make it one of the fastest blue screening systems ever.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Trezzer

I will try to support any AmigaOS4 hardware I can. Personally I think they will have to distinguish themselves from the PS3 in some ways, for instance through hardware expansions currently not possible with the PS3, like in the past there was the Video Toaster for the classics and also through box design, like something that comes supplied in a nice Amiga box (Amiga logos etc, the Reality project comes to mind).

The only way I see a community hardware product become price competitive is through mass production, I think most likely this would be possible through selling to embedded customers.

Last edited by MikeB on 29-Jan-2007 at 10:09 AM.

@Trezzer

Quote:

Trezzer wrote: At the end of the day we have to ask ourselves: Do we want to depend on Sony to deliver hardware to us or would we rather have some of our own do it?

Funny you didn't also say "would we rather depend on some of our own...". ;)

We as AmigaOS users, as well as the AmigaOS producers, ARE dependent on that AOS4+ can be sold for hardware that as many people as possible can and want to buy. Anything else means failure.

Sony, along with most other mainstream hardware companies, constantly develop and sell such hardware. "Our own" do not, they just can't compete in price and performance. I believe that the number of prospective customers who care about price and performance when buying a piece of hardware far outnumber the people who give a second thought to things like "the designer/vendor used to have an Amiga" or "they name their product 'Ami-something'". I for one prefer a technical and commercial meritocracy over meaningless "Amiga-nepotism" when choosing hardware.

There aren't and won't be any more Amigas, so I just don't see the importance of a hardware vendor being "our own" or not. In case someone thinks this is an important factor when buying a lump of plastic, metal and silicon, then he could probably find a former Amiga user working for Sony, Asus, nVidia, Intel, et c. as well...

So yes, I'd much rather see AmigaOS for stable, continuously developed, affordable and widely available hardware from reputable companies with long experience and huge budgets, because that's what an OS from a small software-only company is dependent on.

Of course the compulsory hardware vendor licensing scam^H^Hscheme has to be dropped. Only being allowed to buy AmigaOS if we buy it bundled with e.g. a PS3 from Mike Bouma negates some of the most important advantages of running on 3rd party hardware in the first place. Someone has added dependencies and obstacles that shouldn't and needn't be there. We're back in the 1990s, depending on "special" hardware" from "special" vendors, even though there's nothing special (in a positive sense) about either of them. Should e.g. the PS3 prove to be a bad choice*, well then there can be no other option unless someone buys that meaningless licence for something else. Same thing when the PS3 (or whatever licensed hardware) inevitably becomes obsolete.

To rephrase your question:
At the end of the day we have to ask ourselves: Do we want to depend on good, cheap and available hardware, or would we want to add unnecessary dependencies on top of that first and obvious dependency?


* Though how could the PS3 possibly be anything but the best choice? I mean, in this thread I see lots of quotes from Sony and PS3 game producers who confirm it's a good choice and a safe bet! It comes from the horse's mouth, so it must be true. ;)

_________________
Oh, bother.

@Seehund

Quote:

At the end of the day we have to ask ourselves: Do we want to depend on good, cheap and available hardware, or would we want to add unnecessary dependencies on top of that first and obvious dependency?

I think you fail to see there may not be an AmigaOS4 today without help from Alan Redhouse and the AmigaOne as a development board. The old contract made sense for the development phase of AmigaOS4, contracts can later be re-negotiated.

The Mini-ITX AmigaOne board would have had potential as pointed out by the Ars Technica OS4 review, if the price would have come down due to mass production for embedded uses. But IMO at most that would have meant a few thousand extra AmigaOS4 users if Alan succeeded.

Now AmigaOS4 is done and can be demonstrated by Hyperion and/or Amiga Inc on AmigaOne hardware to potential partners and investors. IMO now is the time to re-negotiate.

IMO your past rantings against AmigaOS4 on every known website covering AmigaOS4's progress has not helped anyone (we did not witness a port to discontinued Pegasos products, like you hoped for, PPC Mac hardware was always a future option for Amiga Inc and still is), it will have zero effect on the re-negotiations currently taking place.

Last edited by MikeB on 29-Jan-2007 at 12:16 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 29-Jan-2007 at 12:15 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 29-Jan-2007 at 12:14 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

I will try to support any AmigaOS4 hardware I can. Personally I think they will have to distinguish themselves from the PS3 in some ways, for instance through hardware expansions currently not possible with the PS3, like in the past there was the Video Toaster for the classics and also through box design, like something that comes supplied in a nice Amiga box (Amiga logos etc, the Reality project comes to mind).

I agree. An Amiga could take the PS3 (design) beyond the console level. E.g. with RAM + expansion to 2GB, and replaceable GFX (but what bus currently supports 25GB/s ?). And an entry level machine, maybe with 512MB and nforce and a CELL-Light (which they might bring out sometimes in the future, the one with 1 or 2 or 4 spes).

But I am not really interested in anything else any more. That is kind of a pity. Time overran us (me). I don't think that will happen, though, the CELL based Amiga.

Last edited by Jorge on 29-Jan-2007 at 01:43 PM.

_________________
AmigaOne XE G3/933/VIA/FM801/R200 (fixed),
G3SE/600/Voodoo3/Sil680/RTL8139/SBLive! (noiseless!)
µA1-MK2/G3/933/R200/CMI8738
XE/G4 (broken 7450/800)

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Seehund Quote: At the end of the day we have to ask ourselves: Do we want to depend on good, cheap and available hardware, or would we want to add unnecessary dependencies on top of that first and obvious dependency? I think you fail to see there may not be an AmigaOS4 today without help from Alan Redhouse and the AmigaOne as a development board.

"Help from Alan"? Was that supposed to be in response to my post, i.e. about the hw licensing scheme?

In that case, I think you fail to see that you're just piling up logical fallacies. At least I hope you fail to see this, instead of simply not giving a damn and hoping nobody else sees.

Without Eyetech's "help" (the invention of the hw licensing scheme), there might not have been an AmigaOS4 as we see it today (i.e. pretty much not at all), that much is undeniably true. Instead, it might have actually been for sale for several viable hardware products for several years by now. But thanks to Alan's "help" AmigaOS is as dead now as it was 5 years ago, which is quite a feat by itself.

Quote:

The old contract made sense for the development phase of AmigaOS4, contracts can later be re-negotiated.

How did it make sense, ever?

Why do you say "old" contract? Can AmigaOS4 be developed and sold today for any hardware that Hyperion sees a demand for, without having to wait for a licensed hw vendor?

What do you mean by "development phase"? Is it somehow more appropriate to start out with making any chances for growth as small as possible at an early stage? And then, when the unlikely success magically has become reality and the OS might actually have become interesting for hw vendors to buy distribution licences for, THEN the licensing requirement should be dropped?

Yes, contracts can be re-negotiated. Duh! What do you think we have been nagging about for almost five years? Even better would have been if the current AmigaOS distribution scheme never had come to exist in the first place. This scheme has never been a good decision, and it doesn't become one just because it can be reverted!

Cutting off your hand doesn't "make sense" just because orthopaedic surgery has advanced enough to put it back on.

Quote:

The Mini-ITX AmigaOne board would have had potential as pointed out by the Ars Technica OS4 review, if the price would have come down due to mass production for embedded uses. But IMO at most that would have meant a few thousand extra AmigaOS4 users if Alan succeeded.

Sometimes I wonder if you actually believe everything you read, or if you're only trying to make others believe it. The funny adverticle that some guy posted on Ars is worth less as a basis to draw any conclusions from, than most of the praising quotes you have pasted in this thread about the PS3 are.

And I wonder how Mai selling Teron Minis to the Chinese would have noticably lowered Eyetech's "µ-A1" prices. It's not like Alan had tight profit margins on the boards he sold (at least 100 to 300 dollars gross margin per board!) or any development costs to recoup. Alan even seemed to take pride in alleging that he didn't order his boards together with Mai, or with Mai's other customers. If there hadn't been a compulsory hw licensing scheme to force us AmigaOS users to buy our hardware on an artificially separated market, then your speculation might have had some relevance.

BTW, which "embedded uses" warranting "mass production" would favour a mini-ITX motherboard with a PPC G3 over something else, anyway? I find the newfound popularity of the term "embedded" since the "AmigaOne" failure a bit curious.

Quote:

Now AmigaOS4 is done and can be demonstrated by Hyperion and/or Amiga Inc on AmigaOne hardware to potential partners and investors. IMO now is the time to re-negotiate.

Again, please explain the benefits that the existence of the current licensing scheme has provided since 2002. You know, since when "the new Amiga" was first publicly marketed, and then together with AmigaOS4 DPR. Is this yet another history revision session, along the lines of "'the new Amiga' was never meant to sell in more than 1300 units, it was just a 'developer board', AmigaOS4 was not meant for release until 2007, the lack of hardware licensees at the OS release is a stroke of genuine AInc/Eyetech genius..."? Or what?


Quote:

IMO your past rantings against AmigaOS4 [...]

IMO you should try to restrain yourself and cut down on the dishonest sleaze when you participate in public discussions. You know perfectly well that I have not ranted "against AmigaOS4".

Quote:

on every known website covering AmigaOS4's progress has not helped anyone (we did not witness a port to discontinued Pegasos products, like you hoped for, PPC Mac hardware was always a future option for Amiga Inc and still is),

Hey, you forgot to put "discontinued" in front of PPC Mac. ;)
Only PPC Macs sold by a dealer with an AInc license were ever an option for AmigaOS, as far as AInc are concerned. My "rantings" were not about the porting alone to new hardware, be it Macs or Pegs or Sams or whatever, and you know this as well. What I have been arguing against is the creation of a separate "Amiga market" for third party hardware.

"Has not helped anyone?" Help whom? Did you ask yourself this back when you did the same sickening agitprop for every desperate scam and fraud churned out by AInc/Eyetech as you have done in this thread for a certain game console?

This is the place where you'll make a "full disclosure" on your personal interest in promoting the PS3, right? Right?

Quote:

it will have zero effect on the re-negotiations currently taking place.

If you have something more than empty phrases to say, just say it. Details, please. Who? What? When? Where? Why? How? Of course, then you might be expected to be able to back up what you say.

One of the things which you already need to back up: Event X will have zero effect on Outcome Y.
I for one sure as heck hope that REALITY, i.e. the total failure of the licensing scheme, "AmigaOnes", and thus AmigaOS4 so far, which I and so many others predicted, warned for and complained about, will have a profound and drastic effect on any re-negotiations which you allege are "currently taking place". Otherwise re-negotiations would be pointless. "Let's do the same mistakes all over again, it was fun!"

_________________
Oh, bother.

@Tigger

Quote:

I'm sorry small low power expensive hardware is not the way to continue the Amigas legacy.

I think most people still identify the Amiga with hardware so it's natural to want a new version.
Unfortunately economics rules out anything radically better / faster / cheaper than the rest of the market, quite the opposite in fact.

Sam is I believe targeted at 400¤, once you add in case, HD and DVD drive the price will match or even exceed that of the PS3. To add insult to injury, even a "trivial" port of OS4 (i.e. not supporting SPEs) will run 5-10 times faster on the PS3.

Quote:

But I'll tell you what, I'll put my money where my mouth is. IF OS4 gets ported to the PS3, I'll port the PPC modules for ImageFX to the SPEs, which should make it one of the fastest blue screening systems ever.

Indeed, it sounds like a very "SPE friendly" app.

_________________
Whyzzat?

@Seehund

Quote:

"Help from Alan"?

Yes.

Quote:

Instead, it might have actually been for sale for several viable hardware products for several years by now.

Unlikely.

Quote:

cut down on the dishonest sleaze

Sadly more and more AmigaWorld sounds like Moobunny. Francis Charig and myself agreed Moobunny was full of people unable to behave, I thought he and he thought I were being treated unfairly by ignorant impolite zealots.

I can imagine any company not wanting to be connected with Moobunny types, Genesi excluded.

Quote:

I have not ranted "against AmigaOS4"

Amigans I have spoken to disagree. You were one of the topics of an AmiGBG afterparty and people there thought otherwise.

Seehund:

"AmigaOS will only ever be released for PPC hardware that the manufacturer or a dealer has acquired an AInc licence for to sell it bundled with AmigaOS!"

"Totally insane, and "guaranteed fatal for AmigaOS"

"the whole AmigaOS4 project is a complete waste of time, money and enthusiasm"

Why continue to waste your time on a guaranteed fatal project? Why not do something useful and focuss on AROS or MorphOS instead?

Last edited by MikeB on 29-Jan-2007 at 05:52 PM.

@MikeB

I have to say, this is some impressive partial quoting.

_________________

@AMiGR

If you prefer more context:

Seehund's input @ Slashdot Updated AmigaOS4 SDK Available:

Quote:

As you say, Amiga Inc in their infinite wisdom (or rather: incompetence, and disinterest in AmigaOS in favour of their PocketPC "strategy") decided that despite there not being any plans for new Amigas, you should have to buy a "new Amiga" anyway. I.e., AmigaOS will only ever be released for PPC hardware that the manufacturer or a dealer has acquired an AInc licence for to sell it bundled with AmigaOS! The only existing licensee is Eyetech, i.e. the same company that provided "consultation" when the scheme was invented, and so far they've only sold dysfunctional and outdated $500 Mai Logic Teron motherboards as $800 "Eyetech AmigaOnes". Yup, Macs would be the friggin' obvious target hardware for a PPC consumer OS, when the OS compan(y|ies) don't have any hardware of their own nor influence over hardware. But it's not allowed to happen, unless someone buys a licence to sell Macs bundled with AmigaOS plus something deceitfully and incorrectly referred to as "anti-piracy" measures, i.e. a dongle or similar that tells AmigaOS that you're running it on a Mac that you've bought on this artificially monopolised and miniscule pseudo-market. Same thing for the Pegasos 2, or whatever other current or future PPC hardware you could think of. Totally insane, and guaranteed fatal for AmigaOS, but that's the way it is right now.

BTW, the "dysfunctional" Terons were really expensive and you couldn't just go out and actually buy them.

I have used many AmigaOne systems together with AmigaOS4, they seem very functional to me. indeed overall I agree with Ars Technica's findings. Although the article was a bit more positive than if I personally would've written, listing more negatives.

IMO the AmigaOne served its use as a development board, AmigaOS4 has matured nicely and I am looking forward to its continued development. IMO to have mass availability of the beta pre-release could easily have resulted in logistical problems, support being completely overwhelmed by bug reports, complaints, etc and still the OS needs more polishment. The same of course goes with regard to MorphOS, the first thing Eugenia (an alt-OS expert) did when she received her Pegasos was to contact me with regards to all sorts of problems she ran into, I did my best as I wanted to read her findings. I also installed WinUAE/AmigaOS/AIAB for her on her PC when I was in California, as she received an older copy of Amiga Forever.

Personally I hope Seehund will be proven wrong, which is IMO entirely possible, hopefully this by having AmigaOS4 available for the Sony PS3, like Amiga Inc and Hyperion both stated publically they would like to see themselves.

Last edited by MikeB on 29-Jan-2007 at 09:46 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 29-Jan-2007 at 09:43 PM.

I am surely gonna get this PS2 game for my PS3:

New God of War 2 trailer:
http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=16571&type=mov&pl=game

I'm interested to see how far they have been able to push this 7 year old hardware. This looks really good, although I would prefer an option for having the two DVDs coming supplied on one Blu-Ray disc, as I wouldn't have to worry much about scratches and maybe they could have the interviews done in 1080p high def qualtiy.

I'll probably get this for my girlfriend:

Singstar for the PS3
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7639207254031643984&q=ps3&hl=en

@MikeB

Quote:

Let me make this clear, I would stay out of the lame 'XBox 360 vs PS3 wars', if not for the Cell and 'Other OS' support. IMO this has so much potential, the Amiga community cannot afford to ignore this.

Well, on that "other OS" part we agree. I'm not personally really looking for a gaming console to run any operating system other than the native gaming one, but I do think the Amiga community in general and the Amiga corporate partnership in particular should embrace any hardware opportunity that there is a market for (and drop the mandatory licensing scheme that never made any real-world sense).

PS3 might be a good platform for OS4.

@MikeB

Quote:

New God of War 2 trailer

!!! PS2?

_________________
ikir

@MikeB

Again, I see that you did not reply to any *points* of his post, just went personal instead, something you have been accusing others of doing in this very thread. I know that Seehund can be annoying, repeating himself all the time and shoving his opinion down people's throats, but up to now not many
of his points got proven wrong.

_________________

@thread


Where is the "Who cares" option for the poll ?

@AMiGR

Quote:

Again, I see that you did not reply to any *points* of his post, just went personal instead

I have, on multiple occasions including to some points in this thread. What "point" do you want me to address yet again?

Do you want me to look into my crystal ball, look into the future and tell you if he is right or wrong it was a mistake the AmigaOS4 project ever was started, that AmigaOS4 will die a sudden death, AmigWorld.net dies, the platform is already dead as he claims or something? And if I could, how would I know this wasn't due to self-fullfilling prohecies and doomsday thinking, rather than a real lack of potential?

My answer would still be, a definite "No!", it doesn't need to be all for nothing, even nomatter what happens in the future. People are already enjoying AmigaOS4 and it has been and still is fun for many people to follow the OS's progress. Without AmigaOS4 there may not have been AmiGBG shows these last couple of years, which Seehund himself also attended. A good example how the Amiga community as a whole benefits from AmigaOS4 efforts.

IMO if AmigaOS4 was to be ported to the PS3, the whole Amiga community could go through a revival. More people hearing about, checking out AmigaOS4 again may well result in increased Amiga interest overall, including more interest in what the classics were all about and what the clone efforts are about. For example I think AROS could benefit alot from AmigaOS4 being in the media spotlight again, Amiga Forever as well, etc.

Last edited by MikeB on 30-Jan-2007 at 02:13 PM.

@MikeB

You probably haven't been listening to him at all, or it could be that your partial quoting is *really* what you read out of his messages, instead of what you want to select out of it. He never meant that the AmigaOS4 project is a waste of time, his whole point is that the hardware licensing scheme is killing it, which is a *FACT* and one also mentioned by the OS4 developers on a few occasions. Who said anything about the lack of potential? What he's saying is that with this scheme, we're waiting for AmigaOS4 to get enough momentum to attract big hardware manufacturers ($500,000 per year revenue was the Amiga Inc number, isn't it?) with wishful thinking, by not allowing it to get any cheap hardware to kick start the operation in the first place... This is not something only Seehund has said, it's what TONS of people have said, including the one and only Dave Haynie. I'm not talking about universal hardware support here, that'd be too much to hope for, I'm talking about letting Hyperion port OS4 to whatever hardware they think will get them (and subsequently Amiga Inc.) profits.

_________________

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: BTW, the "dysfunctional" Terons were really expensive and you couldn't just go out and actually buy them.

No they weren't Mike, as you well know. In fact as you yourself reported on OSNews when talking about Terrasoft (when they were going to sell the boards), they were lots cheaper from Terrasoft then from Eyetech. Thats the article YOU WROTE. So lets get off the Terons were real expensive story of yours, and noone else could buy them. Noone else wanted to buy them, because they worked just as well as the one in my lab, ie poorly. Terrasoft and others abandoned the Teron boards, and everyone abandoned the MAI chipset, because it was flawed. Thats why MAI is out of business. Stop acting like Alan lost money on every unit, when you know that Terrasoft was going to be able to sell that boards for hundreds less then Alan did, and we know Alan wasnt paying $100's of dollars for OS4.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@AMiGR

I quoted exactly parts of his rantings I dislike in reply of the claim of never ranting against AmigaOS4.

I won't tell you what I know from behind the scenes discussions. But the original contract allowed AmigaOS4 to be developed, when Amiga Inc wanted to concentrate on doing business with the big boys. The current differences regard to other things, and actually the influx of cash into Amiga Inc, has actually complicated the situation between parties.

The old contract terms were good for the time, while heading towards completing AmigaOS4, the problem is how to go from there. This is where the current problem lies, and Amiga Inc wants to have more control over AmigaOS4.x and beyond.

For the record here, both sides how valid arguments. But one way or another they will have to work out any differences. This is what the involved parties have been dealing with.