@COBRA

Quote:

COBRA wrote: @Tigger You don't know how much the dealers got the boards for. Also add the price of OS4 which is over 100 EUR that was included.

Actually I do, several dealers were fairly vocal in the beginning about what they paid for the board, and I really hope that Hyperion didnt get 100 EUR for each copy of OS4 from Eyetech, but its possible, unlike the amount given to AI, its not in a contract we have seen.

Quote:

Also, pricing depends very much on the quantity of boards produced per batch.

I know Alan loves to tell stories about getting the boards made, etc, but what Alan really did, is buy boards from the guys that were making them for MAI, nothing else.

Quote:

Eyetech only produced a few hunderd boards per batch.

Eyetech didnt produce anything, lets get rid of that myth once again.

Quote:

Then there's the question of how much royalties Eyetech had to pay Amiga Inc. for each board sold (or if there were any additional licensing costs).

$25 a board according to the contract.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Tigger

Quote:

Tigger wrote: @fairlanefastback Quote: fairlanefastback wrote: How do you know Terrasoft was getting the boards at the same price as Eyetech? How much volume one deals in affects prices all the time, among other factors, perhaps with exchange rates, timing of purchases, import/export duties etc etc. I know Alan offered to match the Terrasoft price to try and steal a linux client from Terrasoft and given how the original orders were done, there wasnt alot of difference between the price Terrasoft was going to get and the price Alan paid.

What makes you choose the word "steal" out of curiousity?

How are you privy to "how the original orders were done"?

Quote:

As for the rest, I know all about those things, we make lots of motherboards for lots of different people.

Just because you are in a related business or field does not mean you will know all of the behind the scenes elements of what went on at Eyetech.

This seems to just go back to a recurring theme here that several people have pointed out. You present yourself as your own expert witness in law, engineering, business, programming etc to back up your own arguements when you have nothing else to reference.. But that doesn't make your claims factual, and it seems you are quite ok with presenting your opinion as fact.. If you said when it was just your opinion, or even your professional opinion in some cases that would be one thing. But I fail to see you having proven Alan was making $300 a board. And thats just one example of what we continually get from you. BTW I am looking forward to those expert programming skills, in the form of a very quick and bug free AROS native Efika port! Woot!

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 16-Aug-2007 at 01:36 AM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 16-Aug-2007 at 01:35 AM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

What makes you choose the word "steal" out of curiousity?

Can't answer for Tigger but it does not seem nefarious to me. Just used as the common expression ie. "Apple would like to steal customers from Microsoft".


Quote:

Just because you are in a related business or field does not mean you will know all of the behind the scenes elements of what went on at Eyetech.

He is/was "in the know" alot more than he let on in the past. Just because he did not post "something big is coming ,I can't tell you now but it is big" all the time does not mean he was not in the loop.


Quote:

BTW I am looking forward to those expert programming skills, in the form of a very quick and bug free AROS native Efika port! Woot!

I guess you forgot the smiley

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: @Tigger [quote] Tigger wrote: @fairlanefastback What makes you choose the word "steal" out of curiousity?

Would Poaching have been a better word for you?

Quote:

How are you privy to "how the original orders were done"?

Because MAI was the original source for the PPC bridge for the JSF effort, lots of groups working the JSF effort had Teron boards, as I've said before I have 3 of them in one of my lab cabinets and about 50 or so Articia's left. Of course thats what led to MAI being put out of its misery.

Quote:

Just because you are in a related business or field does not mean you will know all of the behind the scenes elements of what went on at Eyetech.

I dont have to know what went on behind the scenes at Eyetech, implying Terrasoft got the boards for $350 (or more) cheaper is silly. In addition, Alan claimed several times that he got better pricing then anyone else from MAI because of his close working relationship with them. Now you guys say thats not true, Terrasoft got a better deal.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Tigger

Quote:

I dont have to know what went on behind the scenes at Eyetech, implying Terrasoft got the boards for $350 (or more) cheaper is silly. In addition, Alan claimed several times that he got better pricing then anyone else from MAI because of his close working relationship with them. Now you guys say thats not true, Terrasoft got a better deal.

I didn't say that Terrasoft got them cheaper. I was asking what made you determine beyond any doubt in your mind that it must be that Alan got them specifically for $300 cheaper. You are the one claiming who got what cheaper and specifically for how much. I simply asked how you obtained these facts which turned out to be a guess on your part.

As for any other guess being determined by you as silly (and I made no guess either way) thats your own business. But you don't show much to substantiate that your guess is that much less "silly" than anyone else's so far.

Quote:

Because MAI was the original source for the PPC bridge for the JSF effort, lots of groups working the JSF effort had Teron boards, as I've said before I have 3 of them in one of my lab cabinets and about 50 or so Articia's left. Of course thats what led to MAI being put out of its misery.

I have no idea what the JSF effort was. What does it have to do with being privy to how Terrasoft and Eyetech negotiated pricing on particular orders from the manufacturer?

Quote:

Would Poaching have been a better word for you?

I don't know, I was curious if you were giving "steal" a negative connotation or not. I'm guessing from your offered replacement word you were giving it a negative connotation. If you don't think highly of Alan's business practices I take it then, why believe it when he said he definitely got the lowest price on boards? He is honest in things he said when it suits your argument? I don't know much of anything about what Eyetech did outside of the Amiga market, so I was honestly asking what you meant by usage of the word.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 16-Aug-2007 at 03:13 AM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 16-Aug-2007 at 03:12 AM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 16-Aug-2007 at 03:11 AM.

_________________
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Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@stew

Quote:

He is/was "in the know" alot more than he let on in the past. Just because he did not post "something big is coming ,I can't tell you now but it is big" all the time does not mean he was not in the loop.

Apparently you know more about Tigger's background than I do but you seem to assume I may have similar knowledge about his background as you do. Besides the talk about that he works for some government contractor on the Osprey I don't know much else. So if there is some bit of background info that will shine a new perspective on things I'm all for being clued in on that. :)

Quote:

I guess you forgot the smiley

Nope. Tigger has talked up quite a bit his programming abilities next to some others in the Amiga arena. And I'm not saying I doubt them. Indeed I am taking him at his word, and based on that word I see no reason to expect anything less.

_________________
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Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@COBRA

Quote:

Also add the price of OS4 which is over 100 EUR that was included.

Don't you guys ever read the damn court documents? It's not like Evert Carton hasn't come out and stated precisely how much the OEM version of OS4 was (and no, it was not "over 100 Euro")...

Quote:

Then there's the question of how much royalties Eyetech had to pay Amiga Inc. for each board sold (or if there were any additional licensing costs).

This, too, has been covered quite unambiguously by the court documents. In fact, I reckon the answer to *that* question has probably been shown half a dozen times --- it is, after all, in the original 2001 contract.

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

I didn't say that Terrasoft got them cheaper. I was asking what made you determine beyond any doubt in your mind that it must be that Alan got them specifically for $300 cheaper. You are the one claiming who got what cheaper and specifically for how much. I simply asked how you obtained these facts which turned out to be a guess on your part.

I didnt say he got them cheaper, I'm assuming he got them at the same price as Terrasoft, he SOLD THEM at $300 more then Terrasoft, do you understand that now. If he really got a better price then Terrasoft, (as he has claimed) then he made even more then what I claimed.

Quote:

I have no idea what the JSF effort was. What does it have to do with being privy to how Terrasoft and Eyetech negotiated pricing on particular orders from the manufacturer?

Joint Strike Fighter, technically its now the F-35. It has to do with having more then a little working knowledge of MAI, how the MAI test boards (ie Terons) were made and how the chip was flawed as we and Kaiser and Rockwell and Lockheed (and a whole slew of other JSF manufacturers) found out.

Quote:

I don't know, I was curious if you were giving "steal" a negative connotation or not.

I think if somone negotiates a contract and you find out about it and go in and offer the same price but say you will provide better support (Alan providing better support, lets laugh about that for a minute) that you are attempting to steal a client instead of actually going out and finding your own.
-Tig

Last edited by Tigger on 16-Aug-2007 at 02:07 PM.

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Tigger

Quote:

do you understand that now.

Do you understand it now that I did not say that Terrasoft got them cheaper, you know, when you lumped me in with some supposed "you guys" that was supposedly saying that?

Quote:

Joint Strike Fighter, technically its now the F-35. It has to do with having more then a little working knowledge of MAI, how the MAI test boards (ie Terons) were made and how the chip was flawed as we and Kaiser and Rockwell and Lockheed (and a whole slew of other JSF manufacturers) found out.

This just further illustrates that you likely don't actually know the details of any pricing obtained by either Terrasoft or Eyetech. This is just another wild tangent to go off on. You provided this as an answer to illustrate how you know what deals Terrasoft and Eyetech made to explain how you know what pricing each obtained. How does this show that at all?

Quote:

I think if somone negotiates a contract and you find out about it and go in and offer the same price but say you will provide better support (Alan providing better support, lets laugh about that for a minute) that you are attempting to steal a client instead of actually going out and finding your own.

Did you work for Eyetech, or the other contract bidder, or the client? If not how are you sure that Alan tried to do something underhanded vs. this just being a matter of a client choosing who they thought was the best vendor offering the better contract deal?

_________________
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Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: [quote] This just further illustrates that you likely don't actually know the details of any pricing obtained by either Terrasoft or Eyetech.

Actually it does quite the opposite given the way the boards were certed to the JSF crowd.

Quote:

Did you work for Eyetech, or the other contract bidder, or the client?

The client.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Tigger

Quote:

Actually it does quite the opposite given the way the boards were certed to the JSF crowd.

Certification to the "JSF crowd" included telling the "JSF crowd" how much each non JSF crowd customer paid for each of their board batch orders? Is that what you are saying? That in your F-35 related certification process for MAI as a vendor your firm forced MAI to reveal details on prior business dealings that had nothing to do with your firm (is this what you are trying to say?)? Honestly its really not clear how this "JSF crowd" would know how much Terrasoft paid vs. how much Eyetech paid. Saying it makes you an expert on the board's technical aspects I could get but how or why any company you worked for would know what other company's secured pricing level was you still don't substansiate. Why not just substantiate it with details if you have any?

Quote:

The client.

Ok well at least you were maybe close to the deal then. Though I'm not clear on how competing in business by offering your own quote for service is poaching/stealing. Who won the business in the end? And who do you think would have given the better support (since thats what you said Alan was offering) out of curiosity?

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 16-Aug-2007 at 04:51 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: Certification to the "JSF crowd" included telling the "JSF crowd" how much each non JSF crowd customer paid for each of their board batch orders? Is that what you are saying?

Bascially MAI had to prove that the price presented to the JSF crowd was the same or better then the price presented to there 3 lowest clients. Thats not unusual at all with a US government contract btw, thats why things like Terrasoft and Eyetech paid virtually the same is pretty damn easy for me to say.

Quote:

Ok well at least you were maybe close to the deal then. Though I'm not clear on how competing in business by offering your own quote for service is poaching/stealing.

Because thats not what they did, what they did was found out Terrasoft was looking at buying x boards from MAI for a client, figured out who the client, called up the client and offered to match the price and said they could provide better service.

Quote:

Who won the business in the end? And who do you think would have given the better support (since thats what you said Alan was offering) out of curiosity?

Terrasoft's website lists lots of happy customers (including Lockheed and Boeing), Eyetech doesnt provide service on broken boards or even service the warranties, so its not a comparison at all. Terrasoft won, but the customer eventually went with Terrasoft product on mac hardware instead of the Teron boards, as most on here know, Terrasoft ended up finding the Teron boards performed too poorly to be sold by the company.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

And who do you think would have given the better support (since thats what you said Alan was offering) out of curiosity?

Most definitely Terrasoft, they have been in this business for ages.

_________________

@Tigger

I appreciate your responses Tigger.

So you know what a MAI low price was for sale to the government. Next question is did the low price match or beat the 3 lowest clients. If it beat it, is it known by how much. If it matched is it verifiably known by you if Terrasoft or Eyetech was one of the 3 lowest clients. I understand now after discussing it further how you know what the lowest price could be at the time, but want to see how you are sure exactly what Eyectech was paying for sure and what price purchase tier they were on from MAI. If you can answer that I can see how you might have come up with the $300 profit per board thing.

Quote:

Because thats not what they did, what they did was found out Terrasoft was looking at buying x boards from MAI for a client, figured out who the client, called up the client and offered to match the price and said they could provide better service.

BTW did you work for a goverment client of MAI or a client of Terrasoft selling MAI equipment (or both)? The reason I ask is you say you have an idea of what Eyetech and Terrasoft paid since MAI had to give your F35 crowd a bid but then you also say you worked for the company that Terrasoft was courting that Eyetech tried to steal a deal on. It would seem odd that you would be dealing with a middle-man who you knew exactly what they were paying because at one time you were dealing instead with MAI direct.

_________________
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Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: If it matched is it verifiably known by you if Terrasoft or Eyetech was one of the 3 lowest clients.

Match, and both companies were on the list, thats why I'm correct within a few dollars, throw in we know what Eyetech sold the boards at and what Terrasoft was going to sell the boards at and we have a pretty good picture here.

As for the rest of the comment. Boeing buys lots of stuff from Terrasoft, they were looking at getting the Teron boards because they were cheaper then the mac stuff and had the Articia on them. The Boeing contracts guy does the V22 system as well, during the burn MAI to the ground phase of JSF, they told me about Alan calling, and since they guy does a pretty good imation of Alan talking, I'm real sure he really talked to him.
-Tig

Last edited by Tigger on 16-Aug-2007 at 11:24 PM.

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Tigger

Aside from the $150 dollars which went straight to the VAT man, plus S&H from the US to the UK, plus $25 to Amiga, plus $?? to Hyperion, plus $?? to the dealership...

So, $300 difference - $150 -$25 = $125

Not much to split between the dealers and Hyperion really (neglecting intercontinental S&H).

And beyond that $300 we're assuming that Eyetech's (small operation) overheads were of a similar level to Terrasoft's, so that Adam had something left above the bottom line to fund Eyetech with.


EDIT: typos and incomplete post. When will I learn to put the damn letters in the right order.
EDIT: Grammar.

Last edited by Boot_WB on 16-Aug-2007 at 11:33 PM.
Last edited by Boot_WB on 16-Aug-2007 at 11:32 PM.
Last edited by Boot_WB on 16-Aug-2007 at 11:31 PM.

_________________
Troll - n., A disenfranchised former potential customer who remains interested enough to stay informed and express critical opinions.
opp., the vast majority who voted silently with their feet.

@Boot_WB

OEM price of OS4 was IIRC £30-£40. I haven't got access to the invoice at the moment so I can't give an exact figure.

@Rob

Let's assume £30 to be generous, and call it a $50 exchange rate to be even more generous.

So that leaves $70 to split between the dealers, and any additional costs incurred by Eyetech as a result of 1) running a smaller scale business and 2) having a greater invovement in the development of the OS and promotion of the hardware.

Not quite $300 in the back pocket for Alan now really is it?

_________________
Troll - n., A disenfranchised former potential customer who remains interested enough to stay informed and express critical opinions.
opp., the vast majority who voted silently with their feet.

@Boot_WB

Quote:

Boot_WB wrote: @Tigger Aside from the $150 dollars which went straight to the VAT man, plus S&H from the US to the UK, plus $25 to Amiga, plus $?? to Hyperion, plus $?? to the dealership... So, $300 difference - $150 -$25 = $125 Not much to split between the dealers and Hyperion really (neglecting intercontinental S&H). And beyond that $300 we're assuming that Eyetech's (small operation) overheads were of a similar level to Terrasoft's, so that Adam had something left above the bottom line to fund Eyetech with.

There is so many problems with your analysis above, I'm not sure its fixable. You seem to want to argue about this and dont have any numbers, so you are adding VAT which isnt charged to a dealer and which isnt part of the prices I used, shipping from the US to the UK (for what I have no idea) since the boards werent made or shipped from the US. I'm sure Terrasoft would have made money on the boards as well, the make money on very piece of hardware they sell, and they actually provide warranties. And in reality it doesnt matter if Eyetech made $312 more per unit then Terrasoft (as I think) or $260 or whatever, they made money on the boards, thats what the point is, this crazy concept I was answering that they did it for the love of community is silly. You ever actually look at Alan's prices for common items and then seriously say that?
-Tig

Last edited by Tigger on 17-Aug-2007 at 05:23 PM.

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Tigger

Quote:

Match, and both companies were on the list, thats why I'm correct within a few dollars, throw in we know what Eyetech sold the boards at and what Terrasoft was going to sell the boards at and we have a pretty good picture here. As for the rest of the comment. Boeing buys lots of stuff from Terrasoft, they were looking at getting the Teron boards because they were cheaper then the mac stuff and had the Articia on them. The Boeing contracts guy does the V22 system as well, during the burn MAI to the ground phase of JSF, they told me about Alan calling, and since they guy does a pretty good imation of Alan talking, I'm real sure he really talked to him. -Tig

I think you've given some fair justification now. I appreciate it. So were you the only Amiga fan in the JSF crowd BTW? Funny you bumping into Alan not only as an Amiga user but as a defense contract worker! lol

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200