@number6

I don't understand this last document.. Extended for how long? Isn't there supposed
to be a end date for how long the court has to wait for Amiga Inc.?
It states extended to 30 July 2007. But this date has already gone by..

Last edited by Samwel on 23-Aug-2007 at 01:00 AM.

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@number6

Maybe there should be two separate threads, this one for the NY case as stated and another one for the Washington case ?

IMHO

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Woon

@woon

Quote:

Maybe there should be two separate threads, this one for the NY case as stated and another one for the Washington case ? IMHO

Being as everything in both lawsuit has this same Penti Kouri's signature on it, it seems about as silly to have two threads going as it does to have one guy start two lawsuits for the same one thing.

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@kronos

The Peg boards were sold at a loss at every step. The dealers made nothing $0.00 on the cost of a PEG board. What the dealers paid for the board is what they sold it for. They even took a loss on incoming shipping unless they added that onto the customers invoice. Peg dealers were supposed to make a profit on the system parts not on the board. Different business model not sustainable because it burns through capital. Purpose is to generate market penetration, drive competition bankrupt or cause to leave market. Money is supposed to be made once quantity drives cost down over time on future board sales. Cut throat business tactic that can cut ones own throat.

@tigger

A1boards shipped to UK
Customs charge on boards
Money to Hyperion for OS4
Money to AI for Name
Profits for Alan to make some money for his outlay
A1 boards were shipped to the US from the UK
There was a charge for customs paid by the US Dealer (Boards from the UK shipped only in lots greater than TEN. So no Kronos you could not hide that from customs without risk. Remember these were honest businessmen not crooks trying to save a few dollars by breaking the law )
There was the charge for shipping UK to US
US dealer made profit on board

Terrasoft
Import board from Taiwan.
Custom charge
Free OS
No License
Sold moderately cheaper not $300 dollars cheaper but yes sold cheaper.
If you compared US prices on terrasoft web site NON VAT
And prices on Eyetech web site Plus VAT yes you would come up with a higher number on the Eyetech web site but even then you would have to round the number wrong to come up with $300.00
Non vat cost was about $100 rounded up difference.

Also Boeing lost because of inferior design not because of some stupid animation. They had to strip down the plane in order to fly the prototype during certain tests. It tends to look really bad if you have to remove components from a plane in order for it to fly. IF YOU REALLY KNEW WHAT YOU CLAIM. YOU SHOULD OF KNOW THAT.

Kgrach

@kgrach

Alan a "honest buisnessmen" ??? You just made my day ........

Remember who was it (and still is) thats providing not just good quality, but also (warranty) support in case something did fail ...... remember who delayed, played down and ignored the most obvious failures till the warranty span on most board ran out (not that the rest would have had any warranty .....

Thats the kind of honesty the world need I would say.

"Pegs sold at loss" is just the usual BenFud BS, and anybody still repeating it in 2007 only makes a fool out of himself.

Peg1-prices were calculated based on components and production costs plus a little markup.
When they found out that MAI weren't able to deliver fully working chips, they just had to do some rather expensive fixes, but passing the price onto costumers was never an option (and yes something like that is normal buisness).

No Peg2 was sold at a loss.

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@kgrach

Quote:

Also Boeing lost because of inferior design not because of some stupid animation. They had to strip down the plane in order to fly the prototype during certain tests. It tends to look really bad if you have to remove components from a plane in order for it to fly. IF YOU REALLY KNEW WHAT YOU CLAIM. YOU SHOULD OF KNOW THAT.

Yes, it had to be stripped down during tests, but you couldn't do that on a carrier. Basically, the Navy would have to order two lots of JSFs: ones that do vertical-take off, and ones that don't. In that way the Boeing design is inferior to our current 30-year old Harriers which can do both.

The Lockheed design has its own problems. It has far too many moving parts. In 10 years time, the planes will probably spend most of their time on the ground being repaired. I'm not even sure if the UK is even getting any JSFs any more for our new super-carriers after the countries had a spat over UK leaking info to European "partners" that subsequently found its way to China. I think it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if we didn't although I'm not sure what the alternatives are.

@kgrach

Quote:

kgrach wrote: Non vat cost was about $100 rounded up difference.

Non vat difference was alot more then $100 different.


Quote:

Also Boeing lost because of inferior design not because of some stupid animation. They had to strip down the plane in order to fly the prototype during certain tests. It tends to look really bad if you have to remove components from a plane in order for it to fly. IF YOU REALLY KNEW WHAT YOU CLAIM. YOU SHOULD OF KNOW THAT.

I disagree that Boeing's aircraft was an inferior design, in fact the general concensus in the community is that Lockheed won because LMAero would have probably folded if it hadnt won and the British liked the new VTOL design vs what Boeing did which was basically a copy of the Harrier method since it was basically a British Design.
-Tig

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@smithy

Quote:

smithy wrote: Yes, it had to be stripped down during tests, but you couldn't do that on a carrier. Basically, the Navy would have to order two lots of JSFs: ones that do vertical-take off, and ones that don't. In that way the Boeing design is inferior to our current 30-year old Harriers which can do both.

You have to do that with the Lockheed design as well, but more so. The Air Force is getting the Model A, the VTOL is a model B (to replace the harriers) and the Model C have folded wings and stronger landing gear to for carrier landings.
-Tig

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@Samwel

Quote:

Samwel wrote: @number6 I don't understand this last document.. Extended for how long? Isn't there supposed to be a end date for how long the court has to wait for Amiga Inc.? It states extended to 30 July 2007. But this date has already gone by..

The judge just approved he extension to July 30th that the two lawyers had agreed to. So now we may see more documents about the case going forward from the judge.
-Tig

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@Tigger

Tigger are you able to tell what Alan payed for the A1 boards?
I mean so we can end this discussion about Eyetech over charging
or not.


@kgrach

Alan made this little worse than it had to be.
The US dealers should have made a consortium of some sort. Then every
board that was supposed to ship to the US could have been shipped there
directy from Taiwan. Much cheaper.
This should have been made for all market areas around the world.

But I understand why he did it the way he did. The dealers aren't so rich
anymore.. But his way was ALOT more expensive.

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@Tigger

Quote:

The judge just approved he extension to July 30th that the two lawyers had agreed to. So now we may see more documents about the case going forward from the judge.

So this document is actually more than a month old now?

How long after something happens in court does it take for a document to appear
on justia.com?

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@Kronos

Selling a board for what it costs you is a loss in bussines.!!!!!!
No if's ands or buts about that fact.
Fact a peg board was sold at no markup what so ever. So that means dealers lost money on shipping and on time. If you paid by credit card the dealer lost an additional 3~4%.

Thats not FUD Thats just a FACT!

Selling a board for manufacturing costs is also a loss.
People were paid to design that board.
People were paid to make the firmware.
People were paid to advertise and make web sites.
People were paid to port MOS to the board.
Accountants and attorneys were needed for the company.
Rent insurance Ect.
None of that money was recouped by the sales of those boards.
Becuase the boards were sold at cost!!!!!.
So FACT those boards were sold at a big loss to the company.

That not FUD just a true Fact.

You sir are the lost one here.
Not me I have all my facts. It is you who is sadly miss informed.

Kgrach

@Samwel

Some dealers did band together and that made a royal mess of the OS4 disc distribution. Dealers were trading boards back and forth so when the Disc's were sent out some dealers were shorted on disc's and other not so honest dealers used the extra disks for uA1 sales. Some gave them to people who were not entitled to get OS4 discs for free. Which is why you have some A1 owners without the serial numbers.

In retrospect the distribution should of been done better .

Kgrach

@kgrach

Heh yeah.. It's always easy to be smart in retrospect.

Something is really bad when probably more than 75% of the
cost of the end product has nothing to do with the cost of
manufacturing such a relatively expensive product.

I'd wager taxes (VAT, import, export), dealer cut and cost of
sending the boards several times (atleast three times) around
the world would make the lion share of the end price I paid for
my µA1.

IMO any board not sold as a complete system should have been
sold directly to customers by Eyetech.

Last edited by Samwel on 24-Aug-2007 at 02:54 AM.

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@kgrach

Quote:

Fact a peg board was sold at no markup what so ever.

Huh? The actual problems were, first, often there were no Pegs to sell due to on-and-off production or product needing to go to "major customers" like Freescale, and second, Genesi soon was selling Peg boards from the online store at the same price dealers were paying for them. Unlike the mainstream market, most Pegasos buyers wanted to put together their own systems and didn't need or want a dealer to do it, especially since all the other parts are off-the-shelf, which knocks the bottom out of Genesi's vision of the role of Pegasos dealers. There were a lot of bad feelings around trying to get Peg sales going by retailers, due to interactions (or lack thereof) with Genesi's staff at the time, from what I was hearing then. But I don't know what basis there is for your "Pegs selling at a loss" etc.

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@gary_c

Quote:

gary_c wrote: But I don't know what basis there is for your "Pegs selling at a loss" etc.

He doesnt have a basis, I ran the part list years ago and showed that Peg2s cost more then what it would have cost to have us make them, but Peg 2 were sold at a loss thats why AmigaOnes werent too expensive is part of Bens master plan and some are still marching to it even now.
-Tig

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@kgrach

Factor in the real development costs of OS4 and the Escena-board and Alan would have sold the A1s at a loss ....... but Alan never had to pay the real cost of OS4 and there is no reason why consumers had to pay for the Escena-scam.

Fact is Alan sold the boards for more than he had to pay for them, and Genesi sold them for more than they paid for parts and production.

And here the expected car-analogy:

When VW started phasing out the beetle (and it's cousins) in the 70s they first developed a rather crude middle-engine car before the finally went with the Audi-base design that ended up as Golf/Rabbit/Jetta.

Do you really think VW should have past on the costs for the failed design to costumers ? Even more so to those that bought Golf in the 1st year of production ? The Golf would have been far to expensive that way, and maybe VW wouldn't be any more.

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@Kronos

Quote:

Do you really think VW should have past on the costs for the failed design to costumers ? Even more so to those that bought Golf in the 1st year of production ? The Golf would have been far to expensive that way, and maybe VW wouldn't be any more.

lol!!!!!!!!! Do you think a company doesn't pass on it's losses on to the customer?? You think that they just eat #### when it comes to losses and then just come up with new design and only factor in what it costs to build the new design and sell it?? "Oh it's a ok Fred we don't need to make back the $32 billion we lost on the last project we can just be nice and only make 10 dollars profit on each of these new cars if we want."

Sure. That's how it works. Of course VW SHOULD have passed on it losses to the customer. That's the cost of doing business, if they didn't they would NO LONGER "BE" in business. Good damn, no one in Amiga Land knows how to run a company, do they??

I mean you guys are bitching about an Amiga hardware company trying to make a profit, you sound so ridiculous. This isn't a charity. Maybe one day UNICEFF will get into to the Amiga Motherboard production business, but until then you'll have to pay fair market value, which is what everyone else it paying. I.E. Looks like Alan sold "ALL" his AmigaOnes at whatever ridiculous price he was asking. Maybe that's why you guys are really mad.

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@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

AmigaHeretic wrote: I mean you guys are bitching about an Amiga hardware company trying to make a profit, you sound so ridiculous.

You really need to reread the thread. I'm not bitching about Alan making money, I dont care if Alan made money, I care when people lie and say Alan lost money on every board he sold and just got into for the good of the amiga community. Alan got involved because AI offered him an exclusive license for the hardware for the new OS4, in fact Alan has said he only got involved because he got the exclusive license. Alan made $312 more per unit then Terrasoft was going to, and Terrasoft wasnt going to be losing money per unit. I'm not saying hardware should be free, I'm not saying Amiga Hardware companies shouldnt make a profit, I'm arguing they did make a profit, which is contrary to post I responded to on this thread that started my interaction on it. Newtek made alot of money on there Amiga Hardware and continue to make alot of money on there new hardware VTs + addons + Tricasters. My company makes alot of money on our hardware, but the difference is that neither we nor Newtek has shills going around saying that we never made any money, and we are in it for the good of the community, which they then use as an excuse for poor service and lousy support.
-Tig

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@AmigaHeretic

Offcourse they have to pass on losses, but to all costumers and within a reasonable timeframe. And yes if the losses are so big that they can't be passed on without loosing market-share it's the company (and it's shareholders) that has to swallow it.


What Kgrach is demanding is similar to passing on the losses only to peolple buying a Golf within the 1st year of production, a measurre that would have made the car to expensive for the market.

And guess what would have happened next ...... costumers would have been buying the offerings from the likes of Opel (GM) and Ford, leaving VW with even more losses to swallow.


So yes, bPlan/Genesi were (and are) making profit on every board sold, there are making more money the more boards get sold, wether thats enough to keep the whole company afloat is a completly different matter.

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