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HammerD 
Re: MorphOS on Mac Mini
Posted on 6-Sep-2008 21:40:03
#41 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Oct-2003
Posts: 898
From: Ontario, Canada

@itix

The biggest problem with the amiga-ish OS's is that there is no full memory protection and resource tracking. That makes all amiga OS's prone to crashing sooner rather than later.

If there was some way to sand-box legacy apps and then re-write apps to take advantage of a new fully memory protected system (while still retaining the same look and feel) that would be a HUGE and MAJOR improvement.

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itix 
Re: MorphOS on Mac Mini
Posted on 6-Sep-2008 21:45:50
#42 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3390
From: Freedom world

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Quote:

magellan to begin with?

MorphOS users are basing there idea that MorphOS runs 680x0 programs better on one single application?


SnoopDOS 68k. 99% of software using SetFunction() fails to work on OS4. It could be discussed how useful it is but MorphOS by design does not block those applications out. And of course porting is easier because there are less issues to fix.

Of course there is no Snoopy for OS4 and Snoopium for MorphOS (which is based on SnoopDOS).

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Stephen_Robinson 
Re: MorphOS on Mac Mini
Posted on 6-Sep-2008 21:54:17
#43 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Apr-2005
Posts: 1991
From: UK

@itix
er.. I'm possibly missing the 'joke' here, but:-
http://os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=utility/filetool/snoopy.lha

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itix 
Re: MorphOS on Mac Mini
Posted on 6-Sep-2008 22:04:31
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3390
From: Freedom world

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

MorphOS support software hack, AmigaOS4 does not support hack, where hacks helps Compability for MorphOS I don't think so, because they are undocumented features only where few know about, so it only tiny percent of programs that will use this.


What is hack and what not is not so easy. BlacksEditor (BED) had long standing problem in MorphOS where it failed to copy text to clipboard in certain situation. It was long thought that application just was faulty and bug was triggered only in MorphOS but finally it was found out that it (maybe accidentally) relied on an undocumented side effect in clipboard.device or iffparse.library (cant remember which one).

Was it bug or not? I dont know. This subtle undocumented feature (or lack of it) made this application to fail in MorphOS. Not many use BlacksEditor anymore but it is still my favorite editor.

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itix 
Re: MorphOS on Mac Mini
Posted on 6-Sep-2008 22:09:26
#45 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3390
From: Freedom world

@Stephen_Robinson

I know about Snoopy (didnt I write about it above?).

Snoopy has been available since end of 2006 while SnoopDOS has been available many many years before. And not many old Amiga users know about new software but like to try their existing software first and SnoopDOS also appears to be more advanced in features than Snoopy (this gap obviously narrows when development goes on). Happy coding.

Last edited by itix on 06-Sep-2008 at 10:16 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: MorphOS on Mac Mini
Posted on 6-Sep-2008 22:53:13
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10736
From: Norway

@itix

Quote:
SnoopDOS 68k. 99% of software using SetFunction() fails to work on OS4


Not really just that does not effect the PowerPC side, only the old 680x0 API, SnoopDOS is there for not where useful for debugging anymore.

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Toaks 
Re: MorphOS on Mac Mini
Posted on 6-Sep-2008 22:56:14
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 8034
From: amigaguru.com

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Toaks

Quote:
Compability wise Morphos is better than OS4


Thats very exaggerated.


No its not, i have both systems and even if i am biased towards OS4 (since i am in the team and all) i STILL think compability towards os friendly stuff is better on MorphOS compared to OS4.

I am not saying OS4 sucks in this area but still MorphOS is dooing a better job at running old os friendly games and i should know as i am a Gamer/software geek.

http://toaks.kicks-ass.net

PS: as for your PAULA and CIAA/b comment... it just shows how much you actually DON'T know about MorphOS, yes they actually run games/apps using thoose things on PEG's-MorphOS with various hacks/implementations, we have simmilar approaches on A1-OS4 but neither of thoose (THE ONES ON/FOR OS4) is actually dooing such a good job at it.

And don't even get me started on the keyboard -> joystick mapper, a feature we where supposed to get in amigainput ages ago....MorphOS has had it for longer than i can remeber.

Last edited by Toaks on 06-Sep-2008 at 11:04 PM.
Last edited by Toaks on 06-Sep-2008 at 11:01 PM.

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Fab 
Re: MorphOS on Mac Mini
Posted on 7-Sep-2008 1:39:10
#48 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2004
Posts: 1178
From: Unknown

@Toaks

About wipeout, you're right. Some patch is needed to avoid some debug to chipmem. I don't think it patched anything else, but I would have to try without the patch to be sure.

Just to illustrate a bit more, I can list a few more things that come to my mind:
- mawi demos don't run under OS4 AFAIR. To be noted some got broken under MorphOS2 too since. Also OS4 "Zero" demo still runs on MorphOS+OS4Emu while it doesn't anymore on OS4 (now that's a bit ironic :)).
- GoldED6.x broke since the new memory system was introduced (because it used the "undocumented" ptr[-1] "trick", not supported by the new system). Not a big issue since there are newer versions anyway.
- Delitracker still works on morphos2. I remember at some point it didn't under OS4, but it may have changed since.

I'm sure we could find some more, but I'm actually not using that many "old" apps besides magellan here, so i couldn't make an exhaustive list, and it doesn't make much sense to do so anyway. The point was just to illustrate some statement. :)

Good to see wosemu was reintroduced as a separate contribution, i hadn't noticed that.

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pixie 
Re: MorphOS on Mac Mini
Posted on 7-Sep-2008 1:51:25
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2645
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@Toaks

Quote:
Compability wise Morphos is better than OS4 but thats because they choose to stay in the past (which is very important to alot of people) with certain components and backbones.

There's a difference between staying in the past and being faithfull to what AmigaOS is... AmigaSO 4 is well stuck in the past, it's not that much better in that regard then MorphOS is.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: MorphOS on Mac Mini
Posted on 7-Sep-2008 7:30:46
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10736
From: Norway

@Toaks

Quote:
with various hacks/implementations, we have similar approaches on A1-OS4 but neither of those (THE ONES ON/FOR OS4) is actually dooing such a good job at it.


Are you thinking about :

blitzen.lha: Blitter emulator for OS4 machines without chipset
ciagent.lha: Minimal CIA resources and hardware simulator
nallepuh.lha: NallePUH (Paula emulation) for OS4 / AmigaOne
timerhack.lha: makes timer.device to tick at PAL clock
td64patch.lha: Patches NSD64 (OS4) devices to support also TD64

I think NallePuh was integrated in to OS4 at some point,
blitzen and ciagent are bit experimental.

I think there is memory hack some where to add the missing size in front of allocated memory problem.

Quote:
And don't even get me started on the keyboard -> joystick mapper, a feature we where supposed to get in amigainput ages ago....MorphOS has had it for longer than i can remember.


Thats way I wrote AmigaInputAnywhere program.

http://os4depot.net/filedata/snapshot/3655_2_snap.jpg
http://os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=utility/hardware/amigainputanyware.lha

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Sep-2008 at 08:10 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Sep-2008 at 08:08 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Sep-2008 at 08:03 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Sep-2008 at 07:32 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: MorphOS on Mac Mini
Posted on 7-Sep-2008 7:52:13
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10736
From: Norway

@Fab

Quote:
"Zero" demo still runs on MorphOS+OS4Emu while it doesn't anymore on OS4 (now that's a bit ironic :)).


OS4 lost the screen mode that Zero needs, guess its posibol to hack this screenmodes back in, it shuld not take me long to make patch like that, but thats one single demo that needs this.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Sep-2008 at 07:54 AM.

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pavlor 
Re: MorphOS on Mac Mini
Posted on 7-Sep-2008 8:08:24
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8487
From: Unknown

@itix

Quote:
What much needed features OS4 actually implements?


Is paged memory planned for MorphOS?

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Stephen_Robinson 
Re: MorphOS on Mac Mini
Posted on 7-Sep-2008 8:15:24
#53 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Apr-2005
Posts: 1991
From: UK

@pavlor

Funny how the whole world is moving ayway from harddrive* space as Memory to simply having enough memory to not need it (until of course Windows gets so bloated 4gig of memory is too little) have a look a this thread from OS news:
http://www.osnews.com/comments/20238

We're rushing towards it! Well, maybe not rushing, but you know what I mean.

*assuming that's what you mean by paging, if not sorry for misunderstanding!

Last edited by Stephen_Robinson on 07-Sep-2008 at 09:44 AM.
Last edited by Stephen_Robinson on 07-Sep-2008 at 08:18 AM.

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pavlor 
Re: MorphOS on Mac Mini
Posted on 7-Sep-2008 8:35:48
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8487
From: Unknown

@Stephen_Robinson

But 2 GB of RAM (or MorphOS supports more?) arenn´t enough.

PowerPC can address 4 PB of virtual memory...

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pixie 
Re: MorphOS on Mac Mini
Posted on 7-Sep-2008 9:24:58
#55 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2645
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@pavlor

Windows 32bits has a 3+1Gb memory limit and I assure you that hardisk swap won't make it any bigger

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Toaks 
Re: MorphOS on Mac Mini
Posted on 7-Sep-2008 9:32:30
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 8034
From: amigaguru.com

@NutsAboutAmiga

you fail to see my point here, if we added all theese hacks and patches into OS4...how diffrent would it then be to..lets say OS3.5.

stuff like the ones u mentioned are not os friendly per se, they do things that in general we would not want it to do (as it brings stuff down and in many cases what it does is far from good (and may crash you system*/program)

Nallepuh is not integrated into OS4, never has...never will, what was done was that we added something that would make it a wee bit more compatible with paula actions and in the same throw we actually made Nallepuh useless (which i still think is not the best thing we have done...as Nallepuh was more compattable).

Timerhack... don't even get me started.

as for your AmigaInputAnywhere, great, seriously i never saw that before now and i will install that instantly but that said, i still think we need an internal function to do this job instead of a third party one.


So that brings me back to Morphos, neither of the ones u mentioned are anywhere near how Morphos runs older games, yes we have some tools *hacks too (as i have said atleast 3 times before) but they simply don't cut it... just yet (and to me... not much has happened the last 4 years (except for CIAagent/blitzen.)


Well done with your AmigaInputAnywhere, thanks for that one.
PS: maybe you should have told everyone what it was from the start! (news items etc) ..maybe you did but i did not see it before u mentioned it now :(

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: MorphOS on Mac Mini
Posted on 7-Sep-2008 9:32:31
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10736
From: Norway

@pixie

Quote:
PowerPC can address 4 PB of virtual memory...


Thats a 32bit PowerPC, and thats 4GB of address space,

"virtual / shared / private memory all share the same address space."

Where that address space is maped to Physical RAM or blocks on your harddrive is irrelevant.

more Physical RAM, less address space for swap.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Sep-2008 at 09:45 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: MorphOS on Mac Mini
Posted on 7-Sep-2008 9:39:59
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10736
From: Norway

@Toaks

Quote:
PS: maybe you should have told everyone what it was from the start! (news items etc) ..maybe you did but i did not see it before u mentioned it now :(


At Time I wrote program AmigaInput was too buggy update3/4, final did not have it, Classic has it, AmigaOS4.1 has it.

Also the first version of AmigaInputAnywhere where where experimental and minimal, so I decided it was not worth a news item.

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Stephen_Robinson 
Re: MorphOS on Mac Mini
Posted on 7-Sep-2008 9:43:34
#59 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Apr-2005
Posts: 1991
From: UK

@pavlor

2 gig of memory not enough? I was doing fine on 512 in my µA1! In fact I've got 1 gig in my Peg1, and was thinking of taking out the second stick of ram, as it's not been used and slows down the boot process as the bios (err... type thingy) takes longer to test it...

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Toaks 
Re: MorphOS on Mac Mini
Posted on 7-Sep-2008 9:45:35
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 8034
From: amigaguru.com

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Toaks

Also the first version of AmigaInputAnywhere where where experimental and minimal, so I decided it was not worth a news item.


Fair enough, just tried it now and it works as it should, thanks again!.

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