@samface

But according your defnition, there is already a Amiga OS that is capable of being very scalable that works on multiple hardware platforms and virtual machines natively or hosted without any major difference in its performance as well as memory footprint. There is also plenty of documention as well as SDKs for its two main APIs that are out for it already as well as more being written. That OS is AROS.

@ReverseGTR

1. AROS is AROS, not an Amiga OS. The old AmigaOS3.x APIs are dead and even AROS is going to have to drop it or atleast put it in some kind of "sandbox" sooner or later if it's ever going to evolve.

2. AROS provides no virtualization technology of any kind. There's not even a usable Java VM for it.

3.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@DiscreetFX

Are we a little sour because they didn't give you the Amiga IP portfolio for the price you were prepared to pay? Sorry if that sounds demeaning but, your blog is taking things down to that level, IMO. Such pulic mudslinging isn't very becoming for someone who used to have such ambitions. Furthermore, you should know better than to bundle such biased article with a vote. It's like the NY Times writing an article about a certain brand of clothes made using child labor and then have a poll about what people think of that brand of clothes. The outcome is quite predictable, wouldn't you say?

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Because Amiga did not take us up on our buyout the brand is even worth less today. Amiga Inc. have turned it into a joke, sorry to have to say that. What have they done for the past 8 years? Not too much. What Amiga Inc. expects to sell the brand for is nowhere near reality. Our blog post is true though, without the help of many innovative 3rd party developers AA2 is dead.

Last edited by DiscreetFX on 08-Feb-2008 at 02:33 AM.
Last edited by DiscreetFX on 08-Feb-2008 at 02:33 AM.
Last edited by DiscreetFX on 08-Feb-2008 at 02:32 AM.

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@samface

You seemed to not even remotely touch on the subject of my post. If you did you would have realized there is a version that runs hosted on Linux. Perhaps you can even consider anyone who runs AROS through a virtual machine makes it in a sense sandboxed.

As for a Java VM for AROS, all I can say is why bother? The OS is light and flexible enough already. Also why bother with a commercial code when a programmer can do plenty when using C, XML, XDME or Python within Zune? The only way that can change is if the OS becomes as large as Windows, Ubuntu or even OS4. But what do you think of the chances of that happening?

However, I think a small open-source project is more likely to succeed then one coming from a business that has had problems honoring rebates and paying rent.

Last edited by ReverseGTR on 08-Feb-2008 at 03:41 AM.
Last edited by ReverseGTR on 08-Feb-2008 at 03:39 AM.
Last edited by ReverseGTR on 08-Feb-2008 at 03:26 AM.

@ReverseGTR

Quote:

ReverseGTR wrote: @samface I am wondering why should I even respond to someone who seems to have touched on any of my post because if you did you would have realised there is a version that runs hosted on Linux. Or perhaps you can even consider anyone who runs it through a virtual machine is in a sense sandboxed?

*Any* OS can be run in a sandbox. However, that doesn't make the OS any hypervisor like, maybe the sandbox itself but not the OS.

Quote:

As for a Java VM for AROS, all I can say is why bother? The OS is light and flexiple enough for any language to just be directly introduced into it. But why bother with commercial code when a programmer can do plenty when using C, XML, XDME and Python? The only way that can change is if the OS becomes as large as Windows, Ubuntu or even OS4.

Virtualization would be a way to get more applications for your otherwise extremely poorly supported operating system and could also be a way to run your applications on just as many different hardware architectures as AROS runs without a recompile of your applications and without using emulation.

Quote:

I also think a small open-source project is more likely to succeed then one coming from a business that has had problems honoring rebates and paying rent. And at least we know where AROS will eventually stand on the issue of how to run AmigaOS 3.1 and older programs, has Amiga.inc even acknowledged anything Amiga in AA2 aside from its name or history?

I respectfully disagree.

Last edited by samface on 08-Feb-2008 at 03:41 AM.
Last edited by samface on 08-Feb-2008 at 03:40 AM.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@DiscreetFX

Quote:

DiscreetFX wrote: @samface Because Amiga did not take us up on our buyout the brand is even worth less today.

Sure. Not selling is somehing we all know will decrease demand.

Quote:

Amiga Inc. have turned it into a joke, sorry to have to say that.

You are of course free to have your sense of humour.

Quote:

What have they done for the past 8 years? Not too much.

Well, whatever they have been doing during these years, it's their business, literally, isn't it?

Quote:

What Amiga Inc. expects to sell the brand for is nowhere near reality.

Or, maybe they just don't want to sell? In fact, I don't think a real offer to sell was made to begin with. Not even a proper valuation of the assets. They just gave you a ball park figure over the phone or e-mail, now didn't they?

Quote:

Our blog post is true though, without the help of many innovative 3rd party developers AA2 is dead.

Well, given that you are throwing this kind of mud around, that might very well become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If it's such a bad product, I'm sure it will face the fate it deserves anyway, without your proclamations of doom, don't you agree?

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Amiga Inc. never gave us a proper valuation of the their assets, that is true. Financial information was asked from them but not provided. They were open to selling but only for a price they could not back up with proper valuation. In business not paying rent, employees and being sued in court and losing are all bad signs.

Last edited by DiscreetFX on 08-Feb-2008 at 04:08 AM.
Last edited by DiscreetFX on 08-Feb-2008 at 04:07 AM.

_________________
Sent from my Quantum Computer.

@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: *Any* OS can be run in a sandbox. However, that doesn't make the OS any hypervisor like, maybe the sandbox itself but not the OS.

I wasn't aware we were in a discussion concerning hypervisors? As for a sandboxed OS, can any run smoothly if even the host hardware has as little as 64mbs of RAM?

Quote:

Virtualization would be a way to get more applications for your otherwise extremely poorly supported operating system and could also be a way to run your applications on just as many different hardware architectures as AROS runs without a recompile of your applications and without using emulation.

That is great and all but if the OS is simple to program for and there are tools available to compile application from a host OS to it, what demand would a VM within it fufill? In fact, adding a virtual machine will slow it down concerning running it within a host OS or virtual machine.

Notice no use of implicating pronouns or insulting adjectives?

Last edited by ReverseGTR on 08-Feb-2008 at 04:24 AM.

@DiscreetFX

Quote:

DiscreetFX wrote: @samface Amiga Inc. never gave us a proper valuation of the their assets, that is true. Financial information was asked from them but not provided. They were open to selling but only for a price they could not back up with proper valuation.

You sound like they would have a legal obligation to sell and that the price would have to be decided by some standard valuation method that according to you would tell the price they have to sell to you for. Guess what? They obviously don't have to sell you anything and if they would decide to sell, they can ask basicly any price they want. The unrealisticly high amount of money that they suggested which you keep complaining about tells me exactly that.

Quote:

In business not paying rent, employees and being sued in court and losing are all bad signs.

Now you're just mixing up the old Amiga Inc. known as Amino today with the new Amiga Inc. formerly known as KMOS. The new Amiga Inc. seems to have much better finances, having bought that software development company in India and spending quite alot on the legal battle with Hyperion and all. Let's hope this renewed financial strentgh comes to some good.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@Nobody or anybody

Interesting. It's obviously possible to make empty posts. I pressed reply by mistake, then submit by mistake and suddenly an empty post was made. For whom that may be interested, this would be solved with an extra "if" in the $_POST recieving php script that compares the string inserted in an empty reply form (ie "@$username") with the string recieved from the submitted reply form to see if the value has been changed at all. If not, it's quite obviously a post made by mistake that should be rejected. Although, I understand if nobody feels it's important enough to investigate. Just saying...

...ok, I am damaged by my work. :P

Last edited by samface on 08-Feb-2008 at 05:33 AM.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@ReverseGTR

As an OS, AROS is completely of no interest to me. It has no technical merit that isn't already in the original AmigaOS and suffers from the same obselete and/or lack of features in comparison with what you'd expect from a modern OS. And, it's irrelevant to what we're discussing here.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface


Of course Amiga Inc. don't have to sell at all to anyone at any price. If they want to be taken seriously though and want the Amiga market to thrive they should invest in Amiga developers the amount of money they gained (swindled?) on the coupon T-Shirt fiasco. What was it? $50,000-$70,000? This amount of money invested in 3rd party Amiga developments even though it's small could really strengthen the development community. They don't have to invest this in DiscreetFX, we don't need their money but putting it towards Amiga developers could mend some of the bad feelings and make more applications available. If they are as rich as you say, what is that small amount of money to them?

It is time to put their money where their mouth is, not ex-Microsoft lawyers but instead talented, young smart Amiga developers. Time and time again it has been proven innovative applications sell platforms. I think the fact that Amiga Inc. has invested $0 to date in Amiga projects speaks volumes about their intent.

Last edited by DiscreetFX on 08-Feb-2008 at 05:47 AM.

_________________
Sent from my Quantum Computer.

@samface

Quote:

. Amiga Inc.'s idea never was to simply make another Java-like solution and it's always been a part of their plan to make a full blown OS capable of running hosted as well as stand-alone, also known as AmigaOS5.

Sure, whatever.

However, operating systems are what runs on top of a hypervisor. So even if we somehow believed that AA2 had grown into OS5 and was a full-blown OS capable of running stand-alone, that would *still* not make it anything like a Hypervisor.
It would be something which could run on top of a hypervisor, but that doesn't make it "like a hypervisor" any more than me driving in a Beetle makes me "like a Beetle".

Can you point out *anything* that makes a "middleware solution" (straight from AI's FAQ) "like a hypervisor" (your words)?

Quote:

And just because there is no OS compatible with it yet, that doesn't make it more Java-like nor less capable as a hypervisor.

OSs are compatible with bare metal hardware; Hypervisors provide virtualised bare metal hardware. So if your hypervisor is any good, OSs which would run on the bare metal will also run on the hypervisor.
If you instead go and extend your hypervisor into a full emulation, then any OS which would run on the emulated system will run on your hypervisor.

If you further decide to make your emulated system one that uses a CPU which does not exist, and for which no software currently exists, and then proceed to write an OS in this emulated, non-existent CPU's instruction set, and then put applications on top of your OS --- then what the heck do you need the hypervisor for? You are in complete control of the OS and the application code. Hypervisors are tools to make up pretend hardware for an existing code base; A code base over which the developer of the hypervisor typically has only limited control.

Anyway --- do you have *any* evidence that AA2 is conceptually different from SDL? Not something you could imagine, but something verifiable that someone in the know has actually said, or shown, or done?

@DiscreetFX

Quote:

Our blog post is true though, without the help of many innovative 3rd party developers AA2 is dead.

I hate to disagree with you here, but case in point, it can't be dead as there is not a single shread of proof it ever existed in the first place.

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@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @ReverseGTR As an OS, AROS is completely of no interest to me. It has no technical merit that isn't already in the original AmigaOS and suffers from the same obselete and/or lack of features in comparison with what you'd expect from a modern OS. And, it's irrelevant to what we're discussing here.

Can you tell what "specific" technical aspects of AA2 you find so far superior to AROS and OS3.9 and prior?? And I mean specific "technical" features of the AA2 product.

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@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @ReverseGTR As an OS, AROS is completely of no interest to me. It has no technical merit that isn't already in the original AmigaOS and suffers from the same obselete and/or lack of features in comparison with what you'd expect from a modern OS. ...

Fully agreed.

But as I already sugested in an other posting, let's see the AmigaOS as what it was designed:
as an Operating System for Homecomputers.

And as far as I know there is no "modern OS" for Homecomputers - so a comparison with any "modern OS" makes no sense, IMHO...

Let's not try to compete with industrial standards - let Amiga set the benchmark for homecomputers...

_________________
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Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@umisef

I have been looking at the SDL site you referred. Clearly something like SDL would be needed, but unless I am mistaken completely I cannot see how one compile would work across CPU families.

A thin layerappraoch of some kind would have to be present --- allegro might even be better and I think REBOL 3 is looking in that direction (to what extent I do not know?)

I know TAO is out of the picture, but I keep comming back to compiling to a virtualizided CPU and Jitting away from there.

Presuming i am reading AIs claims correctly, I keep going back to the same circle.

REBOL 3 will pull off the trick, I think, in the easiest possible manner, the core and its plugins with be ported, the real trick will be to generalise the plugins well enough that a script based application environment will not be a slow one. REBOL 3 may have a great edge in this simpler approach, if this is indeed how they are going about it.

AA2 can't be doing anything like this, the only thing I can come up with is that apps are compiled into a virtualisied assembly and then compiled on installation. That would not be a bad solution.

Install/compile would seem perhaps the most likely solution unless AI has redone TAO somehow.

If anyone has any other possible suggestions I would be interested in learning about them.

_________________
Greg Schofield, Perth Australia

@samface

Quote:

samface wrote: @DiscreetFX ... They obviously don't have to sell you anything and if they would decide to sell, they can ask basicly any price they want. ...

Of course they can ask basicly any price they want - but if they really want to sell, the single word "reasonable" should be added:

"They obviously don't have to sell you anything and if they would decide to sell, they can ask basicly any reasonable price they want."

If they demand an unreasonable amount of money, they can't expect to sell.
Either they reduce their postulation or they will have a hard time to find an purchaser - I think you agree.

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@GregS

Quote:

If anyone has any other possible suggestions I would be interested in learning about them.

They are using stolen TAO code anyway hoping they don't get caught, because A) TAO went under and 2) They are small right now and can stay under radar, hoping they make somemoney and can "someday" hire a programmer to come up with a solution of their own.

Just a guess though........ Hence I don't think AA2 exists... It's just AA, but they need to change the name for legal reason. But these guys would never play "SHELL" games to get out of owing money!!!

_________________
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back in my day, we didn't have water. We only had Oxygen & Hydrogen, & we'd just shove 'em together